Handling is most important to me and I need help

[IrishST]

Hi all. This all started with some questions I had in the tire/wheel section and has lead to me reading various suspension related forums all freaking day and now I'm completely second guessing my original mod plans and if any of you suspension gurus could lend me some advice, I'd really, really appreciate it.

I'm not a straight line speed dude and haven't been for years. For me, it's all about handling and getting the most out of a curvy road. Now, I don't do serious, or any really, autox and I'm not a track rat. What I do enjoy is quiet, tight backroads and having fun in a controlled manner. I do NOT go nuts on the street, I'm 34 years old with a wife and two kids and I've grown long out of my reckless days, but I do enjoy having fun and even if it's overkill for the street, I want the car to handle so I'm focusing all my mod attention on handling for the immediate future.

Since this is a DD and a weekend carver, my original plans for my first mods were as follows:

Cobb lowering springs
Cobb front and rear sway bars
Cobb stage 1 bundle (drop in, RMM, AP w/ OTS tune) to smooth out the power band more than anything else

After doing a lot of reading, other than the stage 1 package, I'm not sure I want to do any of that anymore. I've read that the Cobb (rebranded Eibach apparently) front sway bar is really aggressive and a lot of people consider it TOO aggressive. I've also read that the rear Cobb sway bar is very aggressive and makes the car extremely tail happy and while that might be fun on the track, it isn't necessarily a good idea for controlled canyon carving on public roads. I used to be a mechanic and I have no fear of wrenching, however the fronts are a pretty involved install, especially without a lift, and I don't want to go to all that trouble if it's a waste of time. The rear are stupid easy on/off, but still, wasted time is worse than wasted money because we can make more money but we can't get time back.

This brought me to reading about the PB and Pierce braces and I'm now considering ditching the Cobb sways entirely and just going with the rear torsion bar and the 2-piece up front from Pierce (probably their "street kit" that also includes the tower brace). This leads me to the questions, knowing that I want sharp, tight handling but don't track or compete (at least for now, it could happen):

- Do you think the front 2-piece brace and rear torsion bar from Pierce are enough?
- Should I do both of those PLUS both sway bars?
- If not that, both of those PLUS only the rear sway bar?
- The Cobb springs... Worth doing or just ignore them entirely and stay stock until the day comes that I go with full coilovers? I don't want to harm the handling at all, only make it better and the car isn't exactly jacked up stock so lowering it isn't super crucial.

I got this car like 1.5 weeks ago and it's cold so I've barely driven it because I don't have winter tires for it, or even all-seasons, not to mention it spent like 3 days in the shop not getting it's climate control fixed (yes, you read that right ). No matter what, I am absolutely going to get to know it before I immediately start changing things and that may help make it more clear on what I really want to do, but I'm a planner with my cars and I really want to start putting a plan together so I can start ordering in 3 months or so and have it in good shape by the summer. Considering my common use I could probably keep it bone stock and still have a blast, but I love to wrench and I love to tinker so yeah, there it is. Once the car is paid off, if I still love it at that time, I intend to basically mod everything - big turbo, stage 3 bolt ons, etc, etc, but for now I'm really just focused on suspension/chassis/handling.

Than you so much for anyone that took the time to read this, I'd buy you a beer if I could, and I really appreciate any tips or advice.

 

[WhiteFords]

I DD my FiST with just a handful of mods and it has proven to be a fun car that is very capable in open track sessions.
My first mod was the Pierce 6 point brace. Why the 6 pointer? Why leave chassis stiffness on the table? The install wasn't bad and the fitment was great!

Then of course, ya gotta get an AP3. Randy at Mountune did a tune for me that made it so much more responsive.

Before my track day, I switched to ATE brake fluid and Stoptech lines. No brake issues in 20 minute duration sessions, as driven by a NASA Pro License holder.

These are great cars that don't need much to really be a lot of fun.

 

[Waterfan]

Your goals sound similar to mine. Honestly, for my abilities, the stock suspension is shockingly good as is. Therefore I am going to be very careful changing anything, and slowly evaluate each change before considering anything additional.

I have no firm plans except for lighter wheels and better tires (16x7 pending install). Most probable next step is chassis bracing, maybe 6-point, maybe torsion bar, maybe trunk brace, maybe all 3 (totally undecided at this point). I have strong suspicion, wheels/tires may be all I "need".

I don't ever see myself playing with sway bars. I would look at improving roll stiffness with mild lowering springs or coil overs first.

