Inexpensive audio upgrade info

[GAbOS]

Considering the
Bluetooth streaming or mp3 direct input most of the time, I have no reason to
make my audio better only to hear the fine nuance of compressed audio more clearly.

HDTracks.com and the Onkyo HF Player phone app will get you 24bit DSD audio.

 

[jmrtsus]

I know little-to-nothing about audio. But the above said, doesn't that imply that quality 3-way speaker replacements may be key here?

If you add the sub and use High Pass Filters you are effectively creating a three way system. By reducing the low bass on the door speaker they are now free to use the available power for clean midbass/midrange without the cone break-up. But by all means if your budget allows a good quality 3-way go for it. You will need some luck finding a shallow mount 3-way driver to fit the ST. A quick Crutchfield search found these two, Sony has a 5 1/4 3-way that will fit but it is just basically a 2-way with a super tweeter out to 24Khz. Also Pioneer makes a 5 1/4 3-way. Have not heard ether but with a sub these will sound cleaner than stock, both have decent reviews other than dummies that expected bass from a 5 1/4 driver. I don't know about longevity though. I prefer Butyl rubber surround for long life. Probably more choices out there but I don't know that the sound will be much better than a 2-way with sub. From what I have heard and what Neeqness says above a sub alone will clean things up nicely with stock speakers. I heard the ST with just the Sound Ordnance sub added but did no critical listening as the driver was using an MP3 file. Seemed to be OK as I remember no bad impressions.

 

[neeqness]

Just a reminder: if you add a sub and keep stock, do also place high pass filters on the fullranges. The filters are cheap and it makes all the difference at clearing up the sound. The tweets don't need it because they should already have it.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk

 

[Kazz]

My thanks to you both!

 

[antarctica24]

Just a reminder: if you add a sub and keep stock, do also place high pass filters on the fullranges. The filters are cheap and it makes all the difference at clearing up the sound. The tweets don't need it because they should already have it.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk

While there are varying opinions, Keeping the factory speakers where they are crossover wise. This will allow the fronts to play down to where they naturally roll off, and it will help bring the sub image to the front of the vehicle by acting as reinforcement.

 

[antarctica24]

Inexpensive audio upgrades to your ST car audio

The subject of Audio is something that can get really deep into electronic theory and applications. Do you as a car owner need to understand it all to make some improvements? No. Do you need to spend thousands to make improvements? No.

Let�s start with some major terms in audio, first is analog, which is a change in amplitude or volume and frequency or tone. Our eardrums move just like a speaker, slowly in and out with low tones like bass and quickly with high notes. So in a nutshell sound is created analog and we hear it analog. The analog signal is simply increased in magnitude, called gain or amplification to drive a speaker. The best amplifier has always been the rhetorical �straight wire with gain�. Meaning nothing in between input and output to alter the sound, impossible to achieve perfectly but we can come very, very close to output equals input in well designed analog amplifiers.

Digital is simply a term to define devices that work with a binary (two state) signal of on and off or 0 and 1. We do this by using analog to digital converters to create the digital representation of the analog signal. From there we can take a stream of data that looks like this 0101101001001��..and manipulate these bits to modify the sound in various ways. After the manipulation the digital data is the converted back to an analog signal for your ears.
What difference does it make to an ST owner? It makes a big difference. First, digital is less expensive to make and power, second it is very efficient and hence small, and third the least expensive to provide a high quality 12V sound system. Analog is power hungry (inefficient), expensive to produce and large and heavy. Digital systems dominate the 12V market as the requirements for a high quality system in a car demands three goals, low cost, small space, and high quality.

Many people new to the electronics field think digital audio is some ultra new high tech wonder, not true. AT&T pioneered it over 50 years ago in the telephone industry. Without the digital infrastructure of the telephone industry the internet could not exist today. Digital systems including fiber optics and lasers were also pioneered and first utilized in the telephone industry long ago. I was fortunate in the electronics industry to enter at the close of tube type equipment and solid state (transistors, also developed by AT&T) started to dominate electronics along with early digital systems. I ushered in the digital age with AT&T and was a pioneer in digital systems years before the consumer audio people even knew what it could do. Digital Signal Processing was used in amateur radio equipment for consumers, as a Ham radio operator that builds my own equipment I used DSP, Digital Signal Processing again years before the consumer audio market understood its capabilities. Digital audio is only relatively new to the 12V auto sound and inexpensive higher power amp markets like cheap A/V systems. The rest of the electronics industry has been working with it for many, many years even though some seem to believe it is brand new, only to them. The single most important reason for digital audio popularity is it finally reached a price point that makes good quality equipment available at very low prices.
Digital has its share of poor sound, see below for some examples of the inherent problem in the signal sources for digital audio. There are many other forms of audio files and systems but this will give you a taste of the problems in digital audio. Good info if you did not know about it.

�Automotive News
Lost in transmission
The growing popularity of compressed digital formats is a sore spot for makers of audio systems, who want to support customer preferences but worry that listeners don't know what they're missing.
And it's a lot. While music from a CD flows at about 1,400 kilobytes per second, songs from Apple's iTunes store usually play at 256 kbps. Streaming Internet radio services such as Pandora compress songs even further, to about 64 kbps.
Chop those files in half, and you get satellite radio. To beam down its tunes, Sirius compresses them to 32 kbps -- about 1/50th the fidelity of a CD."


