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Aftermarket suspension performance numbers?

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#1
As the title says what are the performance numbers for after market suspension?
I'm looking for skidpad, braking, and peak lateral acceleration for the following:
Lowering Springs
Full Suspension Kits
Coilover Set Up

If the aftermarket company is on top of their game(not just one size shorter springs fits all) they should also have the following engineering specs.
Roll Center(Front and Rear) -
Roll Axis -
CG (Center of Gravity) -
Understeer -
Oversteer -
Neutral Steer -
Spring Rate -
Motion Ratio -
Wheel Rate -
Roll Bind -
Roll Steer -
Bumpsteer -
Ackerman -
Camber -
Caster -
Toe -
 


MeisterR

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#2
Just saying this as a aftermarket suspension company.
All those number change and have so many variance that it is pointless to publish.

The main part of the suspension is the tires.
If you are using economy Prius tires verse a set of BF Goodridge Rival semi-slick tires, those number will be completely different.

With coilovers, everything also change according to how the user adjust the car.

Springs rate we publish, because the customers need to know what they are buying.
The Motion Ratio on the other hand isn't a "secret" to say, but no one will want to publish it if we have gone through the trouble to measure it.
I mean we have to bring a car in, get it on the ram, get it on the scale, measure everything up.
To publish it out so the next "suspension manufacture" can take those number without lifting a finger isn't really a good deal for us.

Just thought I want to say my thought.
it isn't like we don't have those data, it is just giving relevant data to user is all that matter to us.
It is about getting a suspension that will do what the owners want it to do.

Everything else are basically marketing rubbish / politics that honestly I wouldn't want to get involved in.

Jerrick
 


OP
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Thread Starter #3
So how does your suspension improve performance based on the oem summer tires.

I posted all the other data not to have a company measure it, but to see if they actually take the time to engineer their parts so they get the desired results for better handling.

I am not into the hatch world. However, I know that lowering and older mustangs will actually increase the snap oversteer because the suspension geometry was created wrong in the first place.

After saying all that, how do we know that the aftermarket suspension is actually improving handling performance?
 


MeisterR

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#4
So how does your suspension improve performance based on the oem summer tires.

I posted all the other data not to have a company measure it, but to see if they actually take the time to engineer their parts so they get the desired results for better handling.

I am not into the hatch world. However, I know that lowering and older mustangs will actually increase the snap oversteer because the suspension geometry was created wrong in the first place.

After saying all that, how do we know that the aftermarket suspension is actually improving handling performance?
One of the biggest thing you can do with adjustable coilovers is you are able to run a higher springs rate.
So for example, a normal OEM suspension wouldn't run close to 2.0Hz wheel frequency because it will be too harsh.
With an adjustable damper, you are able to run close to 2.0Hz and "get away" with it because you can adjust the damper to have a lower compression cracking pressure and that mean a more comfortable ride.

So the softer adjustment mean you have less body movement (due to the higher springs rate), but at the same time not major lost of comfort (due to the softer damping).
On the stiffer adjustment where you need the performance, the adjustable damper mean you can run close to "critical damping" and get the most out of the springs and tires.

On the Fiesta ST, the rear motion ratio is really high, and that mean it is very sensitive to springs rate and damping change.
The rear damper actually move MORE than the wheel.

Aside from wheel frequency, getting those right along with the damping, really are all that you need.
You got to make sure the front and the rear do not hit a suspension harmonic having the wheel cycle frequency too close (especially important on a road car with a full tank of gas).
You got to make sure in most case the drive wheel is the wheel with the lower frequency so it will generate more traction (there are exception so this is just a general rule).

Once you can work out the vehicle dynamics, you are about 90% there.
Yes, there are cases where you have odd balls, but those are few and far between.
If you get the math and the numbers right, you actually aren't far off most of the time.

Of course, getting the numbers right in the first place is actually the more difficult part.
Get the corner weight wrong? The final result is off.
Get the motion ratio wrong? The final result is off.
Customer buy a suspension designed for a race car with aero, then proceed to put it on this weekend road and track car?
The ride is going to be rubbish because the customer bought the suspension designed for a different use.
All those have to be taken into consideration.

In your case with the Mustang.
You have to look at everything holistically.
If you lower the car and the rear is going to be toeing out with no way to adjust it, bad idea.
If you lower the car with heavier springs rate with toe out and using a damper that isn't providing enough rebound force for the new springs rate... even a worst idea.

