Replacing Factory Speakers Fact and Fiction

[LilPartyBox]

In my experience, replacing paper cone, tiny magnet OEM speaker with quality components has always yielded a better sounding system. It's not going to make pretty curves or perfect frequency transitions and what not but I'll be damned if my ears aren't happier - if my bass isn't tighter - if my vocals aren't cleaner. I can understand that ur coming from an audiophiles stance but most don't care enough to get scientific about it.

That being said, I'm open to learning. I DO want to get scientific but it can get complex and so dam pricey. And I'm no audio cheapo but I'm not deep pockets either.

The last system I built had a high end HU with timing, staging and a crossover for each of the three separate 5V preamp outputs. Separate amps for each output, of course. I even went as far as setting the amp output levels with a multimeter. But that's where I stopped in my endeavors. I want to get into DSPs and external crossovers but I really don't know where to begin...

I've always built my systems for me and not for competition. So budget builds with high end components where they make the most sense (ie , head unit). But I've ALWAYS struggled to get a balanced sound. Frequencies constantly overpowering others but only for certain songs (which drove me nuts!). as you mentioned, having to mess with the EQ occasionally to make it sound better, but still not right, u know. I for one appreciate ur offer to help and will definitely reach out as I piece together my plans for the FiST.

 

[antarctica24]

I guess I missed the part about tuning speakers.......all I stated was that many nome speakers have tweeter adjustments on the back. I guess you think the manufacturers are all wrong? Let's see...I have AR's, KLH's, JBL's and Altec Lansing speakers that all have factory controls for the tweeters and some for the midrange. Should I remove those? I guess millions of audiophiles forgot ask you before they bought them? Come on don't you see that your opinion is not the same as all others? It does not make it wrong and I know of others that agree with yours but to make blanket statements that people that do not share your opinion are wrong is silly. Can all these companies be wrong? Chill dude you can't rail against the entire audio industry because they don't share your opinion that nobody should be allowed to have a tone control! I know for a fact that all laws of acoustics are the same on the planet, a car is no different just harder to deal with. We have both stated our opinions. Let's be done with this. Peace out...

Yes, I have seen tweeters with adjustments, as well as crossovers with adjustments for attenuating the highs up or down from standard. This is where some people if they like their ears to bleed a little bit or if they have a hearing problem and would like a little more highs then they can do that. But it doesn't do anything different than what the EQ or Crossover can do. Yes I see my opinion doesn't necessarily match everyone else's opinion. Some people don't know. Some people know a lot, this was not written for those that know a lot. The time and effort put into all of this showing people how to come away with a nice sounding car audio system who don't know and don't wont to spend a lot of money getting there. There are a lot of poses out there who sell audio stuff for the car, and claim to know what their doing and that is not the case, and it pisses me when people do and try to take advantage of others. That's why I don't charge for doing it. I think everyone should be entitled to good sounding audio and for those who don't know what it is, I would like to help them get there. Way too many opinions and not enough facts going around about replacing the factory speakers in this car, and not retuning it and saying it is better, which is complete hogwash. Yes, people are entitled to their own opinion even if its wrong and wouldn't know good sound if it bit them in the ear.

Obviously you are not one of those, if you are taking the time to modify and build your own home amps. You obviously know or have a decent clue as to what does and does not sound good. But the car environment is not the same as the home and I think you know that. While others may not understand you will when I say for the home I am a dedicated two channel guy but more like a 2.2 channel guy because I use 2 250 watts powered 12" klipsch subs when I am listening to movies and when not, I am listening to a pair of a/d/s L1590's which I consider to be not the best in the world, but certainly good enough to listen to music and movies through. I used to have a set of POA6600 mono blocs and I upgraded to the Krell 350 Mono's. While that is not everyone cup of tea, it has been a life long cup for me to have them in my system. I very seriously considered the Monarch Mono's for the amps, and believe it or not I use a Denon preamp with Denon Blu-Ray and hope to obtain a Panasonic 4K DVD next month I think its called the UB-900

Im an arrogant ass when it comes to email, I know it, but if we were face to face it sounds like you and I would be good friends. Between the two of us we know a lot about audio.