And if you use MP3 files even worse news awaits you. MP3 compression effectively kills all signals above about 14 KHz even though your amp and speakers will produce highs out to 20 KHz or better. If you use a memory stick or phone for audio on MP3 files in your ST any tuning or upgrades are almost a lost cause due to the loss of the sibilance signals affecting voice tones and percussion instruments. Listening to Joe Bonamassa rip a guitar to shreds sounds ten times better on CD than MP3. Try it, play a track from a CD then the same track on a MP3 file.

Distortion is another term to define; in an amplifier it is signals in the audio stream that are different from the input signal. Noise is one type of distortion along with an alphabet of other possible distortions. The two most common types are harmonic distortion (THD) and intermodulation distortion (IM). These have long been tamed in both analog and digital amps and generally of no concern so no reason to dwell on them here. Digital on the other hand modifies the original signals and adds a whole new layer to the subject of distortion.

One of the objections to digital audio is the quantization errors. Quantization is the process of converting a range of input values like an analog signal into a smaller set of values (numbers) that closely approximates the original signal. That term is not mine but comes from the designers of the analog to digital converters used in digital audio. Why closely approximates? Because the analog to digital converter only takes sample reading of a continuous audio signal, not the entire signal. So the whole analog signal is no longer even present in the digital data, just a sampling that is reassembled into a �close approximation� of the input in a digital to analog converter to drive an amp. Also the sampling rate will determine the number of samples taken and the more the better. But the analog input will not be 100% sampled.

You also have �bit depth� to deal with. Bit depth in the number of bits used to quantify or define the input signal. If we use 8 bits to quantify we have 256 combinations to define the signal, if 16 bits are used to quantify the sample the resolution we would have over 65 thousand combinations to define the sample and at 24 bit depth we would be over 16 million combinations. So bit depth is important to sound because the more we can define an analog signal the more accurate it will be. And bit depth can and does change often in a digital chain, if we go to or from 16 to 24 bits we �dither� the data to make the transition. In other words, even more approximations.

But the real numbers and approximation problems lie in the sampling rate, how often the sample of the signal is taken. The best way to understand sampling rates is a visual example. If we take a photograph of the Mona Lisa and cut it into 100 equal size strips and reassemble it with every other strip missing our eyes will still recognize it as the Mona Lisa but will it be the same? Of course not. Digital systems attempt to fill the spaces with �approximations�, what an algorithm (formula) tries to guess is placed there. So now we have a Mona Lisa with � the original information and the other � mathematical �approximations.� The picture will be closer to the original but in reality can never be the exact copy with half of the information approximated. Even with this and all the other problems in 12v audio digital it is still the best bet for cars if your budget allows and your heart desires it. By careful reassembly and lots of manipulation of data we can get a very good audio product. But who can't understand the fact that approximations of � of the signal are never as good as the original no matter what we use for error corrections in digital.

Analog systems still dominate the home audiophile market for one reason. They are the best at reproducing the signal that matches the analog input source because we retain the entire original recording signal not half and approximate the other half. At home we don�t have to concern ourselves with power consumption as we don�t have an alternator or battery. We are not as concerned about equipment size either. My home amp is two 18 watt RMS class AB vacuum tube mono blocks total weight is a little under 30 pounds.
A home audio enthusiast �tunes� his room to provide as close to a resonance free environment as possible for a good sound. We are also free to have large highly efficient speaker systems so that only 10 watts will easily fill a room with solid sound. And 18 watts will provide 105dB sound levels. Equivalent to a chain saw full bore at 3 feet. Loud, damn loud! Home audiophiles also understand the drawbacks and limitations of digital sources like CD�s. Digital music has been defined as �strident, harsh, edgy� and many other terms to define its aural properties. That effect is lessened in a noisy environment like a car where the background noise competes with the audio in your ear.
In a car we don�t have the absolute freedom to tune the car interior which is the epitome of a terrible listening environment to start with. We can manipulate the digital data to tune the amplifier and counteract the car resonances. This is much cheaper to do with data than analog circuits in a car. In a home listening room the acoustics do not significantly change, in a car used as a daily driver things like windows or Moon Roof open, package shelf removed, seat positions, temperature, rear seats down or even the load in the hatchback area can alter the resonances and the �tune�. In auto sound competition the car is judged in one configuration only��.the one it is tuned for. Tuning in a car is not dependant on the type of system, analog or digital �tuning� is a one configuration is correct and all others are compromises.

So what does one do that has no desire to spend thousands on audio?

Start with this quote�.
"Out of all of the options you can add into a car, premium audio has the largest profit margin for an automaker," says Mark Boyadjis, a senior analyst at IHS Automotive. "There's not always a lot of cost involved in creating a premium audio system."

The speakers are one of the lowest costs in the system in our ST�s. What Sony did is have a woofer and tweeter made or existing ones modified to meet a cost/performance envelope for the contract with Ford. They met their goal and we have a better than stock sounding system. Audiophile was never in the conversation between Ford and Sony. All Ford wanted was a name brand audio system that performed better than stock and with a nice profit margin. Sure Sony �tuned� the audio to work better with the car's interior but this was to tune out the effects of the car not to make the speakers sound better due to speaker deficiencies. Since the speakers have little to do with the resonances of the interior of the car then as long as the replacement speakers are roughly the same in frequency response the �tune� will have the same effect on the replacement driver. With the speakers in the door they are not affected like they are operating in a tuned, sealed or ported enclosure. The door panels are acoustically called an infinite baffle meaning they are not tuned to a specific frequency so again any factory tune will have a minimal effect on them. Do not buy the set of four 2000 watt 6 ��drivers for $9.99 from the flea market, audio show or Freight Outlet. Buy a quality product and you will be fine.

