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antarctica24
04-22-2016, 07:52 AM
So if you have not read my build thread, just to give some background I like RAMMAUDIO, have extensive car and home audio experience. I have owned two car and home theater stores, competed Expert 601+ for 4 years in IASCA, Judged SQ for another 12, and have received full sponsorships from Pioneer, Nordost, A/D/S, and Kimber Kable, Dyomat, blah blah blah. Moving On.

So the problem has been how to get a really good clean signal from the head unit to an outboard processor or amp.

Option1, get the schematic from Ford and access the signal before it is sent to the speakers and before it is processed. This is not going to happen. There is the possibility that Downtown Radio (national repair center for oem radios), might be willing to give up the schematics but then if RAMMAUDIO cant make the modification we have to find someone and I am fairly certain he would not want to start up a radio conversion business. Maybe?

The dash kit that Metra Currently has on their website WILL NOT WORK. Trust me on this I tried. Yes its ugly but when you want the best sound quality, sacrifices have to be made.
When you pull the CD player out it appears to have the satellite radio antenna connected to it, and probably has the speakers coming out it, so it is self contained. I have not seen any posts here to indicate otherwise, so if I have misspoken I apologize.

Metra sources tell me a kit is in the works. But no one here seems to like the way their kits look.

Previously some have been doing a LOC from the rear speakers to a sub amp. Not a problem because 99% of what you are listening to is below 60 hertz provided that is where you crossed it over and although distortion is present not very audible at those levels.

If Sound Quality is what you are looking for, there may now be another option.

The JL Audio Clean Sweep was ok at best. It sort of worked, and there are a couple of processors out there like the Bit one that take a high level signal try to reprocess it back to flat. I was a dealer for Audison and from a usability standpoint, tuning with the Bit One is not hard. You need a scope with a 1hz tone on a CD (to properly set the gains), and an RTA (Real Time Analyzer). The PS8 from ARC, the MS8 from JBL, and even Audio Control has a piece, but theirs requires you make the adjustments.

JL Audio now has a device called the FIX 82. You feed it signals from the left and right front midrange which are full range signals because we have a wire that goes from there to a cap on the tweeter so it is crossed over at the source. One of the problems with the Ford Sync system is it requires a load to function correctly. You don't see this problem when just hooking up a sub or replacing speakers. JL Audio has a device called a LSA. The causes the system to see a proper load, then you run from their into the FIX 82.

You set the volume on your Sync system, insert a CD, and put the Fix 82 into learn mode. It not only corrects all of Ford's mess, but what you get on the other side is a completely flat signal to work with. Now, if you have been following RAMMAUDIO, he purchased a processor made by Precision Power. While the instructions say it is a 2-way, it actually is a 4 way. It has the ability to control not only a left and right tweeter, left and right midrange, but left and right mid-bass and 2 subs. I had the Bit One in my Corvette, and had purchased a PS8 from Arc Audio as RAMMAUDIO did, but we both sold ours just for different reasons, he thought is was more processing that what he needed. Fred Lynch at Arc helped develop that piece, and it has more processing than some small recording studios. I sold it because it was missing the bluetooth streaming module that they are never going to develop.

Here is where it gets really nice.
The FIX 82, has Toslink Fiber out. That means I can install this box upfront where the speaker wires are, and then run a fiber cable to the rear for the processor. Fiber is king. Now you get into a whole other world of audio geekdom. Do you use plastic or att glass fiber. Sorry I digress.

Anyway, some here are true OEM people. They don't want to lose any functionality of the factory system. Well, there is a downside to everything. As with the Bitone, and some of the other processors, there is a downside to the DSP-88R. When you send Fiber to the DSP-88R, you no longer have an analog signal and therefore no volume control from the head unit. That means no more steering wheel control for volume or from the factory dash location. But the DSP-88R does have a really small nice volume control to use. If you have competed at any time in your life and ever worked outside of the box to get the best audio possible from a bad situation, Mark Eldridge with the help of Gary Biggs, created a 4.5 inch billet aluminum volume knob. Every time I judged his car, I had to wipe my mouth. Imagine putting your whole hand on the center console to turn this thing. OMG. Anyway

You lose the Steer wheel controls for Volume and because the processing is volume dependent in the Ford Sync system, you cannot ever change the volume on the Ford System after installing the Fix 82. So when configuring it, you set it to something high like 75% which should be out of distortion range for the factory amplification.

Now it gets better. I am installing a 12" Ipad Pro in my car to use for work on a Stalk. There are hundreds of Digital to Analog converters to use with IPADS. It just so happens that the DSP-88R has a set of Analog inputs so your digital music just got 1000 times better than anything the factory system could put out. But you still get access to the radio, satellite, radio, Bluetooth phone, and CD from the factory system.

