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Inexpensive audio upgrade info

jmrtsus

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Inexpensive audio upgrades to your ST car audio

The subject of Audio is something that can get really deep into electronic theory and applications. Do you as a car owner need to understand it all to make some improvements? No. Do you need to spend thousands to make improvements? No.

Let?s start with some major terms in audio, first is analog, which is a change in amplitude or volume and frequency or tone. Our eardrums move just like a speaker, slowly in and out with low tones like bass and quickly with high notes. So in a nutshell sound is created analog and we hear it analog. The analog signal is simply increased in magnitude, called gain or amplification to drive a speaker. The best amplifier has always been the rhetorical ?straight wire with gain?. Meaning nothing in between input and output to alter the sound, impossible to achieve perfectly but we can come very, very close to output equals input in well designed analog amplifiers.

Digital is simply a term to define devices that work with a binary (two state) signal of on and off or 0 and 1. We do this by using analog to digital converters to create the digital representation of the analog signal. From there we can take a stream of data that looks like this 0101101001001??..and manipulate these bits to modify the sound in various ways. After the manipulation the digital data is the converted back to an analog signal for your ears.
What difference does it make to an ST owner? It makes a big difference. First, digital is less expensive to make and power, second it is very efficient and hence small, and third the least expensive to provide a high quality 12V sound system. Analog is power hungry (inefficient), expensive to produce and large and heavy. Digital systems dominate the 12V market as the requirements for a high quality system in a car demands three goals, low cost, small space, and high quality.

Many people new to the electronics field think digital audio is some ultra new high tech wonder, not true. AT&T pioneered it over 50 years ago in the telephone industry. Without the digital infrastructure of the telephone industry the internet could not exist today. Digital systems including fiber optics and lasers were also pioneered and first utilized in the telephone industry long ago. I was fortunate in the electronics industry to enter at the close of tube type equipment and solid state (transistors, also developed by AT&T) started to dominate electronics along with early digital systems. I ushered in the digital age with AT&T and was a pioneer in digital systems years before the consumer audio people even knew what it could do. Digital Signal Processing was used in amateur radio equipment for consumers, as a Ham radio operator that builds my own equipment I used DSP, Digital Signal Processing again years before the consumer audio market understood its capabilities. Digital audio is only relatively new to the 12V auto sound and inexpensive higher power amp markets like cheap A/V systems. The rest of the electronics industry has been working with it for many, many years even though some seem to believe it is brand new, only to them. The single most important reason for digital audio popularity is it finally reached a price point that makes good quality equipment available at very low prices.
Digital has its share of poor sound, see below for some examples of the inherent problem in the signal sources for digital audio. There are many other forms of audio files and systems but this will give you a taste of the problems in digital audio. Good info if you did not know about it.

?Automotive News
Lost in transmission
The growing popularity of compressed digital formats is a sore spot for makers of audio systems, who want to support customer preferences but worry that listeners don't know what they're missing.
And it's a lot. While music from a CD flows at about 1,400 kilobytes per second, songs from Apple's iTunes store usually play at 256 kbps. Streaming Internet radio services such as Pandora compress songs even further, to about 64 kbps.
Chop those files in half, and you get satellite radio. To beam down its tunes, Sirius compresses them to 32 kbps -- about 1/50th the fidelity of a CD."


And if you use MP3 files even worse news awaits you. MP3 compression effectively kills all signals above about 14 KHz even though your amp and speakers will produce highs out to 20 KHz or better. If you use a memory stick or phone for audio on MP3 files in your ST any tuning or upgrades are almost a lost cause due to the loss of the sibilance signals affecting voice tones and percussion instruments. Listening to Joe Bonamassa rip a guitar to shreds sounds ten times better on CD than MP3. Try it, play a track from a CD then the same track on a MP3 file.