Replacing the stock speakers are not some kind of disaster scenario, as the reviews on many quality speakers show customers were satisfied in the high 90 percents. Our 6 � inch speakers are not much different from the average 6 � inch quality replacements in frequency response. We can do better with a higher quality speaker, things like a more expensive, stiffer, lighter cone and stronger magnets will increase efficiency and transient response for tighter mid bass and a clearer mid range.

So if you are like the majority and do not want to spend a fortune what do you do?

The answer to that question begs more questions like what do you want to change with your factory system? For example, if you are happy with the sound in general but want more bass then a subwoofer is the simple answer. Read some reviews and decide if you want a box in the hatch area or a hidden sub, get some input from others and go shopping. Changing the door speakers will do little for more bass. If you are not happy with the overall sound then replacement speakers can fill the bill with some limitations depending on staying stock looking or modifying your interior. The only real decisions you must make is whether to utilize the existing door mounted tweeters, adding external mounted tweeters or simply disconnecting the existing tweeters and utilize the tweeters in new coaxial speakers.

My opinion after listening to the combination listed below in a regular Fiesta with the premium sound system like ours was a distinctly positive impression. A friend tried this combo with and without the factory tweeter and preferred not using the factory door tweeters, and after bouncing back and forth from my stock system car to his cleared up some of my issues with the stock system. The placement and low quality of the door tweeters create a harsh sound and beaming effect to my hearing. Utilizing all four tweeters in the replacement speakers made the beaming disappear and provides an open airy feel to the highs, using four tweeters compensated somewhat for the losses with them being located so low in the door. The difference in the midrange is apparent to me in the clearing of what I felt was a muddy sound. With the sub you have a lower extension and stronger physical feel. Is it like a 10� 300 watt sub in a box�..no. But then it is invisible.

If I purchased today (not until after my exhaust) and I had only $500 to spend this is what, why and how I would have it installed. Does this mean this is the best thing for everyone? No, because you may not have the same goals as I do. You may have a higher goal and funds or lower. I am 65 years old and as such I have normal age related high frequency hearing losses. The four tweeters may be too bright sounding for a 30 year old. You also may be happier with simply replacing the front speakers or utilizing the existing door tweeters. Define what you want to do.

What this system will do is give an improved low frequency response that is not going to vibrate your mirrors, higher efficiency, improved midrange and a fairly bright sound that may need adjustment of the factory EQ for some listeners. All for about $500 installed and hundreds less if you can do the installation yourself.

Sub
Crutchfield Sound Ordnance B-8PTD
Why?
125 watts and an 8� aluminum cone driver give solid if not super low bass, located under the driver�s seat actually gives bass you can feel. Add a 3 year warranty, high customer satisfaction and $150 price and it is also a winner. Wiring to the rear speakers allows you to use the fader to adjust the bass level. I had one for years in my previous ride.

Door speakers
Infinity Reference REF-6522EX
Why?
Rubber surround and poly cone for the woofer will work more efficiently and longer than foam surrounds, textile (cloth) dome tweeters for a smooth sound and a very high customer rating along with a high efficiency rating make it a winner. After hearing it I don�t think you can do much better for the price, not that I have auditioned all possible choices. I have been an Infinity speaker fan for many years and never had an issue.

Will these two changes break the bank? $140 for the door speakers online shipped and $150 plus shipping for the subwoofer leaves about $ 200 for wiring/installation for the sub, the doors are an easy DIY for some people. And you can install the sub yourself if you are capable of it. Have more money to spend? Go for component speakers with a tweeter in the �A� pillars or a rear mounted sub and amp. Have less money? Leave the rear speakers stock and change just the front pair for now.

I did not buy my ST for serious listening, that I do at home. There is not a 12V audio system that will compete with that so I have no desire to try. In my cars I prefer Steppenwolf�s �Born to be Wild� dimed out with bass thumping my butt and sizzling cymbals assaulting my ears while hard driving a back country mountain road. Touching the sound system in my car is a good reason to stop and open the passenger door for you with two exceptions, my wife and my Autistic grandson who has HIS listening mode.
The thousands of engineers that have spent hundreds of thousands of man hours designing aftermarket drivers and the 10�s of millions of happy customers are not all wrong. You will not be either, try to listen to other systems and ask other ST owners for their suggestions. But please feel free to change your speakers, your life will not end, your car will not self destruct and your ears and wallet will thank you.

Hearing is like your other 4 senses, we all are different and we have our own preferences. If you hate the taste of Brussels sprouts do you think you can be talked into suddenly liking them? If you dislike the feel of wool on your bare skin is it because you never learned to feel it correctly? I know people that think Picasso was a real artist; I guess my eyes were not trained correctly. I don�t. I think the smell of newly mowed grass is great, my wife says it stinks. Your senses are unique to you, let YOUR ears do the listening��.and when the music makes YOU smile you have found what the other tens of millions that replaced their factory speakers have. You don�t have to spend tons of money to get better sound in your car. Just start with the weakest link�..the cheap drivers used in the car.

Please feel free to ask questions about low cost upgrades or share what you have done for the rest of us.

If you want to argue about digital wait until a digital signal has the entire analog signal encoded, is not dithered and the A/D and D/A designers stop having to use the word approximation so they don't get sued. Then get back to me.