The only other downside is the DSP-88R only has 4 volts of output. But fear not, a nice set of Audio Control line drivers or from Arc Audio fixes that problem and that is something that is necessary when you have a pair of amps that will take 6.5 volts of input. [cool]

I purchased 2 Alpine PDX v9's. They are 100 x 4, and 500 x 1. JL Audio makes a new subwoofer called a TW1 in 10" and 12" and they also sell this in a prebuilt enclosure. But this is not any ordinary sub enclosure. The 10" enclosure is 21" wide, 12" tall and 6" deep. The Duel 12" is 26 x 14 x 8. That is really really small for what it is. It weights 50lbs. I am generally not a 12" guy from a SQ point of view, but these were really impressive sounding.

Now before anyone jumps on me about weight. I do not race my car. I do drive it aggressively and might take it to the track after installing the new turbo and adding 150 lbs to the car, taking out the spare and replacing it with a kit, and perhaps swapping out the crashbar, and having replaced the brakes, and struts with coilovers, it is not quite adding 150 lbs. If nothing else, it balances out the car more because of where I am adding the weight.

I'm still on the cliff regarding drivers. I had a complete set of K-2 from focal and I sold them. So for the bidbass driver I am either going to use a Morel 6" or a Dynaudio 6.5". Yes they are expensive, but I take sound much more seriously than I do anything else. They are about $350.00 each.

As for the midrange more than likely the Seas MU10RB-SL which is a 4" or the SEAS Prestige MCA12RC which is a 4.5". The tweeter will either be a ScanSpeak Illuminator D3004/6600 AirCirc Tweeter Textile Dome or ScanSpeak Illuminator R3004/6620-00 1" Tweeter - Black Face Plate. Yes they are pricey, but it would not be the first time I had gone there, but it very well may be the last. In a couple of months I will be leaving my Accident Photography job and moving out west. HEHE (dyn085), closer than you probably would want. Anway, I want to enjoy the car.

While some may ask why on the dash configuration, Let me include a picture.
9651

This was my Fiero back in April 1998 and 1999. The one in Car Stereo Review, Car Sound of Japan an Car Stereo of the UK. Blah Blah Blah I know. The red thing in the floor covered up by the mat was the right side subwoofer port. The subs were in a 4th order bandpass enclosure in the front of this car. It hit so hard you almost felt like your heart was skipping a beat.

I intend to place either 2 4" or 2 4.5" midrange drivers with tweeter on the dash of this car. What you are doing is taking a D'Appolito configuration and turning it sideways. What it does is give you a recording studio monitor effect. Sort of in your face impact. The stage is not quite as wide as it would be with a traditional 2 way with tweeter to the far outside with mid-bass in the door, but the sound it creates is like nothing you have ever experienced in a car. This is why the car got so much attention. It had two tweeters mounted vertically and each one had a different crossover point so you could raise on lower the stage. What it also does is give you stupid depth, way beyond the windshield. The VP of design for Pioneer Electronics Worldwide sat in the car for over an hour at the Dallas Finals. He also got a little giddy about all of the work I did to upgrade the ODR processor output stage. Blah Blah blah. By they way, When I was done competing, Pioneer bought my processor from me.

Anyway, just thought I would share, this is going to happen very soon. Amps come today, Processor will be here in the next day or so. And doing all of this while still trying to finish getting the Turbo upgrade settled and tuned while trying to maintain a goofy conversation with Dyn085 and Hijinx, and VAFIST. Still love you guys. OMG its a lot.

Ryephile
04-22-2016, 11:43 AM
This should be interesting to see how it all plays out. Have you used the DSP-88R before?

My only concern here is the JL subs, as they're definitely not on the same level SQ-wise as the Scan-Speak Illuminators and Seas Prestige. Are you stuck with a shallow-mount sub or what's the story there?

StuttersC
04-22-2016, 12:01 PM
Good luck! I wish I knew more about how Clarion did the install in my car to help.

antarctica24
04-22-2016, 02:01 PM
This should be interesting to see how it all plays out. Have you used the DSP-88R before?

My only concern here is the JL subs, as they're definitely not on the same level SQ-wise as the Scan-Speak Illuminators and Seas Prestige. Are you stuck with a shallow-mount sub or what's the story there?