Good luck in your own plan meeting your own goals.

 

[Brick]

I don't do serious, or any really, autox and I'm not a track rat. What I do enjoy is quiet, tight backroads and having fun in a controlled manner. I do NOT go nuts on the street, I'm 34 years old with a wife and two kids Since this is a DD and a weekend carver

Hey, loved the post. Here's my recommendation. Seeing how you do not autocross or go to the track, and that you are a family man ( I am as well), I think just some light modding will do the trick. Honestly, in stock form, this car doesn't need any help, but I understand the desire to modify so this would make a good daily driver in my eyes. This is pretty much what I'm planning on doing as well.

1. Lighter weight wheels and stickier tires.

That's it. That's not enough? Still want to lower the car?

2. Coil Overs
3. Front brace and torsion bar

That should be plenty for daily driving and just tooling around for fun driving days.

I did the front brace and torsion bar, and for roughly 160 bucks (bought my stuff used) I liked the improvements.

 

[Wcyracer]

I dd my car on Eibach swaybars and it's wonderful. The car feels tied together and more neutral if anything. A more solid feeling combined with added anti roll is the business in this car. Please don't be afraid of swaybars as they are a key easy MOD that will yield amazing benefits.

 

[IrishST]

Thanks for the updates, I appreciate it. When it comes to the sway bars, I'm not really afraid of them, I've done far, far more involved work in my time, but that work was done with access to a lift that I don't have anymore since I gave up the mechanic game a long time ago in search of higher, and more steady, income. I know I could do it with jack stands and a floor jack or two, but detaching the sub, steering rack, etc, is definitely a decently involved process to do on your back.

Regarding wheels and tires, I kind of want to stay on 17s and after doing some research I've found that if I can stick with 215/40/17, even though there are differences in ultimate tire size between brands and this will be a bit taller than stock, I should be able to still do the springs and not have any rubbing problems. I just don't want to put too much tire on the car for its power and end up losing handling as a result by screwing the balance. Anyway, since the stock size is pretty slim pickings and 215/40/17 isn't much better, I'm thinking I might go with Star Specs.

SS = 7.5" rim width, 8.6" section width, 8" tread, 23.8" diameter
Stock = 7.5" rim width, 8.4" section width, 7.6" tread width, 23.4" diameter

Looks like I'll gain about .4" of tread while not increasing the overall diameter or overall width too much. That said, considering my uses, these tires but actually be a bit much so the search may continue, but that's my initial thoughts.

So yeah, now that I've had some more time to digest what I've been reading and really, really think about it, I think my plan is as follows:

1. Actually drive the car. We have some awesome roads not far from here, including one that due to its rural nature and low traffic maintains a 55mph speed limit throughout its entire 8 miles or so, but has lots of turns with recommended speeds of down to 15 with the average being 25-35. This road is my "proving ground" so to speak. Hardly anyone on it, only one small section that is in a populated area, and it has a high enough speed limit that you can enjoy yourself without getting full on reckless. Problem is, it's too cold to go and I haven't had the car out there yet to make informed decisions on what I should do.

2. Get the Cobb AP w/ Stage 1 OTS tune (their stage 1 bundle actually). I'm not doing this for any sort of expected insane performance gains, but more to make the power more useable and spread out the curve a bit more. The added torque will be nice too, don't get me wrong .

3. After some time actually turning the car, probably first go with 17x7.5" rims and a 215/40/17 tire like the Star Specs, or maybe something a little less aggressive.

4. If the tires/wheels aren't enough, do the springs.

5. If the springs aren't enough, do the braces.

6. If the braces aren't enough, do the sways.

Thanks again for replying folks, I appreciate you taking the time.

 

[Waterfan]

So yeah, now that I've had some more time to digest what I've been reading and really, really think about it, I think my plan is as follows:...

I cannot improve upon your plan. Especially the part about driving and learning the car first. I have less than 3k miles DD (incl. some canyon) experience with my 2014 CPO and am still unable to find any major deficiencies with the chassis.

It must be the cruelest joke to buy a new FiST but not be able to enjoy it fully due to weather. (Not a problem we have out here in Cali )

 

[IrishST]

I cannot improve upon your plan. Especially the part about driving and learning the car first. I have less than 3k miles DD (incl. some canyon) experience with my 2014 CPO and am still unable to find any major deficiencies with the chassis.