But once you get into alignment, contact patch, etc...
That is another field, and normally I pass that over to geometry specialist that I work with.
They are the person to make sure all the roll centre, camber, toe, caster, etc are what the driver want.
Because alignment is another thing that is very driver preference oriented, as in everyone like different things and you really need to work with the driver to get a setting that they like.

Jerrick
 


OP
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Thread Starter #5
MeisterR runs race teams correct? What series and vehicle do you run?
 


MeisterR

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#6
MeisterR runs race teams correct? What series and vehicle do you run?
We don't really run race team, we are a suspension supplier and that is what we do.
What we normally do is work with specialist who run race team or race themselves, and we get them on the podium (the main reason for racing).

We are control suspension supplier for 2 MSA Regulated racing series (5Club Racing and Max5), both Miata racing series in the UK.
We are in talk and testing with the BMW Mini Cup to provide suspension to them also.

We help a fair bit of Drifting.
Our sponsored driver won the 2013 British Drift Championship, beating people like Monster Energy, Lucas Oil, etc.

Won alot in the VTEC Challenge, pretty much dominated the first 4 years in that series.

Won the last 2 years of the Japanese Drag series with a customer build GT1 design specifically for drag use.

And a few other things.

You can have a look what we have done...
https://www.meisterr.com/about-us/why-meisterr/

We might be a bit quiet in 2016 just because we spend so much time in the transition of opening up our USA office.
I actually need to start working out what podium finisher is on MeisterR this year.

Jerrick
 


Plainrt

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#8
Good info. Wasn't too sure about you guys at first but might just find a set of coilovers from you under my car next spring.
 


BRGT350

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#9
there is more to the story on the Mustang for snap oversteer. Not to derail this conversation, but the snap oversteer was a result of bushing bind from the converging 4-link rear suspension geometry. The upper arms would bind and the release of energy caused the rear of the car to go into oversteer. The problem with lowering Fox body Mustangs is from the drastic change in roll centers. The front roll center moves too low compared to the rear, which was set by the 4-link. This inclination created some very odd handling. I fixed all of this on my Mustang by going with a complete Maximum Motorsports suspension, including K-member with revised pick-up points, pan hard rod, and torque arm. It actually sits pretty high compared to what most kids run these days, but the geometry is correct.

Very little of this relates to the Fiesta. Completely different cars with very different geometry. The theory of roll centers, motion ratios, wheel rate vs spring rate, anti-dive, anti-squat, toe change over a range of motion all relate to both cars. From there, things diverge rapidly. Having both a highly modified Fox Mustang and a Fiesta, I approach the cars totally differently. Both have very different uses for me. One is a dedicated autocross car that never leaves the garage and the other is year round daily transportation.

The numbers you are looking for are almost impossible to find and require a great deal of effort to calculate on the car. Only a few people would know what to do with all of that information even if it was available.
 


OP
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Thread Starter #11
there is more to the story on the Mustang for snap oversteer. Not to derail this conversation, but the snap oversteer was a result of bushing bind from the converging 4-link rear suspension geometry. The upper arms would bind and the release of energy caused the rear of the car to go into oversteer. The problem with lowering Fox body Mustangs is from the drastic change in roll centers. The front roll center moves too low compared to the rear, which was set by the 4-link. This inclination created some very odd handling. I fixed all of this on my Mustang by going with a complete Maximum Motorsports suspension, including K-member with revised pick-up points, pan hard rod, and torque arm. It actually sits pretty high compared to what most kids run these days, but the geometry is correct.

Very little of this relates to the Fiesta. Completely different cars with very different geometry. The theory of roll centers, motion ratios, wheel rate vs spring rate, anti-dive, anti-squat, toe change over a range of motion all relate to both cars. From there, things diverge rapidly. Having both a highly modified Fox Mustang and a Fiesta, I approach the cars totally differently. Both have very different uses for me. One is a dedicated autocross car that never leaves the garage and the other is year round daily transportation.

The numbers you are looking for are almost impossible to find and require a great deal of effort to calculate on the car. Only a few people would know what to do with all of that information even if it was available.
Yes the mustang rear roll center was too high and the front to low. Many lowering spring actually placed the front roll center below the ground. Point being just lowering a car does not make it handle better and could lead to less grip.