True that. I am with you 100% on the quality of the JL audio stuff. When I heard the dual 10" they sounded like typical Jl mess overly boomy. But when I heard the 12" I was pleasantly surprised. Granted I was in sound room not a car. So it could be really hard to tell what I was hearing. But they sounded better than the 10" which for me is typically not the case. I had decided that I had no interest in building some huge ass box, but as you so eloquently put, they not SQ subs. I do have a new set or unused would be a better word of the a/d/s 310rs.2 DVC 10". I consider these to be one of the best SQ subs I ever heard while judging. I had a set in the Fiero and this is the last set I have. Everything in Fiero was PX line except for the RS subs.

In the Vette system I did something completely unorthodox. I used two 10" but 1 was sealed while the other was ported. I was attempting to get that low end extension that you might pickup on say Krypton from Superman Soundtrack back in the day, while still having the tight lower kick drum. Funny enough it worked and was contemplating going that route again, but I hadn't decided as of yet. That car was all audison, because I was dealer and Audison was being giving, it had all Thesis stuff in it and believe it or not, in the door where the 10" factory speaker goes, I had 1 1/2" steel plate cut, and was running the 2 thesis 3" with the Thesis 6" and the audison tweeter in the factory tweeter location with a custom passive crossover. The 3" are really nice, but they just cant realistically play low enough in the midrange register. That's why I may try to cram a 4.5" as the 5.25 is the better speaker for midrange, but there is no way a 5.25 is going to fit on the dash like that. I would have to go into the dash.

Don't be shy what were you thinking about. I am game. There is the Dynaudio and Morel both are outstanding subwoofers. I would like to have some semblance of a trunk left. The a/d/s's need in my opinion a minimum of .75 sealed, and they will take 400 watts per VC without any issue so I am good there.

antarctica24
04-22-2016, 02:03 PM
Good luck! I wish I knew more about how Clarion did the install in my car to help.

In your Fiesta, What did they do? Don't you wish you could get a 9255 in there?

StuttersC
04-22-2016, 02:11 PM
In your Fiesta, What did they do? Don't you wish you could get a 9255 in there?

The install is a few years old now, and the installer no longer works at Clarion, so I couldn't get anything from them.

They put in an NX-603 double-din head unit, speakers, amps and subs. I don't have Sync...at all. They put the lower portion of the stock stereo (the controls) in the glove box so the car could still have a hazard button and a door lock/unlock button. They set it up as a show car.

I've pulled off the center dash section to see why the head unit wasn't getting any signal for the nav. It was a mess of wires and so, I found the antennae in there and moved to get a signal. Other than that, I can't say with out poking around in the dash more. I'm no stereo installer, so I'd rather not without someone there who is.

Ryephile
04-22-2016, 04:25 PM
True that. I am with you 100% on the quality of the JL audio stuff. When I heard the dual 10" they sounded like typical Jl mess overly boomy. But when I heard the 12" I was pleasantly surprised. Granted I was in sound room not a car. So it could be really hard to tell what I was hearing. But they sounded better than the 10" which for me is typically not the case. I had decided that I had no interest in building some huge ass box, but as you so eloquently put, they not SQ subs. I do have a new set or unused would be a better word of the a/d/s 310rs.2 DVC 10". I consider these to be one of the best SQ subs I ever heard while judging. I had a set in the Fiero and this is the last set I have. Everything in Fiero was PX line except for the RS subs.

In the Vette system I did something completely unorthodox. I used two 10" but 1 was sealed while the other was ported. I was attempting to get that low end extension that you might pickup on say Krypton from Superman Soundtrack back in the day, while still having the tight lower kick drum. Funny enough it worked and was contemplating going that route again, but I hadn't decided as of yet. That car was all audison, because I was dealer and Audison was being giving, it had all Thesis stuff in it and believe it or not, in the door where the 10" factory speaker goes, I had 1 1/2" steel plate cut, and was running the 2 thesis 3" with the Thesis 6" and the audison tweeter in the factory tweeter location with a custom passive crossover. The 3" are really nice, but they just cant realistically play low enough in the midrange register. That's why I may try to cram a 4.5" as the 5.25 is the better speaker for midrange, but there is no way a 5.25 is going to fit on the dash like that. I would have to go into the dash.

Don't be shy what were you thinking about. I am game. There is the Dynaudio and Morel both are outstanding subwoofers. I would like to have some semblance of a trunk left. The a/d/s's need in my opinion a minimum of .75 sealed, and they will take 400 watts per VC without any issue so I am good there.

You're in a fairly unique position to have much more listening experience than most. It's not common that installers take the time to actually calculate a proper sub enclosure tuning, regardless of the enclosure style. I'm going to hazard a guess that the JL TW12 you heard was in an overdamped enclosure size [too big] and that would slightly mask the high inductance motor having inherently high distortion.