It must be the cruelest joke to buy a new FiST but not be able to enjoy it fully due to weather. (Not a problem we have out here in Cali )

Tell me about it. It's especially tough because we've had a few days that are just on the cusp of warm enough. I know the manual supplement for the tires says they aren't recommended below 40, but still, from 40-50 I don't want to push them at all really and I'm only 3/4 comfortable on them from 50-55. The worst part is we had a beautiful day in the mid 70s and I couldn't take advantage because the car was in the shop for this stupid 2016 model year climate control issue that Ford has no fix for yet so it literally went to the shop, sat parked behind the shop for 3 days, had nothing replaced or fixed while the techs talked to Ford engineering, and then I got to take it home right as the temperature returned to the normal highs in the low 40s and lows in the low to mid 30s .

 

[Siestarider]

My first handling mod was mounting 16x7 OZ Ultras and BFG S-Comp 205/45/16.

Slightly more sidewall softened the ride to perfect for me The big weight loss per wheel improved overall handling pretty dramatically. Two years on this setup and I have no urge to "improve" handling further.

I have frittered away money hunting hp, but with Cobb AP and VDyno, at least you will know when noise>hp.

Just mounted a Pierce 2 pt lower brace, mostly to make undertray experiments easy.

I love tracking because its the safest place to drive at the limits of the car, and so far, its still me that is the limiting factor in handling, not the car.

 

[RAAMaudio]

Sorry I missed this thread but we have had some PMs so I will take a look at those and this thread in the AM unless I have to leave earlier than planned and see if I can help

 

[IrishST]

Sorry I missed this thread but we have had some PMs so I will take a look at those and this thread in the AM unless I have to leave earlier than planned and see if I can help

Appreciate it. After all the discussion on tires and wheels, which I honestly wasn't even sure I was going to mess with at first, I went that route as my first mods to hopefully improve handling, which I'm pretty sure you were aware of . I also changed away from my original "must be 17!" mindset and went with your rec's on 15", though I didn't have the patience to wait for the 15x8 to be available since it was so up in the air and went 15x7. In all the tire/wheel reading I've done I've picked up a few things on suspension as well and now I'm pretty set on doing this:

1. Tires/wheels obviously, the wheel should be here this week I hope and I'll have the tires soon as well so I'll get them all mounted up, but I won't be putting them on the car for at least 2-3 months because we're having a pretty heinous late winter after a super mild start.

2. Springs. Either Cobb, Eibach prokit, or Mountune. The Mountune concern me because they have a larger advertised drop and I don't want to deal with rubbing or fender modifications. Shaving a bolt here and there is fine, but I don't want to go much more than that. The tires I'm going with are 23.4" in diameter, same as stock, and should end up about .3-.4" wider than stock when mounted on my 7" rims. My rims also have a mild 42mm offset so they are only very slightly farther out in the well than stock. All in all, very close to stock dimensions and from what I've read, all those springs are fine for stock dimensions even under heavy cornering compression.

I'm going the spring route first because I've learned more and everything I've learned says to deal with body roll and "softness" via springs first. Once you're happy with the springs, then you start messing with the sway bars and whatnot.

3. If I still want more out of it, which I honestly probably won't since I don't do serious autox or track days, I'll consider the Pierce braces.

4. If I do the braces and decide it's STILL not enough, I'll consider messing with the sway bars. Everything I've read says sway bars should always be the last suspension mod made after all other items are taken care of so I'm not rushing here. I might even reach a point that I go back to 0 and do coilovers first.

When all is said and done, I think my tire/wheel choice which is saving me mega unsprung weight + the lowering springs from either Cobb, Eibach, or Mountune will give me what I'm looking for, for my specific use case, for a decent while and I can get more aggressive with it down the road.

 

[Waterfan]

[MENTION=4366]IrishST[/MENTION]

FWIW, I agree with your springs vs. sways logic.

Congrats on your wheel sizing choice, I agonized over 15 v 16 for months before choosing 16. (I fantasize about a future big brake kit I most likely will never do )

These may not fit your needs, but I just want to be sure you were aware of the Swift springs option (thread here)

 

[IrishST]

[MENTION=4366]IrishST[/MENTION]

FWIW, I agree with your springs vs. sways logic.

Congrats on your wheel sizing choice, I agonized over 15 v 16 for months before choosing 16. (I fantasize about a future big brake kit I most likely will never do )

These may not fit your needs, but I just want to be sure you were aware of the Swift springs option (thread here)

Thanks for the heads up, much appreciated. I like what I'm reading and I like the fact that they are linear rate springs. My only concern is the advertised 1.1" front and 1" rear drop. After settling it could be a bit more than that and I'm concerned about rubbing. That's my big hesitation on Mountune springs as well because they advertise 1.1" front drop.