Keep up the fight!
Bryan

 

[antarctica24]

In my experience, replacing paper cone, tiny magnet OEM speaker with quality components has always yielded a better sounding system. It's not going to make pretty curves or perfect frequency transitions and what not but I'll be damned if my ears aren't happier - if my bass isn't tighter - if my vocals aren't cleaner. I can understand that ur coming from an audiophiles stance but most don't care enough to get scientific about it.

That being said, I'm open to learning. I DO want to get scientific but it can get complex and so dam pricey. And I'm no audio cheapo but I'm not deep pockets either.

The last system I built had a high end HU with timing, staging and a crossover for each of the three separate 5V preamp outputs. Separate amps for each output, of course. I even went as far as setting the amp output levels with a multimeter. But that's where I stopped in my endeavors. I want to get into DSPs and external crossovers but I really don't know where to begin...

I've always built my systems for me and not for competition. So budget builds with high end components where they make the most sense (ie , head unit). But I've ALWAYS struggled to get a balanced sound. Frequencies constantly overpowering others but only for certain songs (which drove me nuts!). as you mentioned, having to mess with the EQ occasionally to make it sound better, but still not right, u know. I for one appreciate ur offer to help and will definitely reach out as I piece together my plans for the FiST.

You make an argument that is hard to dispute. Why wouldn't speakers with better parts sound better? Because whats going on is you are in fact putting more power to those speakers. it is such a large deception going on in your head its hard to come to grips with. Lets take a scale to give you a frame of reference which will make a complete liar out of me with everything I have said. Let's say the fiesta ST stock system on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being the lowest and 10 being the highest, is a 1 for sake of conversation. You installed better speakers, no retune, you moved it to a 2.5. So Im a liar, right? I said it was fantasy and now Im saying better speakers can make a difference. Well, if I had said newer speakers got to you an 8 or 9 even if you bought a $1500 set of Focals (which seems to be a lot of peoples chocolate cr?me pie) I still would give you more than a 2.5 without a retune.

Take that same set of $1500 speakers and lets tune it. Now were in a place of 7-8 and were still on the factory radio. Get rid of that junk source head unit and you can easily be at a 10.

We talking music that sounds so good, I could bring tears to your eyes, like you are getting a personal performance from the musician.

Send me a PM and I will help you out with whatever you need and want to know regarding upgrading your audio system for this car.

 

[F1Fletch]

I am not a calibrated microphone.......I am an individual with normal hearing for my age......meaning as TESTED I have a sharp dropoff of hearing above 8k. So any system "tuned " to a flat response will sound dead and lifeless to me. And like all people the hearing in each ear is different. I have built custom speaker systems and tube type audio amps for many, many years and understand the goal to produce a flat response in amps and speakers. However that is to insure we reproduce what the source provides. However to get that sound to our brains it will normally require adjustments from flat.

That said implying the "best" sound is from a system tuned flat is simply incorrect. The "best" sound is only achieved with a system adjusted to an individual's hearing response. As stated a "flat" system will sound absolutly terrible for an older individual like myself.......and my system will sound overly "bright" for younger listeners. This is why most opinions on sound must be taken with a grain of salt.

My only objection to our sound system is it needs a subwoofer and the adjustments steps are too large for fine tuning on the system controls. Also for me the tweeters need help, nice domes or AMT types would clear some of the harshness when boosted.

We all adjust our sound system to our tastes.......which is in reality determined by our individual hearing. In the mid 60's to mid 70's the hearing differences were addressed by the two main sounds in speaker systems. The flatliners loved the so called "east coast" sound epitomized by AR and their sealed systems and relatively flat frequency response, on the other hand you had the "West Coast" sound epitomized by JBL with a boosted low and high end. If you enjoyed more classical types of music the AR's were the ticket. On the other hand if you were a rock fan the JBL's was the way to go. It also seemed the younger audiophiles were for the "East coast" sound and did not like the ported sound of JBL's as too bassy and a hot top. Older folks went with the ported JBL's boom and horn tweeter sizzle. So which was better? What sounds good to YOU is the only real consideration unless you need confirmation you have spent a ton of money that impresses others.......