I was hoping to find braking, skidpad and peak corner g information on the stock re050 tires to see if suspension that companies are marketing are actually beneficiary to the handling of the ST. Maybe there are no numbers because the $500 springs are not statistically significant.
 


neeqness

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#12
Yes the mustang rear roll center was too high and the front to low. Many lowering spring actually placed the front roll center below the ground. Point being just lowering a car does not make it handle better and could lead to less grip.

I was hoping to find braking, skidpad and peak corner g information on the stock re050 tires to see if suspension that companies are marketing are actually beneficiary to the handling of the ST. Maybe there are no numbers because the $500 springs are not statistically significant.
Have you used any of the lowering springs on your FiST?

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OP
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Thread Starter #13
No I won't be unless someone can show me statistically significant more grip over stock. The point of this thread was to bring forth data on lowering springs. So far nada...
 


neeqness

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#14
No I won't be unless someone can show me statistically significant more grip over stock. The point of this thread was to bring forth data on lowering springs. So far nada...
You probably won't find it. I think most people drop it for looks although I'm sure there are some who do it for performance. But I don't know of anyone who runs numbers on lowering springs...

Sent using Tapatalk
 


neeqness

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#16
Well, I like to hear feedback from other people but I realize that everyone is different (myself included). So I usually ultimately try things out for myself. People have their own opinions of what works best for them (myself included) and it seems that you prefer to trust numbers, regardless of the fact that even numbers can be tainted.

But the truth is...if there are no numbers at all, then there is no "proof" either way. Simple as that. To believe otherwise without any evidence or facts is just being presumptuous, nothing more. At least I actually tried them out.

If you bought it and tried it...tested it out for yourself...then you could make a factual statement based on your experience. But to say that something is untrue without using any appropriate evidence or without even taking your own experience into account is to do the exact opposite.

Sent using Tapatalk
 


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#17
I went with coils for better dampers, because the OEM ones Ford used are trash.

Everything else was just a side benefit of better dampers. The car definitely feels like it handles better but I have no data to back it up because I'm not that serious about car modding, I do it for fun not for points.
 


OP
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Thread Starter #18
Well, I like to hear feedback from other people but I realize that everyone is different (myself included). So I usually ultimately try things out for myself. People have their own opinions of what works best for them (myself included) and it seems that you prefer to trust numbers, regardless of the fact that even numbers can be tainted.

But the truth is...if there are no numbers at all, then there is no "proof" either way. Simple as that. To believe otherwise without any evidence or facts is just being presumptuous, nothing more. At least I actually tried them out.

If you bought it and tried it...tested it out for yourself...then you could make a factual statement based on your experience. But to say that something is untrue without using any appropriate evidence or without even taking your own experience into account is to do the exact opposite.

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Factual statement based of feel? That's funny!
That must be why the magazines state feel with no numbers.
 


BRGT350

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#19
I went with coils for better dampers, because the OEM ones Ford used are trash.

Everything else was just a side benefit of better dampers. The car definitely feels like it handles better but I have no data to back it up because I'm not that serious about car modding, I do it for fun not for points.
your car came with coil springs from the factory and even coil spring over strut. I have no idea why people keep saying they went with coils. Congrats, you are using a coil spring, the same that has been used for decades on cars.

What data do you have to support the Ford dampers are trash? I find that is quite contrary to what many think. I actually find the factory dampers to be great, and even better with a slight increase in spring rate. The rear was a little over damped, so upping the spring rate helped. I am very interested in your reasoning to support why the dampers are trash.
 


BRGT350

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#20
No I won't be unless someone can show me statistically significant more grip over stock. The point of this thread was to bring forth data on lowering springs. So far nada...
sadly, I don't think such data exists. Getting quantifiable numbers on handling is hard. You can have skid pad force give you a number, but the suspension may be totally unusable on the street. You can have lap times, but there are hundreds of factors that play into a lap time. You can get into the real engineering data like natural frequency, comfort curves, shock dyno curves, and all the engineering data that a suspension will spit out, but it is very hard to compare to what your ass feels in the seat. As an ex-suspension engineer, it isn't easy to put numbers down that really mean much to anyone. Suspensions are a compromise and picking the best compromise is the best you can do. That takes actual data, geometry, and seat time to determine what is the best. What makes the best skid pad result or the best lap time is probably the last thing you want on the street. What is the best in terms for comfort tends to be the worst for performance.
 


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