As you know it's very tough to have a good SQ sub in a small enclosure, as you end up having to compromise the T/S parameters and try to make up for it with huge power and tons of EQ, but the Qtc will always be wrong so instruments will never sound natural. Since you mentioned you're willing to remove the spare tire, that frees up around 2 cu ft of volume under the false floor. This can get you a pair of good sounding 10's. A perhaps unnecessarily spendy option would be two Morel UW1058's, each in a 0.83 cu ft net sealed enclosure. A step down in price would be the Morel Ultimo SC124, and you can fit 2 of them as they need 1.1 cu ft each. I would recommend the Dayton RSS265HF but it needs too big an enclosure for Qtc=0.71, you might as well go to the 12", which is what I did in mine [albeit just one unit with 1.28 cu ft net]. The Dayton Ultimax 10 would be OK too but it's emphasis is on SPL and not as much SQ. I don't have any experience with the Audiofrog stuff but most of them need lots of volume, the one that would work would be a pair of G10D2's, the 12's no way. An unusual option would be the CSS SDX10, but I appears to be more SPL biased. A great SQ option would be the Scan Speak 26W/4558, and those need only 0.8 cu ft sealed. The Scan Speak would probably by my real world choice since it's not crazy money like the Morel UW1058.


As for the front soundstage, don't stress about getting the mid-ranges to play too low, remember that directionality drops significantly with frequency, so as long as your mids play down to a couple hundred Hz then it's no biggie. The important thing to worry about is to get the time alignment and radiation patterns correct. What about something like a Scan-Speak Discovery 5F/8422T-01? A little 2.6" full-range that will let you dial in the x-over Hz with the tweet and midbass pretty much wherever you want. Would be kind of awesome to have a full Scan-Speak driver line-up. It doesn't get much higher end than that, unless you starting throwing money at Accuton drivers. [shhh]

antarctica24
04-22-2016, 08:40 PM
You're in a fairly unique position to have much more listening experience than most. It's not common that installers take the time to actually calculate a proper sub enclosure tuning, regardless of the enclosure style. I'm going to hazard a guess that the JL TW12 you heard was in an overdamped enclosure size [too big] and that would slightly mask the high inductance motor having inherently high distortion.

As you know it's very tough to have a good SQ sub in a small enclosure, as you end up having to compromise the T/S parameters and try to make up for it with huge power and tons of EQ, but the Qtc will always be wrong so instruments will never sound natural. Since you mentioned you're willing to remove the spare tire, that frees up around 2 cu ft of volume under the false floor. This can get you a pair of good sounding 10's. A perhaps unnecessarily spendy option would be two Morel UW1058's, each in a 0.83 cu ft net sealed enclosure. A step down in price would be the Morel Ultimo SC124, and you can fit 2 of them as they need 1.1 cu ft each. I would recommend the Dayton RSS265HF but it needs too big an enclosure for Qtc=0.71, you might as well go to the 12", which is what I did in mine [albeit just one unit with 1.28 cu ft net]. The Dayton Ultimax 10 would be OK too but it's emphasis is on SPL and not as much SQ. I don't have any experience with the Audiofrog stuff but most of them need lots of volume, the one that would work would be a pair of G10D2's, the 12's no way. An unusual option would be the CSS SDX10, but I appears to be more SPL biased. A great SQ option would be the Scan Speak 26W/4558, and those need only 0.8 cu ft sealed. The Scan Speak would probably by my real world choice since it's not crazy money like the Morel UW1058.


As for the front soundstage, don't stress about getting the mid-ranges to play too low, remember that directionality drops significantly with frequency, so as long as your mids play down to a couple hundred Hz then it's no biggie. The important thing to worry about is to get the time alignment and radiation patterns correct. What about something like a Scan-Speak Discovery 5F/8422T-01? A little 2.6" full-range that will let you dial in the x-over Hz with the tweet and midbass pretty much wherever you want. Would be kind of awesome to have a full Scan-Speak driver line-up. It doesn't get much higher end than that, unless you starting throwing money at Accuton drivers. [shhh]

Ok, I looked at what you sent and here are my thoughts. It looks like the Morel SC124 is discontinued. The Morel UW1058, I am not sure how I missed that one, but that is one nice woofer and the .83 could work for sure and I had a thought that I will throw at you in a moment to get a second opinion. I know Andy and Gary personally over at Audio Frog. The funny story there is Andy and I actually worked on some stuff with my car and for one of my stores and Gary, I have judged his buick more times than I can count. They make some pretty stuff, but I have yet to hear anything as of yet. I did get to look at a midrange of theirs today up close and personal for the first time, and the cone material is different than anything else I have ever seen. It is a sandwich with polypropylene on top and paper on the bottom. I am trying to find the thiele parameters for the ads subs so I can share those with you, but now that I have seen the Morel that might be the perfect choice, I really liked what I read. I agree with you 100% on everything you said. The Scan speak 26W/4558 would be a really nice choice, but I question the power handling. I am certain you know that power ratings only really apply to distorted power, meaning if the power and signal is clean, they can always take more than their rated power. I would hope that I am not playing my subs at 500 watts each all the time, I would need new ears. [8]