Jmrtsus,

First, Thank you for writing this up. I think its nice, informative, and I agree with 99% of what you said. Its good for people to get various opinions about what is and is not good audio.

I completely admit that I came at this from a different approach. So many times, people go to attack installing the whole audio thing and are really excited about what the results are. And there is nothing wrong with that, but there is more. You have me at a disadvantage, you have 16 years on me. The very first DSP I ever used was the Techniques DA-1000 back in 86. Again agreeing with 99% of everything you have said here, There are some differences and I dont want to create a ruckus over those differences, but my point from the beginning has been for people to understand there is something better than just replacing speakers. Taking out the inefficient factory speakers and replacing them with a more efficient speaker will make the car sound louder and depending on the speaker it may sound cleaner. But there is a lot of room to go. I get that your getting up there in age like myself, but having listened to over 1000 competition vehicles in my judging career, there are huge differences in the dsp technology today than 50 years ago. HUGE, I have owned and heard cars, that would rival 100,000 2 channel home systems and you dont have to spend 100,000 to get there. I too am a huge fan of analog and own a massive album collection so I get it. But just because I have converted a song from an album to a wav file, 44.1K, What I have given up is very very small. These cars I have judged range from the novice class, which is where I would everyone on this site that has upgraded their sound system to the expert class, which is where most of the manufacture sponsored vehicles compete and where I competed.

http://www.thephysicsmill.com/2013/01/06/sound-vinyl-records-vs-digital-files/

And considering "From the article" we are human, and can only hear so well anyway, with a high enough resolution, a human cannot detect the difference and if your hearing is bad, you certainly cannot detect the difference, especially I am mean no offense by this, if you are saying, "4 tweeters sounds good". Im sure it does to you. Most people would be sitting there with blood running out of their ears. Just as it is "by your own words" telling me why am I telling everyone they need a processor, It sounds like what your saying here is it doesnt make a difference, and I really sorry, but it does on so many levels. I wanted people to know that there is something better to be experienced, and just because you would not be capable of hearing it and enjoying, doesn't make it bad.

Just like buying the Fiesta ST, you were driving a corolla, and you think, man this car is awesome. And if you never drove anything else, you would also think it was the best available. But until you upgraded that turbo, and had to retune the car, because the computer was not tuned to work with the new turbo, installing the new turbo would not make any difference unless you retuned the computer to match the new parts. Everything you said about the factory speakers is true. It cost about $3-5 in quantities to build the factory speakers if that, and the industry as a whole has a 40% markup on its parts so if you take MSRP and divide by 1.4 that is dealer cost on all electronics sold in the US. Then you have their manufacturing cost which varies depending on parts used. So you can do the math and get the picture. But what people fail to take into consideration is not all parts are of the same quality and same cost. So when your starting out, with your factory speaker parts which are on the cent a piece, something like a focal may be $5.00. It is still 500 times more expensive and it is a better quality part.

You can absolutely buy a powered sub, and upgrade the system. And it will sound better than it did. I am not sure I would use an 8", as it is never going to have the extension of an 10" but to each their own. Why would you spend $149.00 on an 8 when you could spend the same money on a 10"? And as for replacing the front speakers, and rear speakers, for about $250.00, you can do that and it will sound better. And if that is all you want to spend, so be it. But if you are one of those people, who might have an interest in something better. There is better to be had and replacing the factory speakers with a powered sub, is one option.

Everyone has different taste, and I am so willing to give you a nod for teaching audio for so long. Its great that you were able to bring that knowledge to so many people. But if you are having a hearing problem and saying that 4 tweeters in the car sounds good, I am not sure how you could give audio advice on what would and would not sound good in someones car, especially if your using the same car.

 

[M-Sport fan]

^^^^Since you brought up Focals (I had a set of their 6.5 co-axes in the front door of my 4th gen f body, fed by one of those tiny little 'in line' Alpine 45Wx4 amps mounted in the dash, and loved them!);

Is our factory head unit/amp source SO BAD/'filthy' that even with the use of; whatever pass filters, Audio Control LC2i, and even the given advantages of the Focal's higher efficiency, make the cost of the Focals integrated into our factory system (IF they even make anything we could use in our doors currently) money flushed down the crapper??!!

 

[antarctica24]

^^^^Since you brought up Focals (I had a set of their 6.5 co-axes in the front door of my 4th gen f body, fed by one of those tiny little 'in line' Alpine 45Wx4 amps mounted in the dash, and loved them!);

Is our factory head unit/amp source SO BAD/'filthy' that even with the use of; whatever pass filters, Audio Control LC2i, and even the given advantages of the Focal's higher efficiency, make the cost of the Focals integrated into our factory system (IF they even make anything we could use in our doors currently) money flushed down the crapper??!!

It's nice to talk to another 4th gen fan I really miss mine.

It's not that it's bad, there is just better. Everyone has their on level of tolerance.

While not a personal fan of the focals, I replaced the factory radio with an Alpine head unit while building my system. Leaving the factory speakers intact. Guess what. The factory speakers sound better. So what does that mean? Are the speakers the problem, or is the factory head unit a problem?

Based on jr's comments that the factory speakers while not perfect, they are obviously not bad.

So if that's the case and the head unit is crap, then it wouldn't matter what speakers you put on the factory system. If you spend 1400.00 on a set of focals and hook them up to the crappy head unit then crappy in is crappy out. Right? Not saying the focals are crappy but there only as good as what signal is sent to them.