Distortion is another term to define; in an amplifier it is signals in the audio stream that are different from the input signal. Noise is one type of distortion along with an alphabet of other possible distortions. The two most common types are harmonic distortion (THD) and intermodulation distortion (IM). These have long been tamed in both analog and digital amps and generally of no concern so no reason to dwell on them here. Digital on the other hand modifies the original signals and adds a whole new layer to the subject of distortion.

One of the objections to digital audio is the quantization errors. Quantization is the process of converting a range of input values like an analog signal into a smaller set of values (numbers) that closely approximates the original signal. That term is not mine but comes from the designers of the analog to digital converters used in digital audio. Why closely approximates? Because the analog to digital converter only takes sample reading of a continuous audio signal, not the entire signal. So the whole analog signal is no longer even present in the digital data, just a sampling that is reassembled into a ?close approximation? of the input in a digital to analog converter to drive an amp. Also the sampling rate will determine the number of samples taken and the more the better. But the analog input will not be 100% sampled.

You also have ?bit depth? to deal with. Bit depth in the number of bits used to quantify or define the input signal. If we use 8 bits to quantify we have 256 combinations to define the signal, if 16 bits are used to quantify the sample the resolution we would have over 65 thousand combinations to define the sample and at 24 bit depth we would be over 16 million combinations. So bit depth is important to sound because the more we can define an analog signal the more accurate it will be. And bit depth can and does change often in a digital chain, if we go to or from 16 to 24 bits we ?dither? the data to make the transition. In other words, even more approximations.

But the real numbers and approximation problems lie in the sampling rate, how often the sample of the signal is taken. The best way to understand sampling rates is a visual example. If we take a photograph of the Mona Lisa and cut it into 100 equal size strips and reassemble it with every other strip missing our eyes will still recognize it as the Mona Lisa but will it be the same? Of course not. Digital systems attempt to fill the spaces with ?approximations?, what an algorithm (formula) tries to guess is placed there. So now we have a Mona Lisa with ? the original information and the other ? mathematical ?approximations.? The picture will be closer to the original but in reality can never be the exact copy with half of the information approximated. Even with this and all the other problems in 12v audio digital it is still the best bet for cars if your budget allows and your heart desires it. By careful reassembly and lots of manipulation of data we can get a very good audio product. But who can't understand the fact that approximations of ? of the signal are never as good as the original no matter what we use for error corrections in digital.

Analog systems still dominate the home audiophile market for one reason. They are the best at reproducing the signal that matches the analog input source because we retain the entire original recording signal not half and approximate the other half. At home we don?t have to concern ourselves with power consumption as we don?t have an alternator or battery. We are not as concerned about equipment size either. My home amp is two 18 watt RMS class AB vacuum tube mono blocks total weight is a little under 30 pounds.
A home audio enthusiast ?tunes? his room to provide as close to a resonance free environment as possible for a good sound. We are also free to have large highly efficient speaker systems so that only 10 watts will easily fill a room with solid sound. And 18 watts will provide 105dB sound levels. Equivalent to a chain saw full bore at 3 feet. Loud, damn loud! Home audiophiles also understand the drawbacks and limitations of digital sources like CD?s. Digital music has been defined as ?strident, harsh, edgy? and many other terms to define its aural properties. That effect is lessened in a noisy environment like a car where the background noise competes with the audio in your ear.
In a car we don?t have the absolute freedom to tune the car interior which is the epitome of a terrible listening environment to start with. We can manipulate the digital data to tune the amplifier and counteract the car resonances. This is much cheaper to do with data than analog circuits in a car. In a home listening room the acoustics do not significantly change, in a car used as a daily driver things like windows or Moon Roof open, package shelf removed, seat positions, temperature, rear seats down or even the load in the hatchback area can alter the resonances and the ?tune?. In auto sound competition the car is judged in one configuration only??.the one it is tuned for. Tuning in a car is not dependant on the type of system, analog or digital ?tuning? is a one configuration is correct and all others are compromises.

So what does one do that has no desire to spend thousands on audio?