Let me give you some thoughts on why I did what I did which may help the conversation. In my opinion, the 6.5" is a terrible midrange speaker. In reality it is too slow. Car Manufacturers use it because it is a nice medium for producing upfront bass and midrange in one driver. Home speaker builders use it because it is cheaper to build a 2 way than a 3 way crossover. While developing the other system it came to my attention that the 5.25 was a better midrange in a two way because typically you don't just install a two way, you install a two way with a sub. So the 5.25 want play as low as the 6.5, but it is much quicker and the midrange images are more defined and tight where as the 6.5 are less defined. For those who are just reading, lets say you are listing to, the Holly Cole trio, song I can see clearly now. There is a stand up bass on that track. The instrument with a 6.5 is very fat, where as with the 5.25 it is more lifelike in size. The 4" takes that to another level of definition in imaging because the driver is faster, lighter cone, lighter voice coil, faster motor better imaging. The dual 3" mounted adjacent gave me the equivalent of a 6" in moving air volume and the speed of a 3" and it was very detailed, but it was also hanging around the upper midrange region and in combination with the thesis tweeter it was too bright even with the tweeter being silk. This forced me to over tune to correct and as any audiophile knows the more you tune the worse it gets, less is always better regarding adjusting an EQ. The Thesis 3" will play clear down to 200 hz, but not enough to my liking. Obviously the 3" is a much better candidate for what I want to do for size, but if there was a 3.5" I would much more inclined to try. This would also cause me to have to design this dash enclosure so that if it didn't work as expected, I could just replace a panel and put the 4" in its place. The other thing to consider is I am going to be putting 100 watts on each midrange. This is real power, with 6 volts of signal. I would blow the 2" right out of the basket or at least melt the VC.

So here goes the other thought process on the subs. As I stated in the Corvette I experimented with doing two 10" but one was sealed and the other was ported. This time I thought about doing 1 10" sealed and 1 12" ported running both in mono. The 10" give me the tight end and the 12" give me the really low extension. I could go both the same size, but I think there is something to be said when dealing with subs and size vs capability. If you are a SQ guy (not you, just speaking), your go to sub is generally the 10". The right 10" in the right enclosure, is very hard to beat for SQ. Very hard. But if I spent the money and bought the Morel UW1058 and the Morel UW1258. There might be an opportunity.

One last thought on the source. I dropped by my favorite shop today and we were looking at the pocket in front of the stick shift. it looks like from a trimring that a DIN size head unit would fit right there in a custom install. If that would work I could skip the whole factory thing. Any thoughts?

StuttersC
04-22-2016, 10:04 PM
...One last thought on the source. I dropped by my favorite shop today and we were looking at the pocket in front of the stick shift. it looks like from a trimring that a DIN size head unit would fit right there in a custom install. If that would work I could skip the whole factory thing. Any thoughts?

I didn't think there was much room, as in deep, behind the center console pocket in front of the stick.

Ryephile
04-23-2016, 10:31 PM
Ok, I looked at what you sent and here are my thoughts. ...trimmed...

If I was spending my own money I'd go for the Morel UW1058 or the Scan-Speak 26W/4558. They're both fantastic drivers. The power ratings are standardized on the S-S but looking at all the T/S gives you a good picture. With over 1" of linear excursion it can play loud yet has super low inductance and high Bl to be low distortion too. That's a good segue into the next topic; driver size.

I understand where you're coming from on certain drivers sounding "too slow". In reality such a thing is simply a bad design and not just an indication of the driver diameter, though there are rational limits. It's why you see tweeters somewhere between 1/2" and 2", midranges somewhere between 2" and 8", and woofers usually between 6" and 18". In the end it's the motor design paired with the moving bits that creates the overall quality. For example, one of the best midrange drivers ever to grace this planet is the Vifa P13WH. It's a 13cm driver, roughly 5". Its motor design is strong enough to drive most 6 to 8" cones, yet it's a 5". It's not just the cone size, but the total package. One of the most natural loudspeakers I've ever heard was a real pair of Quad ESL 63, which are massive electrostatic panels. Their treble and bass weren't all that good, but holy crap the midrange was surreal and spine-tinglingly precise. Again, it's not just the size, but the system design.