As to replacing your speakers will make the sound "worse" is true ONLY if you believe the myth of flat as good for everyone. If you want more bass you can get that with aftermarket speakers and what exactly is wrong with wanting more bass? Same with the mid and highs, you can shop speakers to suit what you want to hear according to your ears. Your sound system should make your ears happy not some electronic response curve happy! Unless you are going to compete in audio contests don't get conned by audio "gurus" at the auto audio store and the big box "audio guy" selling you a $1000 system for what a good pair of speakers at $120 could do.

BTW, about 30% of the custom amps I built were requested to have no tone controls. All of those were younger male customers. The older(over 40) wanted loudness, bass and treble controls with the occasional mid control. I say men because I have never had a custom amp or speaker job from a female. The point being that the older guys were like me suffering from age degenerate high frequency hearing losses and needed controls to compensate. That is also why many speaker systems have high frequency adjustments. So listen to music the way you like, and crank it up! Rock on!

Well Said !!

 

[antarctica24]

Well Said !!

What are you well saiding too? That flat is bad? Flat is bad.

 

[jmrtsus]

You see we are both looking for the same thing but from different directions. To me the perfect audio amp is my 18 watt Vacuum tube mono blocks driving 1962 Altec speakers with one ten inch woofer/mid and a 10 inch "drone" (passive radiator) in a ported enclosure. I have upgraded the tweeter and crossover to a planer. The preamp is a tube type of my own design. All major components are American made except the caps. I used to spend more time buying US Tubes than building. So to some audio fans (I have never been an "audiophile") a clean tube amp and all linear system driving a "West Coast" high quality speaker is audio heaven, to other tube fans a set of 30 watt class A tube amps and a restored pair of "East Coast" AR-2's is Nirvana. And to some Tube amp fans nothing that contains a single Solid State device could ever be called "Audiophile" equipment. I cannot profess such wonderful hearing, I got started in restoring audio equipment with restoration and mods to Dynaco Solid State equipment. But I quickly realized that people old enough to know anything about tubes could make lots more money from the tube type "Audiophiles". So it all boils down to what you want........we both can achieve the same goals but on a different path.

My car is a place to crank up some old R&R and sing along like a fool. And nowhere in that scenario do I expect the sound I have at home. What I want is driven but not loud bass, slightly forward mids and an upward curve on the highs at a reasonably loud level. And that can be inexpensively ($300-$400) obtained, that is my point.

With your experience I would love to see you write something like how to upgrade the tweeter in our cars. What would be a good upgrade, how to install it. It would be the easiest and least expensive upgrade and you should be able to get down and dirty with crossovers and padding if needed. I am sure many people would appreciate your input and help. To many folks, spending hundreds on audio takes away from the performance mod budget. My most important sound upgrade will be a new exhaust when I have the money, the tweeters can wait! So a focus on cost effective upgrades for us cheapskates would be great!

 

[F1Fletch]

Well, flat is bad for my old ears but also I thought his statements highlight how subjective the whole "sounds better" subject is.

Many of us have invested countless hours and lots of dollars to what essentially can be an audio experiment....not to mention the whole car tuning thing lol

Most but not all my ventures have been successful (to my ears), but not all. I am not a big blanket statement guy, in that one methodology or application is best for everyone. Given the time and money Bing would make my car sound dreamy to my ears but I want to make it sound better to me for much much less and will experiment to satisfy my ears craving for silk tweeters and less ear bleeding mid-range. But that's just me

 

[antarctica24]