Start with this quote?.
"Out of all of the options you can add into a car, premium audio has the largest profit margin for an automaker," says Mark Boyadjis, a senior analyst at IHS Automotive. "There's not always a lot of cost involved in creating a premium audio system."

The speakers are one of the lowest costs in the system in our ST?s. What Sony did is have a woofer and tweeter made or existing ones modified to meet a cost/performance envelope for the contract with Ford. They met their goal and we have a better than stock sounding system. Audiophile was never in the conversation between Ford and Sony. All Ford wanted was a name brand audio system that performed better than stock and with a nice profit margin. Sure Sony ?tuned? the audio to work better with the car's interior but this was to tune out the effects of the car not to make the speakers sound better due to speaker deficiencies. Since the speakers have little to do with the resonances of the interior of the car then as long as the replacement speakers are roughly the same in frequency response the ?tune? will have the same effect on the replacement driver. With the speakers in the door they are not affected like they are operating in a tuned, sealed or ported enclosure. The door panels are acoustically called an infinite baffle meaning they are not tuned to a specific frequency so again any factory tune will have a minimal effect on them. Do not buy the set of four 2000 watt 6 ??drivers for $9.99 from the flea market, audio show or Freight Outlet. Buy a quality product and you will be fine.

Replacing the stock speakers are not some kind of disaster scenario, as the reviews on many quality speakers show customers were satisfied in the high 90 percents. Our 6 ? inch speakers are not much different from the average 6 ? inch quality replacements in frequency response. We can do better with a higher quality speaker, things like a more expensive, stiffer, lighter cone and stronger magnets will increase efficiency and transient response for tighter mid bass and a clearer mid range.

So if you are like the majority and do not want to spend a fortune what do you do?

The answer to that question begs more questions like what do you want to change with your factory system? For example, if you are happy with the sound in general but want more bass then a subwoofer is the simple answer. Read some reviews and decide if you want a box in the hatch area or a hidden sub, get some input from others and go shopping. Changing the door speakers will do little for more bass. If you are not happy with the overall sound then replacement speakers can fill the bill with some limitations depending on staying stock looking or modifying your interior. The only real decisions you must make is whether to utilize the existing door mounted tweeters, adding external mounted tweeters or simply disconnecting the existing tweeters and utilize the tweeters in new coaxial speakers.

My opinion after listening to the combination listed below in a regular Fiesta with the premium sound system like ours was a distinctly positive impression. A friend tried this combo with and without the factory tweeter and preferred not using the factory door tweeters, and after bouncing back and forth from my stock system car to his cleared up some of my issues with the stock system. The placement and low quality of the door tweeters create a harsh sound and beaming effect to my hearing. Utilizing all four tweeters in the replacement speakers made the beaming disappear and provides an open airy feel to the highs, using four tweeters compensated somewhat for the losses with them being located so low in the door. The difference in the midrange is apparent to me in the clearing of what I felt was a muddy sound. With the sub you have a lower extension and stronger physical feel. Is it like a 10? 300 watt sub in a box?..no. But then it is invisible.

If I purchased today (not until after my exhaust) and I had only $500 to spend this is what, why and how I would have it installed. Does this mean this is the best thing for everyone? No, because you may not have the same goals as I do. You may have a higher goal and funds or lower. I am 65 years old and as such I have normal age related high frequency hearing losses. The four tweeters may be too bright sounding for a 30 year old. You also may be happier with simply replacing the front speakers or utilizing the existing door tweeters. Define what you want to do.

What this system will do is give an improved low frequency response that is not going to vibrate your mirrors, higher efficiency, improved midrange and a fairly bright sound that may need adjustment of the factory EQ for some listeners. All for about $500 installed and hundreds less if you can do the installation yourself.

Sub
Crutchfield Sound Ordnance B-8PTD
Why?
125 watts and an 8? aluminum cone driver give solid if not super low bass, located under the driver?s seat actually gives bass you can feel. Add a 3 year warranty, high customer satisfaction and $150 price and it is also a winner. Wiring to the rear speakers allows you to use the fader to adjust the bass level. I had one for years in my previous ride.