So, my advice is not to focus on driver size, but finding good sounding drivers. That's why I mentioned the Scan-Speak 3"; it'll fit on the dash yet it'll sound fantastic. My only reservation there is I doubt it has UV protection built into the design, being a home/studio driver. If your car will stay garaged, then this is much less of a problem.


Ok, final topic: one sealed and one vented subwoofer enclosure. Theoretically, this is not a good idea as you're mixing two separate phase responses. If you're willing and able to implement a per-channel frequency-based time alignment setup then you can match their phase responses, but I'm not sure I've ever seen such a complicated piece of hardware. I'm a big proponent of sealed enclosures in car environments due to the excellent room gain you get in a car that helps achieve flat and smooth frequency response without massive phase slewing that ported enclosures inherently have near their resonant frequency. I'm super critical of clean bass response in terms of time alignment across the frequency response, so I'll admit that my take on this is much more particular than most audiophiles. Asymmetrical vehicular modes and nodes that would inevitably occur due to different enclosure designs would also drive me up a wall. So my advice is to either do 2 sealed or 2 ported, and if it's the latter, my first pass would be to do a tidy QB3 quasi-Butterworth tuning, and avoid Chebyshev tuning at all costs because [IMO] it trashes the sound quality and drastically reduces power handling below the tuning frequency.

I hope that helps!
Oh, just FWIW, I went to University of Miami for Acoustics based Audio Engineering (which is essentially Mechanical Engineering with emphasis in loudspeaker design) and have many studio and hi-fi loudspeaker designs under my belt. I've done everything from prove out my designs in anechoic chambers to have recording studios use my monitors to win db-drag trophies. Most of that was years ago now that I'm in the automotive OEM world but the passion never goes away.

Hellboy's_Fist
04-24-2016, 01:43 AM
I'm going with a oem+ upgrade. Pioneer components up front with A-pillar pods facing each other phase switched from the mids. I will not run a rear stage and have 2 tang band 6.5" subwoofers (yes subs, with 11mm xmax btw) in a ported enclosure under the rear cargo tray. It should be a marked upgrade from factory when you figure in the sound deadening and the bass restoration from the audio control but, with out getting to crazy and adding a ton of weight. As it is now I can't stand to listen to anything past half volume and it's killing me. Hopefully a nice comp set with 3x the factory power will at least fix that. I'm not going for sq awards (nor am I knocking them). I'd love to hear what one of these cars sound like fully done.

antarctica24
04-24-2016, 05:00 AM
If I was spending my own money I'd go for the Morel UW1058 or the Scan-Speak 26W/4558. They're both fantastic drivers. The power ratings are standardized on the S-S but looking at all the T/S gives you a good picture. With over 1" of linear excursion it can play loud yet has super low inductance and high Bl to be low distortion too. That's a good segue into the next topic; driver size.

I understand where you're coming from on certain drivers sounding "too slow". In reality such a thing is simply a bad design and not just an indication of the driver diameter, though there are rational limits. It's why you see tweeters somewhere between 1/2" and 2", midranges somewhere between 2" and 8", and woofers usually between 6" and 18". In the end it's the motor design paired with the moving bits that creates the overall quality. For example, one of the best midrange drivers ever to grace this planet is the Vifa P13WH. It's a 13cm driver, roughly 5". Its motor design is strong enough to drive most 6 to 8" cones, yet it's a 5". It's not just the cone size, but the total package. One of the most natural loudspeakers I've ever heard was a real pair of Quad ESL 63, which are massive electrostatic panels. Their treble and bass weren't all that good, but holy crap the midrange was surreal and spine-tinglingly precise. Again, it's not just the size, but the system design.

So, my advice is not to focus on driver size, but finding good sounding drivers. That's why I mentioned the Scan-Speak 3"; it'll fit on the dash yet it'll sound fantastic. My only reservation there is I doubt it has UV protection built into the design, being a home/studio driver. If your car will stay garaged, then this is much less of a problem.


Ok, final topic: one sealed and one vented subwoofer enclosure. Theoretically, this is not a good idea as you're mixing two separate phase responses. If you're willing and able to implement a per-channel frequency-based time alignment setup then you can match their phase responses, but I'm not sure I've ever seen such a complicated piece of hardware. I'm a big proponent of sealed enclosures in car environments due to the excellent room gain you get in a car that helps achieve flat and smooth frequency response without massive phase slewing that ported enclosures inherently have near their resonant frequency. I'm super critical of clean bass response in terms of time alignment across the frequency response, so I'll admit that my take on this is much more particular than most audiophiles. Asymmetrical vehicular modes and nodes that would inevitably occur due to different enclosure designs would also drive me up a wall. So my advice is to either do 2 sealed or 2 ported, and if it's the latter, my first pass would be to do a tidy QB3 quasi-Butterworth tuning, and avoid Chebyshev tuning at all costs because [IMO] it trashes the sound quality and drastically reduces power handling below the tuning frequency.

