Aftermarket suspension performance numbers?

[richtor]

You are missing my point. You have no numbers, yet you make the conclusion that springs don't provide any performance benefit. You have no facts proving your conclusion, yet you mock the conclusions of those who have actually used springs.

Your conclusion without any facts whatsoever, numbers or otherwise, holds less water than those conclusions from people who have at least used it and have first hand experience.

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Let's see. You have numbers that will help create sales, convince people to buy your springs over the hundred or so other spring companies to create revenue so you can pay employees and your bills so that you and your family can afford shelter and food, yet you decide you don't need to share. Makes perfect sense.

Yes you're right. Short springs will give you a 1.2 skidpad and 1.74 peak. They are that good!

 

[MeisterR]

Wow... Happy Thanksgiving everyone... what have I missed?

Okay, I'll give my side of the story and how "coilovers" or "Adjustable damping suspension" help improve performance.

First, lets get this out of the way.... The only thing that create traction on a car is the tires!
That four rubber ring is the only thing touching the ground, and all vehicle dynamic calculation are base off that, the tries.

So how do a good adjustable suspension give you better performance.
By allowing the driver to adjust to get the most out of the tires as well as the road surfaces.

So for now, lets assume that we are all going to be using good sport compound road tires, what you would expect from the factory from Ford.
Ford have to make a suspension that work to as many people as possible, because they are not adjustable.
That mean from the enthusiast who is going to autocross the car, to the old lady who want to go shopping with it with a car that got all the option.
It need to have ground clearance for really bad area and speed humps, it needs to be low enough so the car don't drive like a SUV.
You can see, there are alot of "opposite" thing that Ford is asking the suspension to do.

So with an adjustable suspension, you have 2 advantage.
1. You can use higher springs rate than OEM.
2. You have an adjustable damper so you can dial in the damping force to take advantage of those higher springs rate.

The reason we can use a higher springs rate is because we are pairing it with an adjustable damper.
Ford couldn't use this high springs rate because there are too many compromise and no adjustable damper, so it sort of have to strike the middle ground for everything.

Using a higher springs rate, but a damper that you can dial in a lower damping force mean you have a springs setup that will produce less body movement.
The adjustable damper on softer setting will allow the suspension to move, this in term create compliancy over uneven road surfaces as well as comfort.

With the adjustable damper on stiff setting, this will take advantage of the higher springs rate, control the body movement, and force more pressure onto the tires.
This provider crisp turn in, better response, as well as better traction as you are forcing the tires to work harder.

As a driver, you can toggle between this two setting to your personal preference.
I have driver who like to ride on the street on full stiff... I find that harsh, but they like the response.
Is softer better? or is harder better? There isn't a real answer to that, because that is all up to the driver preference.

Having ability to adjust to the drive preference is the main advantage of an adjustable suspension system.

If you guys are looking for numbers, chances are performance suspension vs. OEM will have minimal difference.
Because in the end, if everyone is on the same ground in the same weather on the same tires... chances are there are limited difference.

However, if you throw 2 car on the track for an 8 hours endurance race, you will see how a good suspension that are tune to the driver preference out perform an OEM suspension.
Because when you are confident, as well as driving a car that is predictable, that is where you start to produce better lap time.

So in conclusion, it isn't all about the numbers.
It is about HOW the car feels when you are driving it on a suspension that at tune to your preference.
Are you going to be 2 second faster in a lap... maybe, maybe not.
But I know the driver will have alot more fun and confidence driving a car on a good adjustable suspension vs the OEM setup; and chances are you will be faster vs. the OEM setup.

Jerrick

 

[richtor]

There are a couple assumptions. First is that people will spend the extra coin to get the proper udjustsble coilover which has been engineered and tested with proper attachment points for correct race suspension geometry. Again this goes back to attachments distances travel plus toe and caster to create better contact for the tires. Second is you're still assuming feel will create better numbers. Lower suspension increase spring rates so the chassis does not rock side to side and people will believe it's faster and grips better.

If this is the case how low do you go before you hit negative returns? If you go any lower could that have a negative effect on oem suspension geometry?

Bottom line: if you want more grip go proper engineered Adjustable Coilovers. If you want a rougher ride get lowering springs. The oem stock suspension is damn good at .95 and 1.31 peak. We are talking 993 Porsche good!