Door speakers
Infinity Reference REF-6522EX
Why?
Rubber surround and poly cone for the woofer will work more efficiently and longer than foam surrounds, textile (cloth) dome tweeters for a smooth sound and a very high customer rating along with a high efficiency rating make it a winner. After hearing it I don?t think you can do much better for the price, not that I have auditioned all possible choices. I have been an Infinity speaker fan for many years and never had an issue.

Will these two changes break the bank? $140 for the door speakers online shipped and $150 plus shipping for the subwoofer leaves about $ 200 for wiring/installation for the sub, the doors are an easy DIY for some people. And you can install the sub yourself if you are capable of it. Have more money to spend? Go for component speakers with a tweeter in the ?A? pillars or a rear mounted sub and amp. Have less money? Leave the rear speakers stock and change just the front pair for now.

I did not buy my ST for serious listening, that I do at home. There is not a 12V audio system that will compete with that so I have no desire to try. In my cars I prefer Steppenwolf?s ?Born to be Wild? dimed out with bass thumping my butt and sizzling cymbals assaulting my ears while hard driving a back country mountain road. Touching the sound system in my car is a good reason to stop and open the passenger door for you with two exceptions, my wife and my Autistic grandson who has HIS listening mode.
The thousands of engineers that have spent hundreds of thousands of man hours designing aftermarket drivers and the 10?s of millions of happy customers are not all wrong. You will not be either, try to listen to other systems and ask other ST owners for their suggestions. But please feel free to change your speakers, your life will not end, your car will not self destruct and your ears and wallet will thank you.

Hearing is like your other 4 senses, we all are different and we have our own preferences. If you hate the taste of Brussels sprouts do you think you can be talked into suddenly liking them? If you dislike the feel of wool on your bare skin is it because you never learned to feel it correctly? I know people that think Picasso was a real artist; I guess my eyes were not trained correctly. I don?t. I think the smell of newly mowed grass is great, my wife says it stinks. Your senses are unique to you, let YOUR ears do the listening??.and when the music makes YOU smile you have found what the other tens of millions that replaced their factory speakers have. You don?t have to spend tons of money to get better sound in your car. Just start with the weakest link?..the cheap drivers used in the car.

Please feel free to ask questions about low cost upgrades or share what you have done for the rest of us.

If you want to argue about digital wait until a digital signal has the entire analog signal encoded, is not dithered and the A/D and D/A designers stop having to use the word approximation so they don't get sued. Then get back to me.
 


M-Sport fan

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^^^+1! [thumb]

I would only need to replace the 6.5" speakers since I care not about 'feeling' the bass at all, but ALL of my music is VERY mid-high frequency intensive (voices, pedal/lap steels, mandolins, fiddles, dobros, etc.).

The factory door top mounted tweeters do not sound 'muddied' to me, but DO definitely sound VERY distorted and raspy, even at medium volume listening levels, to my (probably MUCH worse upper mid to high frequency range loss than you currently suffer) 62 year old, destroyed and tinnitus afflicted cilia, at least. [:(]

BTW; I may be the only one on this site who actually LIKES Brussel Sprouts (and always have, even as a young kid). LOL
 


Sam4

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^^^+1! [thumb]

I would only need to replace the 6.5" speakers since I care not about 'feeling' the bass at all, but ALL of my music is VERY mid-high frequency intensive (voices, pedal/lap steels, mandolins, fiddles, dobros, etc.).

The factory door top mounted tweeters do not sound 'muddied' to me, but DO definitely sound VERY distorted and raspy, even at medium volume listening levels, to my (probably MUCH worse upper mid to high frequency range loss than you currently suffer) 62 year old, destroyed and tinnitus afflicted cilia, at least. [:(]

BTW; I may be the only one on this site who actually LIKES Brussel Sprouts (and always have, even as a young kid). LOL
I was afraid Brussel Sprouts was another band I never heard of....
 