I hope that helps!
Oh, just FWIW, I went to University of Miami for Acoustics based Audio Engineering (which is essentially Mechanical Engineering with emphasis in loudspeaker design) and have many studio and hi-fi loudspeaker designs under my belt. I've done everything from prove out my designs in anechoic chambers to have recording studios use my monitors to win db-drag trophies. Most of that was years ago now that I'm in the automotive OEM world but the passion never goes away.

Sir, no credentials required. When two audiophiles are speaking together you know if the other knows what their talking about. The think In the vette was my installers idea. Although the subs in the 4th order band pass in the Fiero were mine I completely didn't expect them to sound like they did and neither did the manufacturer. It was a freak of nature. They so didn't believe me that they flew a guy from Mass to NC just to check it out. He saw the layout and said this will never work and wanted to change a bunch of stuff and once he listened to it he said I wouldn't change a thing. I agree with you 100% on the sealed enclosure in the car. It is much easier to control and the subwoofers behave much more as expected. With the resonant frequency bump you get with the ported design in conjunction with the car acoustics you always end up having to try and correct the curve on the lower end and as I have said less it better when it comes to th tuning so thank you for reminding me what it was a bad idea. Sometime I like to think outside the box and while that's ok sometimes this is not one of those times.

The scan speak 3 would be perfect from an install perspective but even at 8ohm I'm still pushing 50 watts and the max on that midrange is 35 and I just tent to play it too loud. The audison 3" will take 100 watts but it is no where in the same class as the scan speak. I think in case to make it work I'm going to have to make a compromise of form over function to some degree. I need more voice cool to absorb more power. I would give my left nut to be able to get two 5" on the dash. That would so much closer to what I had before. I just hope I can reproduce the freak of nature. I have never heard that model Vifa but listening to you I believe you.
I decided last night on the morel subs and based on this conversation it will be the two 10" in a sealed enclosure.

I'm going to pm you about another project I am working on and send you some stuff.

antarctica24
04-24-2016, 05:09 AM
I'm going with a oem+ upgrade. Pioneer components up front with A-pillar pods facing each other phase switched from the mids. I will not run a rear stage and have 2 tang band 6.5" subwoofers (yes subs, with 11mm xmax btw) in a ported enclosure under the rear cargo tray. It should be a marked upgrade from factory when you figure in the sound deadening and the bass restoration from the audio control but, with out getting to crazy and adding a ton of weight. As it is now I can't stand to listen to anything past half volume and it's killing me. Hopefully a nice comp set with 3x the factory power will at least fix that. I'm not going for sq awards (nor am I knocking them). I'd love to hear what one of these cars sound like fully done.

I think the dual 6.5" sub is a awesome idea. Like you said you'll be able to kill two birds with one stone low weight and certainly more low end response than what the car came with. I'm not sure sure I would question the quality of what your building. Two 6.5" woofers in the right enclosure and right dampening with such a small cabin should sound awesome and very tight and punchy. From a weigh perspective that might be one of the best setup I've heard yet. That is the same setup that is used in the porche 911. It is a dual 6.5" behind each seat. I had a pair of those that a/d/s made for the 911. I used them in a custom door enclosure in my pontiac Grand Prix for midbass. Very nice indeed. I would love to hear it when you get it done. Don't mind us were just geeking out a little bit. When you e been doing the audio thing as long as we have and he went school for it you develop a certain taste in your ear for it. For me one of the most complicated systems to setup in a car is a 4-way. I've done it 5 times in 5 different cars. Normally it's a tweeter, mid, midbass and sub but the last time it was two midrange and no midbass. It creates a lot of phasing abnormalities making it very difficult to tune and get right but when you do the sound is hard to beat. That's why you see a lot of competitors do the two way up from. It's a cleaner install and so much easier to get the staging, imaging and depth with minimum tuning.

As you have noticed that as long as your arms are not in the way your tweeter is mounted behind you but still manages to project the image upfront. That is a result of terrible install location and over tuning and processing. By doing what you doing which by the way is the better solution because just like the car there is no replacement for disllacment, with audio their is no substitute for best speaker placement. The less time alignment or what it really is phase correction and the less eq-Ing you have to do the better and more natural your system will sound and with doing the oem upgrade you will need all of the advantage you can get. I decided the other night I am willing to gut this car to prevent me from having to use that sync mess. It serves no purpose for me to buy the best speakers and then be subject to the terrible source. The JL piece is the best option available to make that work as of today.