I 'think' that I'd be fine since I'm not increasing tire diameter above stock and I'm not going crazy wide or crazy low offset, but it's still a concern.

 

[RAAMaudio]

Linear rate springs are by far the way to go when you can get them, the reason is they will get stiffer as they compress but in a very controlled way. Progressive springs react quite differently, lighter rate for a bit more comfort, stiffen up in a steep curve suddenly and can unsettle the car at the wrong time which can be a considerable safety issue.

If the car is driven in a sporty and fun way and leaving room for error this is not that big a deal nearly all the time.

A car driven at the limits or in extreme unexpected situations can lead to loosing grip when needed the most.

Swift is one of the best spring manf in the world and used on countless race cars and offered as an upgrade on the really decent for the money BC coilovers.

I am a bit surprised they even make them for a low production car like ours

-----------------------

NOTE! installing springs and pushing the the struts in before tightening the strut to knuckle bolts is going to give you a fairly decent setup where you only need to adjust the toe in as lowering always changes it. There is nothing else to adjust unless the car was built poorly and camber needs tweaked a bit up front left to right or the rear axle is out of alignment.

DO NOT pay for an alignment which most do a crappy job at anyway, get a set of Longacre toe plates and set the toe in and be done with it.

Until you get into more adjustable parts there is really nothing else you can do anyway but...not a bad idea to know the thrust angle, that means if the rear axle is in alignment which I have not heard of an issue yet on this car and was not on mine which has more streetable tweaks and changes than any other FiST I know of.

 

[IrishST]

Wheels came in yesterday, tires will be here tomorrow, TPM sensors next Monday or Tuesday. I'm going to get them mounted up asap and I hope to have them in the car in ~2 weeks. Once we hit mid-march we typically don't have regular lows below 40 and as long as the lows stop dipping below 40 I'm ok with putting them on since my situation allows for my driving to almost always be by choice and usually during the day when it's warmer.

Now, that said, we had a nice day today and I was finally able to truly drive the car and test the handling some and I'm very impressed. Took a few twisty sections of a couple roads at a good spirited clip and then on the way home had to negotiate a large, sweeping right hand on-ramp, 3/4 loop style and was definitely able to get a feel for things on that bastard. All in all, very good and I'm impressed, but there was a bit of roll so even though I haven't taken it fully through its paces I've affirmed my decision to go with springs first. I'm well aware of the benefits of linear over progressive, but I've read nothing but good about both the Cobb and Mountune springs and after a call to Mountune to confirm they shouldn't cause rubbing I think I'm going to give them a shot. If I don't like them, or do decide to go linear, I can always sell them and probably make back 1/2 to 3/4 what I paid pretty easily.

EDIT:

Yup... just ordered the Mountune Sport Springs and while I was at it, the RMM... My wife is going to kill me, lol.

 

[Waterfan]

Excited to hear your near-future reviews of wheels/tires and spring upgrades

 

[IrishST]

Excited to hear your near-future reviews of wheels/tires and spring upgrades

My TPM sensors should be here Tuesday and the springs on Wednesday. I'll take the wheels and tires to be mounted next week but I can't actually put them on the car for at least a few more weeks because it's still getting into the low 30s and high 20s here. Once we consistently stop dropping under 40 I'll put them on... The springs are going on next weekend though as long as it's warm enough since my garage isn't heated.

 

[IrishST]

Still haven't gotten the tires mounted. It's still getting too cold and I don't feel like spending the money on it when I can't put them on the car. Hoping to have them mounted and on the car in 2-3 weeks. Got my springs and RMM the other day and will be putting them on this weekend. Springs have a nice feel to them I guess, but the paint is a bit dinged up which is disappointing. I'm not going to make a big deal out of it since you can't see them, but I kind of expected more from Mountune. Also, I spend over $400 on their stuff and they couldn't send me a sticker or two with the order? Cobb gave me like 6 when I ordered just the short shift kit for the Focus ST I used to have, lol.

 

[wrongwheeldrive]

I know not handling related but I would suggest buying an intercooler and going COBB stage 2. I was driving stage 1 for almost 2 years, before I did a custom tune I ran COBB OTS stage 2 and was VERY impressed with it. Definitely pulls you out of corners better and no more need to downshift to 5th to pass. The only thing you really need to buy is an intercooler...