That begs the question, how do you fix that problem? You bypass all of the tuning from Sony, you bypass the internal amp. You send the signal out to something to flaten it back out, you replace the speakers, re tune it, and enjoy. Orrrrrrrr. You replace the factory system with an aftermarket system like I did.

And there is nothing wrong with my hearing.

 

[M-Sport fan]

I've had Alpine head units in EVERY car I've owned for the last 35 years (except for this one so far).

Do they make a DOUBLE DIN (or whatever size our Sony deal actually is ) unit still with a CD player in it (and not exclusively an MP3/iPod/etc.)??

If I wanted to save weight, coin, and simplify installation/wiring, would that small Alpine in line amp work well with their current head units (as it did with my last one in the LS1 Z28)?

 

[antarctica24]

I've had Alpine head units in EVERY car I've owned for the last 35 years (except for this one so far).

Do they make a DIN (or whatever size our Sony deal actually is ) unit still with a CD player in it (and not exclusively an MP3/iPod/etc.)??

If I wanted to save weight, coin, and simplify installation/wiring, would that small Alpine in line amp work well with their current head units (as it did with my last one in the LS1 Z28)?

I installed the Alpine in mine at great effort. An HD143 CDT. It was a single din with Aux input which will allow me to hook up my tablet with external harddrive, feed the signal out of the tablet back to the radio through a DAC, and out the processor. Being that the signal coming out of the tablet is digital, I could just hook up a hard drive via usb to the alpine, but that would not be a easy to access the 3TB library, using JRiver Media Center.

I had to get the shroud from a regular Fiesta, remove the screen, relocate a box further back, and cut a bracket to make it work. The metra kit that everyone is so fond of trashing, it is what it is. I am not sure I understand the benefit of keeping a factory radio that is not good just because it has a screen. I was able to maintain all of my steering wheel controls and the bluetooth works great with my Motorola Android phone. I posted some pictures on my competition build thread along with progress on the sub box.

Hope that helps.

I do want to say this, There is nothing wrong with using the factory radio is that is your (not you personally), deal.If you like the screen and like the way it sounds, as the guy who started this thread said, sound is a very personal thing. Though 4 tweeters I dont know about. When your hearing goes, high frequency is the first thing to go, so he is using the extra tweeter to compensate, which for him there is nothing wrong with doing. I know better about the factory head unit. It doesn't have any real voltage out, and even if you hook up a LC2i, if you only have 2 volts coming in, and then you raise the gain on the LC2I to 4 volts to maximize the voltage into your amp, you effectively added 2 volts to the signal that wasn't there and hence added distortion. Does it matter? Well that depends on how clean you want your signal and what you are willing to accept to deal with when your listening?

 

[M-Sport fan]

I personally do not care about the screen, Bluetooth, Sync, etc. etc.

In fact, I almost wish these cars did not have a touch screen, if for no other reason than to just save the weight/dash clutter!

But I AM reluctant to butcher up my dash in any way to fit an Alpine HU, as much as I'd want the sound/tonal adjustability benefits, and the ease of familiarity in using it.

My hearing is probably HALF of what jmrtsus's is at this point, so I DO need ALL of the clean mid-highs I can get, and then some.

 

[neeqness]

I agree. While I would love to replace the head unit and put an aftermarket one with new speakers, it seems more trouble than it is worth. Add a low audio budget to that picture and you end up in my position.

Maybe that will change sometime in the future once everything is where I'd like. Then I think I'd probably bypass the head and use new speakers and amps, etc. But for now I'll keep what I have...maybe I'll add/upgrade the sub but I doubt I'll do much more than that anytime soon.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk

 

[WeTheNorth]

What would be a good set of speakers if one just wanted to do that? Ty audiophiles


Sent from my CIA monitored device

 

[jmrtsus]

Jmrtsus,

First, Thank you for writing this up. I think its nice, informative, and I agree with 99% of what you said. Its good for people to get various opinions about what is and is not good audio.

I completely admit that I came at this from a different approach. So many times, people go to attack installing the whole audio thing and are really excited about what the results are. And there is nothing wrong with that, but there is more. You have me at a disadvantage, you have 16 years on me. The very first DSP I ever used was the Techniques DA-1000 back in 86. Again agreeing with 99% of everything you have said here, There are some differences and I dont want to create a ruckus over those differences, but my point from the beginning has been for people to understand there is something better than just replacing speakers. Taking out the inefficient factory speakers and replacing them with a more efficient speaker will make the car sound louder and depending on the speaker it may sound cleaner. But there is a lot of room to go. I get that your getting up there in age like myself, but having listened to over 1000 competition vehicles in my judging career, there are huge differences in the dsp technology today than 50 years ago. HUGE, I have owned and heard cars, that would rival 100,000 2 channel home systems and you dont have to spend 100,000 to get there. I too am a huge fan of analog and own a massive album collection so I get it. But just because I have converted a song from an album to a wav file, 44.1K, What I have given up is very very small. These cars I have judged range from the novice class, which is where I would everyone on this site that has upgraded their sound system to the expert class, which is where most of the manufacture sponsored vehicles compete and where I competed.

http://www.thephysicsmill.com/2013/01/06/sound-vinyl-records-vs-digital-files/

And considering "From the article" we are human, and can only hear so well anyway, with a high enough resolution, a human cannot detect the difference and if your hearing is bad, you certainly cannot detect the difference, especially I am mean no offense by this, if you are saying, "4 tweeters sounds good". Im sure it does to you. Most people would be sitting there with blood running out of their ears. Just as it is "by your own words" telling me why am I telling everyone they need a processor, It sounds like what your saying here is it doesnt make a difference, and I really sorry, but it does on so many levels. I wanted people to know that there is something better to be experienced, and just because you would not be capable of hearing it and enjoying, doesn't make it bad.