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jmrtsus

jmrtsus

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I was afraid Brussel Sprouts was another band I never heard of....
No, but the Electric Prunes are one of my favorite oldies bands. Pull up "I had too much to dream last night"......classic 60's garage rock.
 


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jmrtsus

jmrtsus

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^^^+1! [thumb]

I would only need to replace the 6.5" speakers since I care not about 'feeling' the bass at all, but ALL of my music is VERY mid-high frequency intensive (voices, pedal/lap steels, mandolins, fiddles, dobros, etc.).

The factory door top mounted tweeters do not sound 'muddied' to me, but DO definitely sound VERY distorted and raspy, even at medium volume listening levels, to my (probably MUCH worse upper mid to high frequency range loss than you currently suffer) 62 year old, destroyed and tinnitus afflicted cilia, at least. [:(]

BTW; I may be the only one on this site who actually LIKES Brussel Sprouts (and always have, even as a young kid). LOL
I find the mid range muddy to my ears not the tweeters, the tweeter problem is probably breakup as I drive them very hard. Hence, my like of the 4 tweeters in this upgrade. Much more pleasing to my ears, possible too much for younger ears.....but that is why we have a very basic EQ. I think most ST drivers would be shocked to hear the difference in a simple driver change. But people that have modified their car audio for years know what the quality of the stock drivers are in a car. The aftermarket spends millions every year on development of new drivers to satisfy the massive market that junk the cheap drivers installed in their cars. BTW, Bluegrass?
 


M-Sport fan

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I find the mid range muddy to my ears not the tweeters, the tweeter problem is probably breakup as I drive them very hard. Hence, my like of the 4 tweeters in this upgrade. Much more pleasing to my ears, possible too much for younger ears.....but that is why we have a very basic EQ. I think most ST drivers would be shocked to hear the difference in a simple driver change. But people that have modified their car audio for years know what the quality of the stock drivers are in a car. The aftermarket spends millions every year on development of new drivers to satisfy the massive market that junk the cheap drivers installed in their cars. BTW, Bluegrass?
No need to sell me on the driver/co-axial change from stock, as EVERY car I have owned for the last 30+ years has had at least the speakers changed out from factory, if not a decent amp and crossovers (if using separates). [wink]

And yes, you are probably correct on the high end 'breakup' thing as it is not quite as bad at lower volume levels, and yes, is also at least partially to blame on the 'dirty' factory Sony amp's signal, exacerbated by the shitty drivers/tweeters.

Bluegrass/'Newgrass' is but one type of music I love, most of it is in the Texas singer-songwriter ('Austin type' music, think; Robert Earl Keen, Steve Earle, Townes Van Zant, The Flatlanders, Kelly Willis & Bruce Robison, etc.), modern folk/folk rock, and so called 'Alt-Country' veins.

I've really been stuck lately on a lot of Son Volt's more recent work ("American Central Dust" is ALWAYS in the mix currently), but still count their earlier stuff among my faves of all time (the whole 'Trace' album, especially "Windfall", {which Reckless Kelly did a GREAT cover of last time I saw them live!} and "Tear Stained Eye").
 


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My path was easy as I had unopened gear on a shelf in my garage slated for a past car that worked.

I used the Pioneer TS-D1720C component set. The highs are pretty harsh because the tweeter is
large and crossed over quite low, which seems to couple with the upper range of the mids. The good
news is the mids are incredible for the price. They play down to 70Hz without problems and the mid
bass is very tight. I tried the tweeters in the stock location and it was horrible, in the pillar was better
but, still bad. I could pin point the sound from the tweet and the mid and the glass seemed to make
the harshness more present. I settled on near the driver firing to the dome light. I lost a bit of height
but, gained width, and sq. I also set the x-over to the negative setting.