You see we are both looking for the same thing but from different directions. To me the perfect audio amp is my 18 watt Vacuum tube mono blocks driving 1962 Altec speakers with one ten inch woofer/mid and a 10 inch "drone" (passive radiator) in a ported enclosure. I have upgraded the tweeter and crossover to a planer. The preamp is a tube type of my own design. All major components are American made except the caps. I used to spend more time buying US Tubes than building. So to some audio fans (I have never been an "audiophile") a clean tube amp and all linear system driving a "West Coast" high quality speaker is audio heaven, to other tube fans a set of 30 watt class A tube amps and a restored pair of "East Coast" AR-2's is Nirvana. And to some Tube amp fans nothing that contains a single Solid State device could ever be called "Audiophile" equipment. I cannot profess such wonderful hearing, I got started in restoring audio equipment with restoration and mods to Dynaco Solid State equipment. But I quickly realized that people old enough to know anything about tubes could make lots more money from the tube type "Audiophiles". So it all boils down to what you want........we both can achieve the same goals but on a different path.

My car is a place to crank up some old R&R and sing along like a fool. And nowhere in that scenario do I expect the sound I have at home. What I want is driven but not loud bass, slightly forward mids and an upward curve on the highs at a reasonably loud level. And that can be inexpensively ($300-$400) obtained, that is my point.

With your experience I would love to see you write something like how to upgrade the tweeter in our cars. What would be a good upgrade, how to install it. It would be the easiest and least expensive upgrade and you should be able to get down and dirty with crossovers and padding if needed. I am sure many people would appreciate your input and help. To many folks, spending hundreds on audio takes away from the performance mod budget. My most important sound upgrade will be a new exhaust when I have the money, the tweeters can wait! So a focus on cost effective upgrades for us cheapskates would be great!

oh no my friend, don't get me wrong, There is a place in my heart for some tube. I used to be a big reader of speaker builder mag back in the day and have made a couple of my own, but never quite got it where I wanted it or better yet thought it should be.

Let me put some of my experience into perspective. When I am putting a system together, I am going after in the car what you have in the home. I believe I have gotten their twice. I have heard it a couple and I say a couple of other vehicles. mark Eldridge's truck was one example, though his was more mechanical than musical. I am looking to pull out the flavor of the music. Its funny, when the cars I have tuned are judged, the judges can tell which ones I have been in because of how I go about it, and what the results are. Obviously its not for everyone, but the last time out, I dropped $102,000 in the car system. Just the audio and was lucky enough to be sponsored by Nordost and able to use their Valhalla speaker wire and interconnects. I think it was the pinnacle of my car audio years and although I am trying one last time to reproduce it, I doubt I will achieve it. Im pretty sure I have heard your 62AL's, and they are nice. it took me almost 20 years of experience to build the last audio system I had in the a vehicle. While I certainly feel like I am prejudice to some extent, I would like to consider myself an unbiased judge when comparing my system to others. I certainly felt like Mark had things going on that I didn't, and I had things going on that he didn't. Had we combined ours it would have been what I like to call the finger of GOD.

Everyone has different flavors of what they like, but my instructions can do all of the hard work for you leaving you at a point that if you want to change some things, all of the hard work has already been done.

I will see what I can do on the instructions for the tweeters.
The tweeter in the door is a terrible location. They are better suited for the dash, the problem is without a retune, the time alignment Ford is using, will not work right with tweeters on the dash, or side window pockets which would be better suited. But I will see what I can come up with.

 

[antarctica24]

Well, flat is bad for my old ears but also I thought his statements highlight how subjective the whole "sounds better" subject is.

Many of us have invested countless hours and lots of dollars to what essentially can be an audio experiment....not to mention the whole car tuning thing lol

Most but not all my ventures have been successful (to my ears), but not all. I am not a big blanket statement guy, in that one methodology or application is best for everyone. Given the time and money Bing would make my car sound dreamy to my ears but I want to make it sound better to me for much less and will experiment to satisfy my ears craving for silk tweeters and less ear bleeding mid-range. But that's just me

Your right, sound is a very subjective thing. But remember what I said, everyone has their own taste, and when the judges were listening to the mediocre cars, the scores were all over the place, but when they were listening to the best cars, the scores were within 1% of each other. Now while that doesn't represent a scientific experiment using statistics, taken over 12 years and over 1000 cars and over 30 judges? what is says, is junk is relative, perfection is not. Perfection is perfection to all and for good measure Ill give you 99%.