Just like buying the Fiesta ST, you were driving a corolla, and you think, man this car is awesome. And if you never drove anything else, you would also think it was the best available. But until you upgraded that turbo, and had to retune the car, because the computer was not tuned to work with the new turbo, installing the new turbo would not make any difference unless you retuned the computer to match the new parts. Everything you said about the factory speakers is true. It cost about $3-5 in quantities to build the factory speakers if that, and the industry as a whole has a 40% markup on its parts so if you take MSRP and divide by 1.4 that is dealer cost on all electronics sold in the US. Then you have their manufacturing cost which varies depending on parts used. So you can do the math and get the picture. But what people fail to take into consideration is not all parts are of the same quality and same cost. So when your starting out, with your factory speaker parts which are on the cent a piece, something like a focal may be $5.00. It is still 500 times more expensive and it is a better quality part.

You can absolutely buy a powered sub, and upgrade the system. And it will sound better than it did. I am not sure I would use an 8", as it is never going to have the extension of an 10" but to each their own. Why would you spend $149.00 on an 8 when you could spend the same money on a 10"? And as for replacing the front speakers, and rear speakers, for about $250.00, you can do that and it will sound better. And if that is all you want to spend, so be it. But if you are one of those people, who might have an interest in something better. There is better to be had and replacing the factory speakers with a powered sub, is one option.

Everyone has different taste, and I am so willing to give you a nod for teaching audio for so long. Its great that you were able to bring that knowledge to so many people. But if you are having a hearing problem and saying that 4 tweeters in the car sounds good, I am not sure how you could give audio advice on what would and would not sound good in someones car, especially if your using the same car.

You and I have differing goals in car audio, and that is fine. I have always changed the audio systems in my cars but never had any inclinations to contest.
I have read most of your posts and without a doubt you are much more experienced and capable with the cars today and the digital systems. Where we differ is in the concept of sound quality. Digital audio is still a long way from audiophile sound but by far the best bet for high quality auto sound. The problem with paying for that quality is the sources of the audio signal. In our car the majority of sound sources being used are not close to high quality audio. If you bluetooth MP3 files for your music, or use a memory card stick with MP3 files a cymbal sounds like sandpaper because all the highs are gone. The average ST driver is not going to spend thousands to have all of the things it would take to get to where you think it should be.

Most people also do not have the skills, tools and experience to do this themselves. They may or may not even be able to install new speakers. So if you are not paying labor it is easy to spend money on equipment. Paying to have it all installed is just not in the budget of many ST drivers, like me they are looking to increase car performance not the sound system.

You talk about "hearing problems" the only "problem" is I have normal hearing for my age. Why you keep claiming I have "bad" hearing is beyond me. BTW, using 4 tweeters is a 3dB increase in sound over two tweeters. Why would you say 4 tweeters would cause bleeding ears? Anyone that works in audio understands dB and human hearing. Basic audiology says that a 3dB sound increase is barely discernable to the human ear, I don't think it will cause anyone any discomfort much less bleeding ears. I stated I liked the 4 tweeters because they got rid of the harsh beaming sound from the factory tweeters and presented a more open sound, I think the factory tweeters are some of the worse I have heard. But with younger ears the four may be too bright and you may have to use the factory EQ to reduce it.

The difference in an 8 or 10 inch sub is one fits under the front seat and within my budget the other does not. Your approach to car audio is always focusing on better sound rather than size, space and costs. The system I was referring to was one in a million combinations available for our cars. It was put together with a stated goal. The majority of us are willing settle for less than the best sound for a better fit to our needs. The reason under seat subs are made is not to provide the best sound but the best sound for its application. My car is a DD, as a matter for fact I just returned home from a 600 mile weekend trip and managed to get my suitcase, computer case, small carry on bag, and many other items all in the trunk with the shelf in place. My previous car had a factory 10" sub in a box that was always in the way of packing the car, I usually had to put a seat down for the same load. People that do want stronger bass and do not mind the space taken have that option and several others to get much better bass than an under seat type. One of the reasons I love my FiST is it is small, so real estate in the car is something I do not want to give up.

My goal and that of many others is to make improvements without giving up the factory appearance, space and within a budget. My budget is $500 for audio in two steps, first will be sub and filters, then new speakers later. Never get the impression I do not respect what you do, we simply differ in the technicalities of audio reproduction and technology that most forum members could care less about. On the other hand I understand the audiology, acoustical properties and the technology to know what you do and what a difficult space a car interior is to work with. I would never want to put in the work required. My car is just not my listening room and I really don't mind that, it is my driving toy. FYI, I did a search for the top 10 Audiophile amps over $10,000 and found 5 tube types class A and AB and the same with solid state A and AB's. Funny thing is there was zero,zip, zilch, nada digitals amps on the list. Wonder why?