I'm running a 3 channel amp. It has a class d sub channel and a class A/B front. The rear speakers are
still stock and are faded out to where you can baaarely hear them. They only add ambience really. The fronts
are louder than both factory combined by quite a bit.

The sub channel is going to two 6.5" Tang Band W6-1139SIF sub woofers. Yes, sub woofers :) They are
tuned low in a ported enclosure that fits below the rear cargo tray. Low 30's tuning, I forgot exactly I'd
have to bring up the charts, I changed so much before I settled. I'm guessing 33Hz, the play clean at
their power levels and more than compliment the fronts especially for only being six and a halfs.

Audio input is handled by the Audio Control LC2i.


I sound deadened the front two doors because I had the material and it
worked great but, not totally necessary. (even made the stockers sound better before my
install). It is louder than I need so I have headroom and sounds good enough for my
low quality audio input. I spend tons on headphones and such but, my car is loud and I'm
not going to add a ton of weight to it. This is great for my needs. Considering the
Bluetooth streaming or mp3 direct input most of the time, I have no reason to
make my audio better only to hear the fine nuance of compressed audio more clearly.

I walked away with MUCH better sounding and louder audio than the "premium" option
for a fraction of the cost (even if I didn't have the gear, just made it sweeter).
 


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jmrtsus

jmrtsus

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Very nice info....I was curious about the efficiency of your speakers. Looked it up and they are rated at 88dB. I wanted to see because I believe the current drivers are not very efficient as they are the only source of bass so the cone is stiff and the mids muddy. It takes about a 3 dB increase to the ear to discern a very noticeable increase in volume levels. So that would imply about 85 to 86 dB for the factory drivers. As to tweeters I would love to find a good place for a planar tweeter in the FiST. Not terribly expensive just large for a car.

The Tang Band drivers they have been a leader in high Xmax small reasonably priced drivers for years, love them, they will produce mucho clean bass if placed in a proper enclosure and fed lots of clean power. For those that do not know, Xmax is the measurement of how much a speaker cone can move linearly without being physically overdriven to distortion. The amount of movement determines how much air is moved......and the more air moved the stronger the bass. It is usually stated in millimeters such as xmax= 8 mm (1/3 ") I think two high Xmax 6 1/2" subs tuned to about 40 Hz would make me very happy in my FiST.
 


neeqness

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After installing an under seat sub (primarily because I regularly load my FiST with supplies to the limit and have little room for a larger sub), I placed hipass filters on the mids. I also lowered the lows a little and significantly raised the mids and highs on the equalizer.

This significantly improved the mid range and I noticed that it also cleared nearly all of the muddiness in the highs. I could hear the highs so much clearer which surprised me at first (given the tweets location and the fact that I did nothing directly to them), until I realized that the improvement was due to the combined sound of the midrange speaker and tweeters. With the hipass filters in the fullrange speakers and the lows significantly reduced, I realized that the lows in the fullrange speakers had been muddying up both the highs and the mids in the overall sound.

After some more tweaking with the eq and sub settings, I am very pleased with the overall sound now. It is not mindblowing by any means but everyone who has heard it so far has really been amazed when I tell them that everything is stock and only the sub is aftermarket especially since my sub is really on the weakside because when I bought it I was concerned more about whether it would fit under the seat rather than the sound since many reviewers of other underseat subs had this issue in cars like ours.


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[MENTION=2319]jmrtsus[/MENTION] I see those Infinity speakers don't fit our rear doors...do you feel as though upgrading the rear speakers are negligible while looking at upgrading only speakers on a budget?

If that doesn't quite make sense. Do you think sub $200 rear speakers aren't worth pairing with sub $200 front speakers with NO other changes or additions to the audio system?
 


Woods247

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After installing an under seat sub (primarily because I regularly load my FiST with supplies to the limit and have little room for a larger sub), I placed hipass filters on the mids. I also lowered the lows a little and significantly raised the mids and highs on the equalizer.

