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Platform for driver development

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Arlington
#1
I am considering a ST as a platform to develop my driving skills. I've always had an interest in performance driving and only now have the extra coin for a third car. I don't have an immediate interest in max top speed, but rather learning to drive well and at the limit. My current go fast fix comes from a Street Triple that has tons of useable torque. Having taken a ST for a test drive, I really liked the feels fast sensation at moderate speeds.

In my early 40's now, so I don't expect anything more than a good time at weekend events. What should I expect from autocrossing, rally crossing, or tracking a ST? What are operating cost for consumables and how has the engine held up during spirited driving? Would you suggest another vehicle? Would time with a ST prep me for a higher power vehicle? Thanks for any input.
 


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Nurburgring
#2
If it's going to be your third, 'fun' car, my money would be on a small rear-wheel drive car like the new Mazda Miata. That's coming from someone who currently owns a Scion FR-S, a Honda S2000 and a Fiesta ST. I track them all occasionally and the S2000 is the most rewarding due to its excellent suspension design, high revving engine and open top experience.

I'd recommend you go test drive the Mazda Miata and the Scion FR-S / Subaru BRZ, they're in the same price range as the ST and are designed as sports cars from the ground up. The ST is great if you can only have one car to do everything.

If you're a beginner, for all the cars mentioned above (~200 horsepower), the OEM tires and brake pads may last you 5-7 track days. Certainly hundreds of autox runs. You'll go through consumables quicker as your skill improves.

Edit: the new Fiat 124 Spyder would be another good option. It shares chassis with the Mazda Miata but has a punchier turbo engine. It will not be on sale until spring/summer next year however.
 


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Ridgecrest
#3
i agree with juliog. If it's a fun car for track weekends and what not, go RWD and the platforms he mentions.
 


RAAMaudio

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#4
I love my FiST but also needed something to fit two big dogs in, short and light enough to fit into a toyhauler trailer, etc...and something I did not need to mod much though I went a bit overboard in that department.

I am in love with the new Miata and have already looked at all the mods, I would likely keep it NA as they are getting around 180WHP with bolt on mods and a tune. A base model with that power and the mods below would be a very quick car to learn to go quite fast with and turbo kits are going to add around 80 more WHP which is far more than enough of you wanted more juice later. I did look at all the other models and options, the mid level car is tempting but only a bit of body work and the LSD is what I would want on it, I could setup a base car for less money and possibly a better LSD though I have not learned much about the stock unit yet.

Approx $33-34k to build

Ohlins coilovers
Sways
Wilwood BBK
17x9 wheels
235/40/17 tires
Splitter, small rear lip spoiler
Side skirts
Intake
Exhaust including headers
Tune
SCCA roll bar
Harnesses
Misc other parts

OR, buy a clean NA or ND already setup very well for half or likely less since they are pretty bullet proof unless add a bit to much power then the trans can be an issue. You can get 13.4 lb and some a bit lighter wheels, roll formed, 15x9, fit over the 11" WW BBK, for the $125 range!
 


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Las Vegas
#5
I disagree with you guys, I feel like the learning curve for a fwd car is better than the learning curve on a rwd car.
I'm not saying fwd is better nor faster, but fwd will help teach many technics that rwd will take longer to grasp. So that being said if you buy the fiesta you'll have a good handling car that will teach you Many things and allow you to focus on driving smooth, trail braking, driving line...ect.

My first car I tracked was a rwd and it wasn't as awesome as a Miata or s2k but it was a mid-engine rwd. I love rwd and they are a lot of fun on a track, and honestly I miss it, but my driving has improved exponetially ever since the fist. After a year of not driving my rwd car and just racing the fist, I dropped 3 seconds on my PB with the rwd car set up exactly the same, including have the same exact tires.

This is how Many of my friends and I feel about it.
(honestly it doesn't matter a hole lot what you drive just get seat time )
 


OP
T
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Thread Starter #6
RAAM,

thanks for the input here. Glad you're enjoying your FiST. Seems like a pretty great time for enthusiast with the range of affordable fun cars to drive. What base car do you assume in your build above?
 