 

[MeisterR]

There are a couple assumptions. First is that people will spend the extra coin to get the proper udjustsble coilover which has been engineered and tested with proper attachment points for correct race suspension geometry. Again this goes back to attachments distances travel plus toe and caster to create better contact for the tires. Second is you're still assuming feel will create better numbers. Lower suspension increase spring rates so the chassis does not rock side to side and people will believe it's faster and grips better.

If this is the case how low do you go before you hit negative returns? If you go any lower could that have a negative effect on oem suspension geometry?

Bottom line: if you want more grip go proper engineered Adjustable Coilovers. If you want a rougher ride get lowering springs. The oem stock suspension is damn good at .95 and 1.31 peak. We are talking 993 Porsche good!

I think you miss understood me on this, ride height have nothing to do what what I have said above.
It is all about utilising your tires the best you can.

Generally speaking, for a fast road car, you want to the springs rate to achieve somewhere around 2.0Hz wheel frequency.
This is the point where it is stiff, but not too stiff to a point where it will be uncomfortable.

And on the track, you want to use as much damping as you can use, so that typically is somewhere between 90% to 100% critical damping.
For road use, you want to be around the 60% to 70% critical damping for a fast road car in order to retain compliancy.
An adjustable damping system allows you to achieve this base on what you are using the car for.
What that mean is for specific reason, you can put more pressure on the tires in order to generate more heat / traction.

There are alot of other points I missed out such as compression / rebound cracking pressure, damping ratio, etc.
But then we are really getting into vehicle dynamics as we get further into the details.

The lowering springs / OE damper limitation is right there.
So for example, a OE setup typically runs at 60% critical damping (which isn't out of this world in terms of numbers).
Now you install a lowering springs with stiffer springs rate, but retain the OE dampers.
Yes, the car will "move" less because you have a stiffer springs rate, but you are now only running at 50% critical damping because you are still using the same OE damper.
What that mean is you aren't actually putting any more force on your tires in order to realise the performance gain of the increase springs rate.

An adjustable system allows you to use higher springs rate, as well as adjust the damping to dial into the window you want to be at.
That mean you can have a compliant suspension for fast road use, and a responsive suspension for track use, and toggle between the two quickly.

Ride height, geometry, contact patch, etc... those are separate from the actual suspension.
The entire system work as a whole, but require different set of expertise; that is why we have technical partner who are specialist in geometry because they are the one that work out what will work best for the driver base on their feedback and what they want from the car.

Jerrick

 

[neeqness]

There are a couple assumptions. First is that people will spend the extra coin to get the proper udjustsble coilover which has been engineered and tested with proper attachment points for correct race suspension geometry. Again this goes back to attachments distances travel plus toe and caster to create better contact for the tires. Second is you're still assuming feel will create better numbers. Lower suspension increase spring rates so the chassis does not rock side to side and people will believe it's faster and grips better.

If this is the case how low do you go before you hit negative returns? If you go any lower could that have a negative effect on oem suspension geometry?

Bottom line: if you want more grip go proper engineered Adjustable Coilovers. If you want a rougher ride get lowering springs. The oem stock suspension is damn good at .95 and 1.31 peak. We are talking 993 Porsche good!

Since you obviously don't know much about lowering springs and don't want to try them out to learn about it, how about we just leave it at you will stick to stock and those who want to use lowering springs will do so.

Your argument against them is so false it's bordering on laughable, but it's pointless discussing this further when you think you know something that you obviously don't. Enjoy the oem suspension if you are happy with it. To each his own...

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[richtor]

Since you obviously don't know much about lowering springs and don't want to try them out to learn about it, how about we just leave it at you will stick to stock and those who want to use lowering springs will do so.

Your argument against them is so false it's bordering on laughable, but it's pointless discussing this further when you think you know something that you obviously don't. Enjoy the oem suspension if you are happy with it. To each his own...

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What do you speak of? There's plenty of evidence from a suspension engineer agreeing with me.

MeisterR is making the explanation of handling too simplex because height weight and balance all have a great deal to do with leverage geometry and grip.
Correct height weight balance of the chassis is seperate from the suspension however this data has a great deal to with how the suspension will react on road. Which is why the geometry has to be correct.

 

[richtor]

Since you obviously don't know much about lowering springs and don't want to try them out to learn about it, how about we just leave it at you will stick to stock and those who want to use lowering springs will do so.

Your argument against them is so false it's bordering on laughable, but it's pointless discussing this further when you think you know something that you obviously don't. Enjoy the oem suspension if you are happy with it. To each his own...