This significantly improved the mid range and I noticed that it also cleared nearly all of the muddiness in the highs. I could hear the highs so much clearer which surprised me at first (given the tweets location and the fact that I did nothing directly to them), until I realized that the improvement was due to the combined sound of the midrange speaker and tweeters. With the hipass filters in the fullrange speakers and the lows significantly reduced, I realized that the lows in the fullrange speakers had been muddying up both the highs and the mids in the overall sound.

After some more tweaking with the eq and sub settings, I am very pleased with the overall sound now. It is not mindblowing by any means but everyone who has heard it so far has really been amazed when I tell them that everything is stock and only the sub is aftermarket especially since my sub is really on the weakside because when I bought it I was concerned more about whether it would fit under the seat rather than the sound since many reviewers of other underseat subs had this issue in cars like ours.


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Which sub are you using? Does the seat still have full range?
 


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jmrtsus

jmrtsus

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[MENTION=2319]jmrtsus[/MENTION] I see those Infinity speakers don't fit our rear doors...do you feel as though upgrading the rear speakers are negligible while looking at upgrading only speakers on a budget?

If that doesn't quite make sense. Do you think sub $200 rear speakers aren't worth pairing with sub $200 front speakers with NO other changes or additions to the audio system?
I see Crutchfield has the brackets for $13, Metra-82-3412 it looks like, you need both F&R so shop them. As to replacing the rear speakers I would for me to get the additional tweeters. If you have younger hearing the front alone may be be fine for you. F&R levels will need to be balanced with the fader. If your budget can support doing both it would be worth it for the improvement in efficiency, if not doing the front will still give a better sound than the stock speakers. You can do the rears later if you think you need it. You may be perfectly happy with just the fronts. Let your ears test drive them. Not a lot of money involved.
 


neeqness

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Which sub are you using? Does the seat still have full range?
Kenwood KSC-SW11 Compact Powered Enclosed Subwoofer for CAR https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BO8O9XQ/ref=cm_sw_r_other_apa_z4uazbS01BCPX

In hindsight I probably could have found a more powerful sub near this price range. But this one had good reviews and fits well under the front passenger seat and with plenty of room to spare. Even with the front seat entirely forward you can barely see the speaker from the rear.

After a few adjustments to the sound it fills out the oem sound well. It is powered and has a remote with volume dial, frequency dial and a polarity switch so if you hear muddiness you can switch polarity to correct it without having to switch the wires.

Now to fairly warn you...you will not hear any bass thumping outside the vehicle even with the windows down and/or the doors open, but once you are seated inside it sounds nice and full and balances the other speakers nicely. I DID need to tweak the sound and play with the adjustments and the equalizer to get it balanced how I like it though. But I'm also pickier than most. Some might be happy with just the volume and the polarity set correctly. My remote is velcroed (industrial grade) under the driver seat so it is easy to adjust whenever I feel the need but I don't adjust it any more. Can probably lose it or throw it away and not be bothered one bit now...

I think that maybe you were also asking if my seat can still be moved fully? If so, the answer is yes. I have no problems moving the seat and it does not even get close to hitting anything at all. There is plenty of room around the sub.

If you do install a sub (regardless which one you choose) and plan to use the stock speakers, I would highly recommend installing highpass filters on the fullrange speakers (front & back). With the sub now dedicated to playing the lowest frequencies, you don't really need the fullrange speakers to play them anymore so by removing the low frequencies (mostly) from the full range it allows the speakers to play the mids and high range frequencies much more clearly. I was and still am amazed at the difference...besides the filters are dirt cheap!


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jmrtsus

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Ooltewah
Thread Starter #18
After installing an under seat sub (primarily because I regularly load my FiST with supplies to the limit and have little room for a larger sub), I placed hipass filters on the mids. I also lowered the lows a little and significantly raised the mids and highs on the equalizer.

