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  1. #251
    Member 117 Rep Points Brura22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.PowPow View Post
    @Tune+ I'm sill confused about our fuel problem that causes us to need to run Aux Fuel. If the in tank pump is capable of supporting 8 injectors why can't it support 4 larger injectors? And what is stopping us from just using a different pump to run larger injectors? I'm not very educated in this matter and my friend keeps asking me why Aux Fuel and Meth are our only options instead of just getting bigger injectors.

    Also are you still on track to finalize production of the Aux Fuel next month?
    Are you aware of how DI works? We max out our HPFP, the LPFP still has some breath in it


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  2. #252
    Senior Member 536 Rep Points M-Sport fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brura22 View Post
    Are you aware of how DI works? We max out our HPFP, the LPFP still has some breath in it
    Our in tank, LPFP has enough capacity/force to supply BOTH our HPFP AND a branched off of the main low pressure supply line, auxiliary 4 injector port system at the same time, with no lean conditions to either (and no in line 'booster pump')?
    Magnetic 2016 Fiesta ST base model

  3. #253
    Member 117 Rep Points Brura22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Sport fan View Post
    Our in tank, LPFP has enough capacity/force to supply BOTH our HPFP AND a branched off of the main low pressure supply line, auxiliary 4 injector port system at the same time, with no lean conditions to either (and no in line 'booster pump')?
    Yessss.... you realize Strat has had an aux fuel kit out for years?
    And many run it..

    You assume that 4 injectors require more fuel/pressure than one injector like the current aux kits??

    Did you research or ask the size of said injectors in this port kit?

    Let's say the current Stratified Aux kit is utilizing a single 1000cc injector on the throttle body.
    If this 4 port injection kit uses FOUR 250cc injectors, what's the problem?
    This is all just a theory, but I don't think the intention of this port injection fuel kit was to put out MORE fuel than the Stratified Kit, I think it's just meant to do it safer via the following-

    One of the main reasons of a port injection kit over a single nozzle throttle body injection is pretty common across all platforms (NOS, Meth, or Aux Fueling)
    Port injection evenly injects your fuel into each cylinder, where as TB injection favors the inside cylinders and leans out a hair on the outside cylinder.
    A port kit lets you tune more aggressively in each cylinder and thus more power...
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  4. #254
    Senior Member 536 Rep Points M-Sport fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brura22 View Post
    Yessss.... you realize Strat has had an aux fuel kit out for years?
    And many run it..

    You assume that 4 injectors require more fuel/pressure than one injector like the current aux kits??

    Did you research or ask the size of said injectors in this port kit?

    Let's say the current Stratified Aux kit is utilizing a single 1000cc injector on the throttle body.
    If this 4 port injection kit uses FOUR 250cc injectors, what's the problem?
    This is all just a theory, but I don't think the intention of this port injection fuel kit was to put out MORE fuel than the Stratified Kit, I think it's just meant to do it safer via the following-

    One of the main reasons of a port injection kit over a single nozzle throttle body injection is pretty common across all platforms (NOS, Meth, or Aux Fueling)
    Port injection evenly injects your fuel into each cylinder, where as TB injection favors the inside cylinders and leans out a hair on the outside cylinder.
    A port kit lets you tune more aggressively in each cylinder and thus more power...
    Thank you for answering without getting snide/belittling.

    But yes, I know/understand the benefits of a 4 port injector setup over a single large TB injector system, and if I ever had to go aux fuel, I would ONLY do a 4 injector port system, regardless of how much more it could cost over a single TB injector system.

    I guess my question should have been, has anyone ever had fuel starvation problems even with the single injector Stratified system, combined with the demands of the maxed out HPFP/injectors, when tuning a HIGH power/fuel demand setup, which was caused by the factory in tank pump not being able to 'keep up' with supplying both?
    Magnetic 2016 Fiesta ST base model

  5. #255
    Member 117 Rep Points Brura22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Sport fan View Post
    Thank you for answering without getting snide/belittling.

    But yes, I know/understand the benefits of a 4 port injector setup over a single large TB injector system, and if I ever had to go aux fuel, I would ONLY do a 4 injector port system, regardless of how much more it could cost over a single TB injector system.