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What do you speak of? There's plenty of evidence from a suspension engineer agreeing with me.

MeisterR is making the explanation of handling too simplex because height weight and balance all have a great deal to do with leverage geometry and grip. I have a feeling we speak of two different items.
Correct height weight balance of the chassis is seperate from the suspension however this data has a great deal to with how the suspension will react on road. Which is why the geometry has to be correct.

 

[MeisterR]

What do you speak of? There's plenty of evidence from a suspension engineer agreeing with me.

MeisterR is making the explanation of handling too simplex because height weight and balance all have a great deal to do with leverage geometry and grip.
Correct height weight balance of the chassis is seperate from the suspension however this data has a great deal to with how the suspension will react on road. Which is why the geometry has to be correct.

True, but at the same time that is where you work out those numbers.
Vehicle weight is part of the wheel frequency calculation, so when we work out the springs rate for the MeisterR coilovers, that has already been taken into account.
Then of course the springs rate was calculated with the wheel frequency bias already included, which is why the springs rate are set the way it was.
We do this, not alot of other company do this however... so this is where alot of difference are.

As for ride height, it does make a difference BUT you have a good window to work with.
Generally speaking, if your lower control arms isn't pointing in the wrong direction so your roll centre is way out of specs, you are okay.
Geometry of course makes a difference, if the wheels isn't pointed in the right direction the best suspension in the world is useless.

The main thing everyone in this discussion is forgetting is the dampers... that is the heart and soul of the entire suspension system.
I can use the same springs rate, but have dramatically different damper valving, and the ride characteristic will be completely different.

That is the reason why adjustable damping is such an important item for a good sport suspension, because it is necessary in order to fine tune the characteristics to the driver's preference.

Jerrick

 

[neeqness]

If you say so. I've used the product, as have others. It will take a lot more than general hypothetical theories (which by the way are not the same as "numbers") to convince me.

Again, to each his own.

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[richtor]

If you say so. I've used the product, as have others. It will take a lot more than general hypothetical theories (which by the way are not the same as "numbers") to convince me.

Again, to each his own.

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You would not know. You don't seem to have numbers. Which is exactly my question. What are the numbers?

 

[richtor]

True, but at the same time that is where you work out those numbers.
Vehicle weight is part of the wheel frequency calculation, so when we work out the springs rate for the MeisterR coilovers, that has already been taken into account.
Then of course the springs rate was calculated with the wheel frequency bias already included, which is why the springs rate are set the way it was.
We do this, not alot of other company do this however... so this is where alot of difference are.

As for ride height, it does make a difference BUT you have a good window to work with.
Generally speaking, if your lower control arms isn't pointing in the wrong direction so your roll centre is way out of specs, you are okay.
Geometry of course makes a difference, if the wheels isn't pointed in the right direction the best suspension in the world is useless.

The main thing everyone in this discussion is forgetting is the dampers... that is the heart and soul of the entire suspension system.
I can use the same springs rate, but have dramatically different damper valving, and the ride characteristic will be completely different.

That is the reason why adjustable damping is such an important item for a good sport suspension, because it is necessary in order to fine tune the characteristics to the driver's preference.

Jerrick

Exactly. I'm stating the wheels tires contact point is all part of the suspension geometry that makes the vehicle turn faster and grip more. I'm also stating you will receive more performance per dollar by going with someone like you who has put months into correct suspension alignment and engineering rather than a few hundred spent just for short springs that do nothing for chassis geometry or handling.

 

[neeqness]

You would not know. You don't seem to have numbers. Which is exactly my question. What are the numbers?

This is the funny part. See I HAVE lowering springs and I USED them. You don't and you didn't. Yet you think you know the springs better than me (and nearly everyone else who have used them).

I'm not here to convince you. I don't care if you want to use it or not. Like I said to each their own. I only came to this thread out of curiosity thinking you were searching for real facts but I see now that this is not really the case because you already believe you know.

It's like that person who balks at eating a grilled peanut butter, bacon, and banana sandwhich. They know oh so well that it will taste horrible that they mock the people who enjoy it. They don't want to try it because they already "know" that it will taste horrible and they will openly state that fact. Yet they really won't know until they actually try it...if they are brave enough to step out of their comfort zone. Occasionally such brave soul will be pleasantly surprised to find out they were wrong, but until that moment happens, no one will be able to convince them otherwise.

I know already how these springs work with my car because I used them. That fact will not change whether you believe it or not. The decision is up to you whether you will rely on your own assumptions or your personal experience, not me.