Some audiophiles might question the alpine amp. It is in fact a full range class d amp as the ultimate audio amplifier and they would be correct. Class a or a/b is the better choice but you have to look at what we're dealing with. I want big power. I want clean power. I don't have a onboard charging station I have a Ford Fiesta dinky alternator and I'm not about to install 2 batteries and I don't really have the room for class a/b amps with the power requirements I have put on myself.

The tang band stuff has a really nice sound to it. I judged several cars that used it and walked away really liking the musicality of the drivers. There were 3". They don't take a lot of power and for some that is ok. I tend to play my stuff really loud and because I push the voltage limits on the signal I have to be very selective about what I'm hooking power too or I will break the speaker.

What I should do is just out an inducer on the windsheild and make it the speaker. Yes I've heard that before and yes it does work. But nnot this time.

Hellboy's_Fist
04-24-2016, 10:13 PM
The reason I went with the Tang Bands is because they are small and yet still hit low and have pretty good excursion. They actually go cleanly below 30hz which shocked me. It's the only way I could think to run a ported enclosure and not give up any hatch space. I'm designing the enclosure so the port fires up through the handle grip hole on the cargo tray. The amp I'm running is a JBL 3 channel. It uses a class a/b for the front channel and a class D for the subs. The sub channel is way to much for my speakers in a ported setup so I am actually going to run them in series at 8ohms. I've had great luck with Alpine amps the past, they always seemed to have a somewhat less power than other brands (probably because they don't overrate) but, more importantly the power they did have was much cleaner. I've always loved Alpine headunits, in past cars they are all I've used.

I'm also thinking about doing a battery relocation kit while I'm doing my install. Either way I'm running a wire and since I'm going more for performance it would be nice to get that weight out back and even things up a bit.

Transducers are fun, I put some behind the doors of my kitchen cabinets. It's fun to watch the look on the faces of your guests when music comes from seemingly nowhere.

Ryephile
04-26-2016, 09:09 AM
Sir, no credentials required. When two audiophiles are speaking together you know if the other knows what their talking about. The think In the vette was my installers idea. Although the subs in the 4th order band pass in the Fiero were mine I completely didn't expect them to sound like they did and neither did the manufacturer. It was a freak of nature. They so didn't believe me that they flew a guy from Mass to NC just to check it out. He saw the layout and said this will never work and wanted to change a bunch of stuff and once he listened to it he said I wouldn't change a thing. I agree with you 100% on the sealed enclosure in the car. It is much easier to control and the subwoofers behave much more as expected. With the resonant frequency bump you get with the ported design in conjunction with the car acoustics you always end up having to try and correct the curve on the lower end and as I have said less it better when it comes to th tuning so thank you for reminding me what it was a bad idea. Sometime I like to think outside the box and while that's ok sometimes this is not one of those times.

The scan speak 3 would be perfect from an install perspective but even at 8ohm I'm still pushing 50 watts and the max on that midrange is 35 and I just tent to play it too loud. The audison 3" will take 100 watts but it is no where in the same class as the scan speak. I think in case to make it work I'm going to have to make a compromise of form over function to some degree. I need more voice cool to absorb more power. I would give my left nut to be able to get two 5" on the dash. That would so much closer to what I had before. I just hope I can reproduce the freak of nature. I have never heard that model Vifa but listening to you I believe you.
I decided last night on the morel subs and based on this conversation it will be the two 10" in a sealed enclosure.

I'm going to pm you about another project I am working on and send you some stuff.

Please do, I look forward to seeing what you have cooking. I'm also pleased to hear that going with straightforward sealed enclosures is the cleanest idea.

I was mistaken on the little Scan-Speak 2"; it's sensitivity is only 80dB, so with the minimal power handling it simply won't play that loud. I think it's more intended for computer or bluetooth portable solutions. A possible midrange idea is the Audio Frog 2.5" (http://www.audiofrog.com/gb25-2-12-63-mm-audiophile-grade-automotive-loudspeaker/), and since you know those guys it wouldn't hurt to get hold of them and give them a listen. It's no-joke on the MSRP though, yikes.

Another idea would be to do a pair per side of the Tymphany NE65W (http://www.parts-express.com/tymphany-ne65w-04-2-full-range-woofer--264-1046). They don't have the same power handling, but if you crossed them over at around 200Hz or higher then their power handling would rise significantly. They're basically a free-air design, the enclosure would need to be basically the same size as the Vas. They're small enough that a pair flanking the tweeter is plausible without blocking all sorts of forward view.