This significantly improved the mid range and I noticed that it also cleared nearly all of the muddiness in the highs. I could hear the highs so much clearer which surprised me at first (given the tweets location and the fact that I did nothing directly to them), until I realized that the improvement was due to the combined sound of the midrange speaker and tweeters. With the hipass filters in the fullrange speakers and the lows significantly reduced, I realized that the lows in the fullrange speakers had been muddying up both the highs and the mids in the overall sound.

After some more tweaking with the eq and sub settings, I am very pleased with the overall sound now. It is not mindblowing by any means but everyone who has heard it so far has really been amazed when I tell them that everything is stock and only the sub is aftermarket especially since my sub is really on the weakside because when I bought it I was concerned more about whether it would fit under the seat rather than the sound since many reviewers of other underseat subs had this issue in cars like ours.


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When you take the bass load from the stock drivers with the High Pass Filters I think you stop cone break-up on the stock drivers which muddies the mids. By reducing the load on the stock amp the signal is less distorted overall. As you saw, people can hear even low cost improvements. The biggest design flaw in the Sony system is that it was not a three way speaker system. The woofer/mid in a small driver seems to be a difficult job for the 6 1/2" speaker cone. My home speakers are mid '60's Altec Lansing 2-way with upgraded tweeters and crossover. But the woofer/mid is a 10" with a 10" "drone" (passive radiator), because the woofer cone excursion is effectively doubled by the drone the large stiff but light cone and dustcap combine for a very balanced mid, strong bass and high efficiency. The tweeter was upgraded from the common 2 1/2" cone to a 1" silk dome. I don't know what the physics involved are but only very expensive smaller speakers seem to not have a muddy mid to me. The mysteries of audio..... Glad to see you happier with the system.
 


neeqness

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#19
When you take the bass load from the stock drivers with the High Pass Filters I think you stop cone break-up on the stock drivers which muddies the mids. By reducing the load on the stock amp the signal is less distorted overall. As you saw, people can hear even low cost improvements. The biggest design flaw in the Sony system is that it was not a three way speaker system. The woofer/mid in a small driver seems to be a difficult job for the 6 1/2" speaker cone. My home speakers are mid '60's Altec Lansing 2-way with upgraded tweeters and crossover. But the woofer/mid is a 10" with a 10" "drone" (passive radiator), because the woofer cone excursion is effectively doubled by the drone the large stiff but light cone and dustcap combine for a very balanced mid, strong bass and high efficiency. The tweeter was upgraded from the common 2 1/2" cone to a 1" silk dome. I don't know what the physics involved are but only very expensive smaller speakers seem to not have a muddy mid to me. The mysteries of audio..... Glad to see you happier with the system.
Don't get me wrong though, I appreciate good quality sound just as much as any audiophile, but for me in this car it is not as high of a priority and my budget for mods is limited. Things like wheels, brakes, tires, etc. are where that money ends up going instead. But if my budget were larger, I'd definitely consider upgrading the speakers as well.

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#20
When you take the bass load from the stock drivers with the High Pass Filters I think you stop cone break-up on the stock drivers which muddies the mids. By reducing the load on the stock amp the signal is less distorted overall. As you saw, people can hear even low cost improvements. The biggest design flaw in the Sony system is that it was not a three way speaker system. The woofer/mid in a small driver seems to be a difficult job for the 6 1/2" speaker cone. My home speakers are mid '60's Altec Lansing 2-way with upgraded tweeters and crossover. But the woofer/mid is a 10" with a 10" "drone" (passive radiator), because the woofer cone excursion is effectively doubled by the drone the large stiff but light cone and dustcap combine for a very balanced mid, strong bass and high efficiency. The tweeter was upgraded from the common 2 1/2" cone to a 1" silk dome. I don't know what the physics involved are but only very expensive smaller speakers seem to not have a muddy mid to me. The mysteries of audio..... Glad to see you happier with the system.
I know little-to-nothing about audio. But the above said, doesn't that imply that quality 3-way speaker replacements may be key here?
 




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