    I guess my question should have been, has anyone ever had fuel starvation problems even with the single injector Stratified system, combined with the demands of the maxed out HPFP/injectors, when tuning a HIGH power/fuel demand setup, which was caused by the factory in tank pump not being able to 'keep up' with both?
    DHM made over 400 to the wheel on the Stratified kit so I'd say no.



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  6. #256
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    Exactly. I'd speculate that based on the success of the Stratified setup and what Adam is saying, that the fuel pump has enough to power both. It's extremely expensive, not to mention specialized in application, to upgrade the DI injectors. Plus, the future of fuel injection, judging from what Ford and many other manufacturers are doing is direct AND port injection. The next Fiesta ST will have it (as a 1.5L 3-cyl), as well as the improved Coyote V-8. The RWD version 3.5 Ecoboost from 2016-on is also already direct/port injection. Doing both retains the relatively high-compression ratios necessary for eliminating lag, increased fuel-efficiency of DI while keeping the valve-cleaning properties and high RPM performance benefits of port injection. I'd like the aux-fuel solution Adam is cooking up simply for the smoother fuel curve and elimination of engine-coking. To date I don't think anyone has made a mass produced tool for walnut blasting the 1.6L.

    My wife's Flex Ecoboost idles like crap now that it's got almost 100K miles on it. I'm sure it could use a walnut blast. To avoid the same fate on a modified Fiesta ST will be a great thing, as well as likely make the engine last longer. I've only owned mine since November 2015 and I'm already close to 30K miles due to my 30 mile drive to and from work everyday.
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  7. #257
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    What type of price are we looking at?
    Turbo
    install
    and tune..

    Id be willing to come from NY if the price is right. :) thanks!

  8. #258
    Member 224 Rep Points LilPartyBox's Avatar
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    To this talk of additional fuel...I'm surprised no one has mentioned injector duty cycle. When guys are "running out" of fuel during the tuning process, are we talking 100% duty cycle? If so, then adding port injection to share the load makes sense in light of the lack of bigger injectors for our platform. I don't know our current IDC, but assuming there is headroom maybe we should be talking fuel pump replacements/upgrades like the Mazdaspeed and VW guys do to squeeze more fuel out of the injectors for a given pulse width, again, assuming the injectors themselves can handle the increased flow and that the additional pressure doesn't harm anything.

    I just checked Cobb's site and they have added IDC to Max Tq Src or Injection mode. It's hard to tell by the way Cobb listed it but i'll dig around my AP tonight and see if i can't display it in real time.
    https://cobbtuning.atlassian.net/wik...onitor+Support
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  9. #259
    Vendor Premier Vendor 295 Rep Points Tune+'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.PowPow View Post
    @Tune+ I'm sill confused about our fuel problem that causes us to need to run Aux Fuel. If the in tank pump is capable of supporting 8 injectors why can't it support 4 larger injectors? And what is stopping us from just using a different pump to run larger injectors? I'm not very educated in this matter and my friend keeps asking me why Aux Fuel and Meth are our only options instead of just getting bigger injectors.

    Also are you still on track to finalize production of the Aux Fuel next month?
    As was covered (sorry late to the party), the factory injectors aren't the problem it is the HPFP (high pressure fuel pump) that is the problem. It can't flow enough fuel to support the injectors request. So then it goes lean. That is why AUX injection is added, you let the stock system fuel as much as it can comfortably and let the port/aux injection do all the work.

    Quote Originally Posted by lytheum View Post
    Not as easy with direct injection. No one makes higher flowing injectors.
    They do, but the HPFP is the issue, not the injectors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brura22 View Post
    Are you aware of how DI works? We max out our HPFP, the LPFP still has some breath in it


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    Confirmed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brura22 View Post
    Yessss.... you realize Strat has had an aux fuel kit out for years?
    And many run it..

    You assume that 4 injectors require more fuel/pressure than one injector like the current aux kits??

    Did you research or ask the size of said injectors in this port kit?