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[juliog]

The function of "lowering springs" is... lowering the car, almost always at the cost of function. The lower center of gravity and the reduced roll might might make it seem like the car handles better but more often than not, the opposite is true. Springs that are not matched to the valving of a shock, not having enough travel, etc.. will result in less grip, not more. Specially in less than perfect roads. Again, these springs are designed to make the car look good in pictures, and nothing more. Not much R&D goes into most of these.

Now, "performance springs".. are usually only slightly stiffer and/or shorter than OEM, since they are constrained by the stock shock absorber valving, suspension travel, etc. Front-rear spring rates ratio is also typically adjusted to mitigate understeer of stock setup in most cars (Fiesta is an exception, it rotates pretty well out of the box). The end result is a lower cg, reduced roll, and more playful handling balance that can be exploited by intermediate and advanced drivers. The downside is usually a harsher ride, and a shorter lifespan of the OEM struts, which will wear out faster than with OEM springs. Still, many brands will release "performance springs" without much actual performance testing, so you need to do your homework when choosing springs. Beware of companies who rush products to market.

There are cars where performance springs may be worth doing (86/BRZ), resulting in faster lap times around a track, but I'd never go that route on the Fiesta. Stock suspension balance is good, response is good, roll isn't bad for how tall the car is... but the dampers aren't any good. Way too harsh. Solid rear axle doesn't help. I can't imagine the ride with higher spring rates. I've bent both rear wheels at the track going over berms where cars with IRS have zero issues.. but with the Fiesta it feels like you just jumped off a curb.

I would only consider springs for autox. Any other application, I'd go straight to high quality (read: expensive) coil-overs. In fact, even though the Fiesta is my DD, I might end up getting coil-overs just to improve the ride on the street. It really is that bad once you've driven lots of different cars.

Edit: I also would rather go to a 16" wheel first before dropping some serious money on coil-overs, but the lack of legitimate options is frustrating. 16x8 would be my ideal size.

 

[neeqness]

You say the stock suspension is good but then say that the oem dampers are way too harsh which seems to contradict but I like that you at least admit the problem.

I agree to this statement that the dampers are too harsh but only too harsh with the oem springs. The suspension is not really about the damper itself or the spring but rather how well that the two work together to get the performance you want. The lowering springs that I use are a bit softer than oem springs. They are engineered for the dampers and take away the extra harshness that was inherent in the oem dampers (when used with oem springs). Another way to look at it could be that maybe the oem springs were too harsh for the oem dampers...but in any case that extra harshness is no longer there.

Ideally wheels that stay planted on the road the most, do their job best. It is the suspension's job to keep them planted and the lowering springs that I have used do this better with the oem dampers than the oem springs did.

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[richtor]

Thanks Juliog for confirming my suspicions about the absence of numbers.

Neeqness, you not only lost travel through adding short springs but you made it easier bottom out because a lower spring rate, and you think you have more grip based on this? Interesting.

 

[richtor]

Double

 

[neeqness]

Thanks Juliog for confirming my suspicions about the absence of numbers.

Neeqness, you not only lost travel through adding short springs but you made it easier bottom out because a lower spring rate, and you think you have more grip based on this? Interesting.

Where are YOUR numbers? Where is your proof that lowering the Fiesta will not improve performance. Why do you assume the oem Fiesta is at the best height for performance? It is manufactured for the street and for the needs of the average consumer, not someone who is trying to tweak performance.

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[richtor]

.95g skidpad grip.
1.31g peak grip.
OEM.

My numbers.

 

[neeqness]

Except you were talking about lowering springs...those numbers were not done with lowering springs. You did not answer my other questions.

Secondly, if you are trying to compare based on those numbers, whoever came up with those numbers would have to test the lowering springs under the exact same conditions to give a true comparison. This has not happened. You and I both know you have no numbers for the lowering springs. You do not know if they are better or not.


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[richtor]

Except you were talking about lowering springs...those numbers were not done with lowering springs. You did not answer my other questions.

Secondly, if you are trying to compare based on those numbers, whoever came up with those numbers would have to test the lowering springs under the exact same conditions to give a true comparison. This has not happened. You and I both know you have no numbers for the lowering springs. You do not know if they are better or not.


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Manufacturers who sell lowering springs need to give the customer a reason to purchase their springs. My question is what is that reason? If the answer is for performance they the manufacturer should have data to back up this answer. I'm asking what that data is.