OP
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Thread Starter #7
John,

Thanks for the input. I recall having read an article before that recommended a progression of fwd, rwd, then awd, in NA cars with non-NA cars last. The logic was built around how accessible the learning curve would be. I might have rwd and awd switched. I guess by your logic, even a base Fiesta works for skill set development. I'd imagine a used Fiesta would allow extra money to be spent on seat time and maybe some instruction. The idea of a car that is fun on the daily is makes the ST so interesting.
 


RAAMaudio

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#8
Base model, referring to the new Miata, the next levels up contain parts I would not want, need, have to swap out, etc.....easier to save the time, trouble and cost of upgrading parts not needed though some would sell for good money. I would research the value and market demand for such parts before making a final decision, might be better to order the car with a higher level package and sell the parts not needed as base model parts would have little demand.

-----------------

Having modded cars for handling up to full on race cars, FWD and RWD, AWD street and track, not full race....

I find FWD more challenging and love to dispel the myth that FWD is slow, making it work well and staying within the power limits of what that platform can use since the front wheels do 90% or so of the work. I have had great fun running with "superior" cars on track often beating many of them and when a full race car against my street car even more so, I have set my sites quite high for the FiST:)

I like the overall dynamics of RWD the best, great fun getting the rear end out, more so in the dirt, rain, snow where you can get sideways at safer speeds more easily.

A a mid engine RWD has to be setup very carefully and driven properly to fully use it's true potential, if not they can bite one in the arse quite easily. Since a FWD is more forgiving it makes sense one could learn more then transfer it to a mid engine RWD car.

AWD, I have only built one, I find it to easy to make it fast and less challenging to drive so got bored with it pretty quickly.

To me driving is not about ultimate lap times, it is about quick ones in the type of car you are in, preferably one you setup yourself, and having as much fun doing it as possible and adding the challenge of FWD makes it more rewarding to me.

Why I recommend a Miata has many facets but the one I miss the most is going on mellow drives with the top down and just having a great time in the sunshine and sometimes even the cold and light rain and NA so I can test and hone my skills where lots of power can mask that experience. If not for needing to haul two big dogs around with a multipurpose car, we are full time RVing, I would of already taken delivery of a 2016 Miata:)

I do agree, start out NA or at least not too much FI power, to much power is addictive and can keep one from learning how to drive well, work your way up and stop where you are comfortable with it instead of searching for more and more power.

I have to admit it is seriously tempting and great fun in many ways but I have refrained quite well all my life, the FiST may be the highest power to weight ratio car I have built yet but I have beaten hundreds of cars with more power in the other projects I have done.

--------------------------------------

All that said, if I wanted a little hatch with more room and a great chassis to work from or enjoy it mostly stock, the FiST is the only car I recommend, I do love mine and plan to keep it but would love to have the new Miata as well.

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The one single thing I dislike about the FiST is the stock turbo power delivery, a huge rush of torque then a dead top end is not much fun to me, why I had the first Cyborg turbo. Sometimes I wish I stayed there instead of the EFR which turned out having more lag than expected and now going to the smaller GTX but may end up going down to an even smaller GT but want enough power to run with some pretty serious cars on track so willing to see how the GTX2860R works out.
 


meFiSTo

Senior Member
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Location
Redmond
#9
I've only ever tracked FWD cars (my SVT Focus and now this car). And really not that much with this car yet. I like the idea of a used Miata built (like with a cage and lots of suspension work) for track duty in theory, but I would not have probably done that (and didn't). I think the FWD cars are more forgiving at the limit for people learning to test limits. I love this little hatch for a number of reasons that are not specifically performance related. I can get 4 track wheels comfortably in the back seat and still load up all my gear in the rear (including my jack, a kind of compact EZ-Up, tools, travel bag, etc.). Very handy. At home, the car is a great alternative vehicle.