 

[antarctica24]

You and I have differing goals in car audio, and that is fine. I have always changed the audio systems in my cars but never had any inclinations to contest.
I have read most of your posts and without a doubt you are much more experienced and capable with the cars today and the digital systems. Where we differ is in the concept of sound quality. Digital audio is still a long way from audiophile sound but by far the best bet for high quality auto sound. The problem with paying for that quality is the sources of the audio signal. In our car the majority of sound sources being used are not close to high quality audio. If you bluetooth MP3 files for your music, or use a memory card stick with MP3 files a cymbal sounds like sandpaper because all the highs are gone. The average ST driver is not going to spend thousands to have all of the things it would take to get to where you think it should be.

Most people also do not have the skills, tools and experience to do this themselves. They may or may not even be able to install new speakers. So if you are not paying labor it is easy to spend money on equipment. Paying to have it all installed is just not in the budget of many ST drivers, like me they are looking to increase car performance not the sound system.

You talk about "hearing problems" the only "problem" is I have normal hearing for my age. Why you keep claiming I have "bad" hearing is beyond me. BTW, using 4 tweeters is a 3dB increase in sound over two tweeters. Why would you say 4 tweeters would cause bleeding ears? Anyone that works in audio understands dB and human hearing. Basic audiology says that a 3dB sound increase is barely discernable to the human ear, I don't think it will cause anyone any discomfort much less bleeding ears. I stated I liked the 4 tweeters because they got rid of the harsh beaming sound from the factory tweeters and presented a more open sound, I think the factory tweeters are some of the worse I have heard. But with younger ears the four may be too bright and you may have to use the factory EQ to reduce it.

The difference in an 8 or 10 inch sub is one fits under the front seat and within my budget the other does not. Your approach to car audio is always focusing on better sound rather than size, space and costs. The system I was referring to was one in a million combinations available for our cars. It was put together with a stated goal. The majority of us are willing settle for less than the best sound for a better fit to our needs. The reason under seat subs are made is not to provide the best sound but the best sound for its application. My car is a DD, as a matter for fact I just returned home from a 600 mile weekend trip and managed to get my suitcase, computer case, small carry on bag, and many other items all in the trunk with the shelf in place. My previous car had a factory 10" sub in a box that was always in the way of packing the car, I usually had to put a seat down for the same load. People that do want stronger bass and do not mind the space taken have that option and several others to get much better bass than an under seat type. One of the reasons I love my FiST is it is small, so real estate in the car is something I do not want to give up.

My goal and that of many others is to make improvements without giving up the factory appearance, space and within a budget. My budget is $500 for audio in two steps, first will be sub and filters, then new speakers later. Never get the impression I do not respect what you do, we simply differ in the technicalities of audio reproduction and technology that most forum members could care less about. On the other hand I understand the audiology, acoustical properties and the technology to know what you do and what a difficult space a car interior is to work with. I would never want to put in the work required. My car is just not my listening room and I really don't mind that, it is my driving toy. FYI, I did a search for the top 10 Audiophile amps over $10,000 and found 5 tube types class A and AB and the same with solid state A and AB's. Funny thing is there was zero,zip, zilch, nada digitals amps on the list. Wonder why?

All good responses deserve good responses right

I think you and are more on the same page than not. For those who are curious, MP3's, and WMA's, and ITunes files compress their music to take up less space. They do this by eliminating the higher frequencies as part of the process among other things. As I had posted in the attached article, when we are talking about a CD that has been converted to WAV, full 16 bit and SACD which has been converted to 24 or 32 bit DSD files, the article clearly indicates that hearing the difference while possible (and I will agree to this), is negligible and the older you get and the more your hearing goes, the more this would be the case (not talking about you in particular).

As for daily driver. I am the king daily driver on the site. 2014 Fiesta ST with 174,947 miles as of today, there would be more but I didn't drive the car here because of the snow since November. Those are real numbers, so I get the need to use the car. You are talking to a guy here who has toted everything you can including a tablesaw from lowes, had to have something to cut the wood for the box . I get not wanting to take up the space and cut up the car, but we have to put this in perspective. The car is worth about $13,000, maybe. If I tried to trade it for an RS, they would give me about $6,500.00. So you see, the car is done from a financial standpoint. I still feel like I am driving some prototype from Ford though, still on the factory clutch and still have not been in for any repairs. It is kind of freaky. Regardless, My wife and are road trip junkies. We take a lot of road trips, so having tunes in the car are a necessity. This will be my very last foray into car audio besides our jeep that I am starting in June or so, but for me this is it. This is the last car I am modifying audio or engine wise. I have done it some many times and done it on such a massive scale the last time I did the audio piece I dropped $100K in the system, competed with it, got it 4 different magazines but the car had a very short life. The engine upgrade thing is stupid. I had everything from a 300hp Northstar in a Fiero to a 800 HP Trans Am, and 1000 HP GTO. I just turned 49. I think I have had enough. I want to finish it and really enjoy it.

So many people just don't get the whole put an album on and listen to two speakers. With all the technology, I do have only two speakers in the home, but I have a pair of subs for the home theater stuff. We watch a lot of movies. I had a set of KEF 104/2's that I sorely miss, and even more so, had a set of A/D/S/ L1590's which I considered the be an excellent buy at $1500.00 and they were already 10 years old when I purchased them, but when I moved, I had to make a choice, and while the ADS speakers played music better than most as I cannot afford a set of Sophia's or WattPuppies, the Klipsch sounded better with the movies, and they are not your AR's, but they suffice. I hope to pick up a set of Klipsch Series 7 version 2 and pair of Krell mono amps before the end of the year, and that will be the end of that.