Flat is bad for everyone except in the home. So what does that tell you?

When your setting up a 2 channel setup in the house, you generally have the speakers about 10-15 feet apart and you are about 10-20 feet away putting you in the center. You can even buy a set of Bose 301 Series 2 speakers, and in the house will sound really nice (relative)

in the car they would sound like poo. Why? When you are listen to home stuff its all FLAT. NO CORRECTION. Then it is all about the speaker, the amp, the DA converter, the CD, or Turntable.

Acoustics in the car causes you to have to make adjustments for it to sound right.

That's why I wrote the 7 pieces plus this piece, I wanted to help those so they didn't have to go through the pain and expense of trying to figure out what to do. I am sharing over 20 years of car audio experience to help those who want it to have better than great sound in their fiesta st.

I guarantee if you use the methods I have provided in your car, it will be the best sounding car stereo you have ever heard. If you use the right equipment, and go the route I did, I can put you in the top 10 percent of the best sounding cars on the road.

Outrageous claims you say? Remember what I have heard in my lifetime. I have heard all of the best cars out there that bothered to bring their car out in public. There is nothing wrong with my hearing.

 

[jmrtsus]

I too want a tweeter change. I think the problem is that it breaks up at higher levels. So a new dome is in order. Not so sure the very soft coating on a silk dome would be a good choice due to temp extremes. Maybe a poly but I think a metalic would be too shrill for me. I saw a Pioneer metal dome and a Kenwood Poly dome for $50-60 a pair. Pioneer also has a soft dome but I am not too sure of the specs....both the soft and metal are rated at 90db sensitivity, seems strange to me.

 

[antarctica24]

I too want a tweeter change. I think the problem is that it breaks up at higher levels. So a new dome is in order. Not so sure the very soft coating on a silk dome would be a good choice due to temp extremes. Maybe a poly but I think a metalic would be too shrill for me. I saw a Pioneer metal dome and a Kenwood Poly dome for $50-60 a pair. Pioneer also has a soft dome but I am not too sure of the specs....both the soft and metal are rated at 90db sensitivity, seems strange to me.

Its all in how its made, but I can tell you, the soft dome almost always sounds better over the long term. By long term there's a thing called fatigue. Your ears can only take so much.

The other really big problem here with replacing speakers without tuning, is that it only takes 20 minutes for your brain to figure out you did something different and adjust. Once it adjust your screwed and you think what your hearing actually sounds good right up until someone else listens to it that knows better. For the trained ear, you can tell something is not right, but only because you have heard specific music on a better system and your brain remembers it like food. If you eat a really good hamburger 2 years ago, and then suddenly decide to eat another hamburger at McDonalds, and you havnt had anything in between your brain will remember that better one, or just opposite, you eat McDonalds every day, then one day, you get a gourmet burger somewhere. All the sudden something is different. All of your senses work like that. But as in this example, if you eat enough McDonalds burgers and you havnt had anything else, the McDonalds Big Mac is pretty good especially if that is all your eating.

 

[F1Fletch]

Stock tweeters aren't even McDonald's Big Mac

More like .99 corn dog lol

 

[antarctica24]

Stock tweeters aren't even McDonald's Big Mac

More like .99 corn dog lol

That was funny. They do leave a lot to be desired don't they?

 

[M-Sport fan]

IF one's hearing is already diminished by 40% or more from 'average' for their (old) age, AND they have loud tinnitus to boot, does a sound system ('tuned' or not) even make any difference at all??

 

[ZREXER]

The FiSt has a sound system? The sound of the car is all the music I need.

 

[M-Sport fan]

The FiSt has a sound system? The sound of the car is all the music I need.

LOL^^^

Yes, IF they offered a weight saving radio delete option, I would have really considered it as a viable choice.