    Let's say the current Stratified Aux kit is utilizing a single 1000cc injector on the throttle body.
    If this 4 port injection kit uses FOUR 250cc injectors, what's the problem?
    This is all just a theory, but I don't think the intention of this port injection fuel kit was to put out MORE fuel than the Stratified Kit, I think it's just meant to do it safer via the following-

    One of the main reasons of a port injection kit over a single nozzle throttle body injection is pretty common across all platforms (NOS, Meth, or Aux Fueling)
    Port injection evenly injects your fuel into each cylinder, where as TB injection favors the inside cylinders and leans out a hair on the outside cylinder.
    A port kit lets you tune more aggressively in each cylinder and thus more power...
    The intention of our kit is to avoid relying on a single injector to get fuel down each of the runners evenly and not cause any lean cylinders. As many found out the stock intake manifold likes to explode when you send a trail of fuel at the throttle body unevenly down the runners. I would never use a single injector port injection kit to supply more fuel than 350hp and anything higher than E30. The higher the ethanol content the more fuel you need to request from the port injection system, and the more fuel you have flying through an intake manifold that is designed to flow "DRY" and not flow "WET". Additionally it is not designed for a port injection engine at all, that is why you want the injection point to be as close to the cylinder head as possible. In our case the injector is in the actual runner via extended tip.

    Quote Originally Posted by M-Sport fan View Post
    Thank you for answering without getting snide/belittling.

    But yes, I know/understand the benefits of a 4 port injector setup over a single large TB injector system, and if I ever had to go aux fuel, I would ONLY do a 4 injector port system, regardless of how much more it could cost over a single TB injector system.

    I guess my question should have been, has anyone ever had fuel starvation problems even with the single injector Stratified system, combined with the demands of the maxed out HPFP/injectors, when tuning a HIGH power/fuel demand setup, which was caused by the factory in tank pump not being able to 'keep up' with supplying both?
    Never a fuel starvation issue really, more or less it was the issues I have pointed out just above your quote.

    Quote Originally Posted by KP39FiestaST View Post
    What type of price are we looking at?
    Turbo
    install
    and tune..

    Id be willing to come from NY if the price is right. :) thanks!
    You want to drive 20+ hours from NY to TX to get a turbo install done? I can just have you drive over to my good friend's shop in CT to have it installed and we can remote tune it on his dyno.

    Quote Originally Posted by LilPartyBox View Post
    To this talk of additional fuel...I'm surprised no one has mentioned injector duty cycle. When guys are "running out" of fuel during the tuning process, are we talking 100% duty cycle? If so, then adding port injection to share the load makes sense in light of the lack of bigger injectors for our platform. I don't know our current IDC, but assuming there is headroom maybe we should be talking fuel pump replacements/upgrades like the Mazdaspeed and VW guys do to squeeze more fuel out of the injectors for a given pulse width, again, assuming the injectors themselves can handle the increased flow and that the additional pressure doesn't harm anything.

    I just checked Cobb's site and they have added IDC to Max Tq Src or Injection mode. It's hard to tell by the way Cobb listed it but i'll dig around my AP tonight and see if i can't display it in real time.
    https://cobbtuning.atlassian.net/wik...onitor+Support

    As I outlined above it is the HPFP that cannot supply enough fuel for the injectors demand. Because there is no actual way to actually know the DI- IDC in realtime, you will really never know what the injectors will be able to flow. If the FRP_PSI_ERR is heavily positive then you can deduct that the HPFP can't keep up with the FRP_DES. Injection Mode is only going to tell you what injection stage it is at (Cold Start, CSER, Split_INJ) and the Max_Trq_SRC is only going to give you a source for current torque limitation (if any (≠0)). One of them is listed as Maximum Injector Duty Cycle which the chances of it actually giving you that as a TQ_SRC is very little as it will hit other torque limits before that one. And if all other limitations are removed you are making enough power to need port injection anyways so it will never be a factor.
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    985 E HWY 121 | LEWISVILLE, TX 75057
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    info@adamtuned.com

  10. #260
    Member 21 Rep Points Schoolz's Avatar
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    What is the name of your buddies shop in CT? I am located in North eastern CT.


 
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