The sub box I designed takes up no more space than what is below the panel. The panel will be replaced with a sheet of 1/2 plexi as security measure, but I managed to squeeze 2 10", 2 amps, the processor and 15 farad cap all in that space, so I feel pretty good about it. As for the spare, spare me......pun, No really, the low profile tires while can pick up nails and such, I have AAA, and because of the small profile, nails and such create small slow leaks. There are arguments to this I am sure, but considering the miles I have on the car, I trust my judgment on this.

Ill have to take your word on the 4 tweeters, My competition car had 4 tweeters. (2) on each side stacked in the middle between the two midranges. It created a studio monitor effect with the custom dash we built. But the two tweeters were crossed over differently so I could adjust the height of the sound stage. Not 4 tweeters playing the same frequencies. I think that would be brutal. And yes, I know what 3 db of gain is, and to achieve that you have to double your power. So 3DB is a lot.

I didn't want to mess with the electrical system in this car. The factory Alternator is a known factor, and if something goes wrong with it, I can go down to autozone and get one for about $100.00. So I opted for the inverter to ramp up the voltage to make sure I was getting 14.4 volts all the time and 15 farad cap to reinforce the 2 amps.

The Class D amps are not Class A, and not class AB to your statement. I am absolutely an IC guy, and I am not an tube fan. The whole warmth, blah blah blah, like we have both said, music is a personal preference. That is no different than the argument between copper and silver speaker wire. Having used both, I am a fan of copper, though Nordost sponsored my car after my first win and supplied me with Valhalla, silver interconnects and Speakerwire for the whole car. So I have used it. But the amps, There are maybe 2 Class A car amps you can buy, that have the specs of the Alpine PDX-V9, on how quite they are. As for AB, I don't know of any and they are supper efficient. If I were to use 2 class AB amps in this car with the same power I am using, I would need a bigger alternator and a 2nd battery, and I am not doing all of that. That is just dumb. Will their be a difference in the Class D and Class AB? Maybe.

I think its good to always have a 2nd opinion.

 

[antarctica24]

What would be a good set of speakers if one just wanted to do that? Ty audiophiles


Sent from my CIA monitored device

Pick your speakers based on your budget. All of the normal brands like Pioneer, Alpine, Kenwood, JL Audio, Kicker, and some others will all do what you want them to do and you wont have to spend a bunch of money. Go back through the staging thread, and I actually give out some brand model numbers.

 

[antarctica24]

I agree. While I would love to replace the head unit and put an aftermarket one with new speakers, it seems more trouble than it is worth. Add a low audio budget to that picture and you end up in my position.

Maybe that will change sometime in the future once everything is where I'd like. Then I think I'd probably bypass the head and use new speakers and amps, etc. But for now I'll keep what I have...maybe I'll add/upgrade the sub but I doubt I'll do much more than that anytime soon.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk

Having done it, it is a challenge, however, I think it will be worth it in the end. At least at this point, should I decide I want to swap out head units, I can put any single din or single din popup screen in this dash.

 

[neeqness]

Having done it, it is a challenge, however, I think it will be worth it in the end. At least at this point, should I decide I want to swap out head units, I can put any single din or single din popup screen in this dash.

Would it be possible to retain the steering wheel controls?

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk

 

[antarctica24]

Would it be possible to retain the steering wheel controls?

Sent from my LG-H918

I was able to retain mine. I used the PAC steering wheel controls interface. The only thing that changed was the talk button. So instead of having voice commands the talk button circles through the source button for the Alpine like CD, had radio, Pandora, satellite radio, USB, aux in.

 

[jmrtsus]

I am reposting this chart to illustrate why what we hear is so objective. And explain a little about the term we hear often in audio, Decibels. This chart shows the NORMAL hearing range of the male human ear based on age. As you can see at 20 years old you have pretty good hearing across the audio range. By the age of 40 years old hearing of the high frequencies above 8 kHz is 20 dB lower. A -20dB is a drop in hearing to 1/4 of what it was at 20 years old. Or to put it in the opposite direction a 20 year old hears the high frequencies 4 times as loud as a 40 year old.

The term Decibels or dB is a measuring unit that must be referenced to what is being measured, for example in power measurements a 3 dB increase is a doubling of power. A 3 dB increase of an 100 Watt audio amp is 200 watts. When dB is used in relation to human hearing a 3 dB increase in sound is barely discernable to your ears. Because dB is a non linear measurement, the math is a little funky. A doubling of your power amp (+3dB) from 300 to 600 Watts will not double what you hear, it will just be a noticeable increase. A +10dB is needed for yours ears to discern "twice as loud". In a nutshell after the age of 20 for men you lose about 1 dB per year above 8 kHz until age 40 then about 2dB a year thereafter.

What this shows is we all hear differently, this chart is for men, women suffer much lower losses with age. So women hear different from men. My wife can even hear what I am thinking at a rock concert. How can a 40 or 50 year old man judge sounds they can barely hear? I cannot tell you how the highs sound in a speaker until they are adjusted for my ears, once that is done I can then judge the entire frequency range and give an opinion of the overall balance. We as humans can only testify to how something sounds to OUR own ears. If everyone listened to music the same way with the same ears we would not have had various types of tone controls on audio equipment for over a century to compensate. The effect we are talking about can be compensated with the built in EQ. Although the adjustment is highly technical I will attempt to explain. If the music is too bright sounding to you turn the highs down......not bright enough, turn them up. And keep in mind that the source of the music you are playing may also require adjustments to your ears.