A comment about the S2000s: The first generation S2000s were a little prone to snap oversteer. I saw one snap right into a wall at Portland on a perfectly dry track -- guy lifted while turning slightly and running over what were referred to as the "Porsche bumps" entering the back straight. BIG mistake in a RWD car there.

I view the Fiesta as a relatively safe, fun momentum car for track days. A few mods and thing is pretty quick -- especially in the curves and on corner exit, but not in terms of top end. So: Not especially fast. I say "relatively" safe because is it a tall car. Put sticky rubber on that car without making suspension adjustments and it might be prone to tipping with sudden turning inputs. That could be tricky for someone just learning a car's behavior a the limit -- might be more of an issue in an autocross setting.

YMNV.
 


RAAMaudio

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#10
meFISTO, Very good response with valid points:):)

Lower the car, widen the track with wider wheels with offset that does not stick out to much, 16x8 is great, 15x8 even better, lower your seat but stay close to the steering wheel, move the passenger seat down, back and lower the back as far as possible, fold rear seat or remove, all adds up to improve handling and helps prevent a roll over.

Track it in very warm or hot weather you will end up with cooling mods being required and perhaps some work on the brakes but you do not have to spend a fortune on it.

Fitting your track gear into the back is a big bonus if not toying a little trailer or the car on a car trailer or back up vehicle brought to the track...
(I could fit 18x10.5 wheels with 285 slicks, jack, jack stands and tools in the back of the Forester XT I built that was very fast on the track and much fun to shock some exotic car snobs with:)

The FiST is also a great car if you get into modding and though mine is heavily modded it rides better than stock, goes like stink, stops on half a dime, corner grip is incredible, gets 38+ MPG on the highway.....fits into our toyhauler trailer, our Irish Wolfhound and our Akita fit comfortably in the back along with groceries, etc and on track with 220WHP at the time I passed a ton of cars including a full race Porsche Boxter, two race early RX7's, blew by the FRS's, 5 seconds a lap faster than the national champ spec Miata, this may be my all time favorite all around car out of dozens I have modded. I would not give it up to have the 2016 Miata, just want both.

Find a good deal on a used one and use the savings for the most important mods and perhaps some track time:)
 


OP
T
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Arlington
Thread Starter #11
RAAM,

Great feedback from you and all above. I'll keep researching and hope to join the "club" in Jan/Feb next year. A used Fist could work, but I'd just be hesitant that a prior owner abused the engine. Of course I have no idea how much of a beating these engines and drive trains can take.

If I found a base FiST(new or used), is a seat upgrade worth it over the Recaro's? What would be a comparable aftermarket driver's seat? Anything I should avoid? Thanks again. You folks are awesome!
 


RAAMaudio

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#12
You are most welcome:)

I would go for the Recaro package as it is a great value compared to aftermarket seats which I did say in plural as some organizations require both driver and passenger sides to have the same level of safety gear and seats are part of that usually, if you want to have a passenger that is which may include an instructor as most require when you start tracking a car.

I just posted yesterday or the day before that in my quest to save weight I looked into fixed back good aftermarket seats but when I added in weight of the seats, side and floor mounts it was only going to save 12 lbs and in the end less comfortable, much more hassle get in and out of when running errands, etc...I decided to spend the money and time on the front of the car instead but I had already done most of what could be done up there except I had a heavy intercooler so went to a much lighter weight solution.

Reclining seats are not race seats so going that route which I have done with Recaro SRD and Speed numerous times which have really good support and look great as well as very comfy will cost as much or more of what the Recaro package does. They are harder to keep clean as everything sticks to them, no side air bags(not a fan of airbags in general but when they do work they are a damn good thing to have)

I purposely bought the factory Recaro seats and glad I did, if I had a car without them I would find a set or go aftermarket because proper seat support goes a long way towards better car control via feedback and using your focus on driving instead of sliding around helping you learn to be faster and safer.
 




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