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Beautiful 4 Point Roll Cage

Messages
101
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33
Location
San Diego
#1
Bit the bullet on a 4 point roll cage from autopower purchased through Geoff at Fury Motorsports. Couldn't be more happy with the purchase. I chose gunmetal. It matched the gray Recaro seat perfectly. I chose a matte finish. Needless to say I love it. Install was not too bad. Peter and I removed the front and rear seats to make install easiser. My suggestion it to get bar into the car and attach the harness bar before drilling the bottom. Would have cut down install by an hour haha. (We had to finaggle the harness bar and drill out the holes a lil to get the bar into place. ) other than that, with the cage installed, the car seems more solid in the rear. I like the rigidity. Total the cage weighs about 75 pounds but I removed the rear seats so give or take 25lbs heavier. I plan of racing at Willow Springs, Big Willow and Chuckwala at the end of the year. Hope you all enjoy. Who else has a cage on here?

Pictured here:

https://m.facebook.com/groups/1483869495199734?view=permalink&id=1844116915841655&fs=2
 


Pete

Active member
Messages
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Location
San Diego
#4
Bit the bullet on a 4 point roll cage from autopower purchased through Geoff at Fury Motorsports. Couldn't be more happy with the purchase. I chose gunmetal. It matched the gray Recaro seat perfectly. I chose a matte finish. Needless to say I love it. Install was not too bad. Peter and I removed the front and rear seats to make install easiser. My suggestion it to get bar into the car and attach the harness bar before drilling the bottom. Would have cut down install by an hour haha. (We had to finaggle the harness bar and drill out the holes a lil to get the bar into place. ) other than that, with the cage installed, the car seems more solid in the rear. I like the rigidity. Total the cage weighs about 75 pounds but I removed the rear seats so give or take 25lbs heavier. I plan of racing at Willow Springs, Big Willow and Chuckwala at the end of the year. Hope you all enjoy. Who else has a cage on here?

Pictured here:

https://m.facebook.com/groups/1483869495199734?view=permalink&id=1844116915841655&fs=2
Here are the pics for everyone. A lot of banged heads later but the install came out great!





 


M-Sport fan

9000 Post Club
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#5
That's a beefy looking roll bar! [thumb]

If I went that far though, I would have to also go for a set of at least fiberglass shell, FIA approved, racing seats, and a sweet set of Schroth Profi 3 harnesses, but then I have the base seats in the car right now.

I also understand that you may want to keep some daily driver comfort/utility (getting in and out of the seat a lot every day), and that you paid a big premium for those Recaros, so I don't blame you for wanting to keep them. ;)
 


Messages
89
Likes
7
Location
Los Angeles
#6
Here are the pics for everyone. A lot of banged heads later but the install came out great!





This is awesome!! I'm in the market for a nice half cage.

Are you able to still use the rear passenger seats if you wanted? I would still like to have rear passenger functionality in the end.

- JR


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 


RAAMaudio

5000 Post Club
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Location
Carson City
#7
JUST to be clear, that is a ROLL BAR, not a roll cage, HUGE DIFFERENCE;)

And, Autopower has a tendency to build roll bars that bolt to nothing but sheet metal meaning they can be practically worthless in a hard crash.

How do I know? I sent a car to them to do the prototype roll bar design for the Scion TC back in 05 then got the first production one and went to install it, when I realized it was adding barely any saftey and likely very dangerous, more weight and bling than anything I stopped and took the car to a real race shop and had a custom street/race cage started I later finished and it past full racing inspection for NASA road racing and it was far different in how it mounted.

If you wish please post pictures of where it is mounted, inside and outside the car, I have since then built my one cages and engineered the sheat out of them to be sure they did all they were supposed to do, I will gladly look them over and post what I can about how effective and safe it likely is.

Sorry to be the bearer of possibly bad news, maybe I am wrong in this case but I take safety damn seriously, as we all should, you might be safer without it and if so then faster as well.

Rick
 


RAAMaudio

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Carson City
#8
My car does not have a cage or roll bar simply because I had to give up to much room and safety for our two big dogs that sit in the deleted back seat area, in harnesses, when we take the with us. The car itself is damn strong as well proven in serious crashes and should be, small, round shape, high strength steel in much of the chassis, roll over protection according to fed standards...and I was willing to accept the fact if I went off at very high speeds I might not walk away. I would never put a band aid in my cars and this might be one.

One thing often overlooked in modding cars is real improvements over style, looks, attention getting, etc.....if it does not make the car faster then a waste of money and real performance, if it does not actually make it safer, loss of performance and sometimes loss of real safety.

I am being frank and honest because I care about the truth in all this, not some marketing hype, etc.....

Again, I hope this is really a good product but not that convinced it is:(
 


jeffreylyon

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#9
I'd like a harness bar but I'd be concerned about using a roll bar in a street car. Roll bars and cages work great in race cars where helmets are mandatory. In a street car I'd be really concerned about those bars around unprotected skulls and elbows, especially if you unbolt the diagonal brace and harness bar to put someone in the back seat.
 


RAAMaudio

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Carson City
#10
Unfortunately a harness bar is not a good idea in most cases, the seats are designed to break backwards in a hard rear end hit and a harness bar is very dangerous if that happens.

Also if you put in actual race seats, meaning fixed back, harnesses, etc and not roll hoop then in a roll over the chances of serious or deadly neck and spine injuries and a big problem thus they are not allowed in many track event situations and rightly so.

I have researched these issues about as far as one could go and added up the true cost in safety, performance gain or loss, real use of the car.....and rebuilt or built real race cages but of course I do not know it all but most of it at least, I think:)

----------

I got into this due to the Scion TC Autopower "roll bar" issue which I dumped, took the car to a shop that claimed to build race roll cages, had to take the car back and cut it out as it was so bad, took it to shop that only did race roll cages and it was still not right so I fixed it myself and done all my own work since which passed inspections the first time. I did not want to get into this sort of work but it had to be right, far to many shops do sheat work and charge a fortune for it....but there are some great ones as well. I guess I will mention that during this time I bought a C5 race car from a regional NASA owner meaning he ran NASA racing in the area. I could not fit in the car right so pulled things out and found incomplete welds, improper gussets, many many issues what were not right and it was raced in SCCA and NASA a serious crash could of been fatal it was so bad, I cut it out and built a real cage for that car as well.
 


Messages
89
Likes
7
Location
Los Angeles
#11
Unfortunately a harness bar is not a good idea in most cases, the seats are designed to break backwards in a hard rear end hit and a harness bar is very dangerous if that happens.

Also if you put in actual race seats, meaning fixed back, harnesses, etc and not roll hoop then in a roll over the chances of serious or deadly neck and spine injuries and a big problem thus they are not allowed in many track event situations and rightly so.

I have researched these issues about as far as one could go and added up the true cost in safety, performance gain or loss, real use of the car.....and rebuilt or built real race cages but of course I do not know it all but most of it at least, I think:)

----------

I got into this due to the Scion TC Autopower "roll bar" issue which I dumped, took the car to a shop that claimed to build race roll cages, had to take the car back and cut it out as it was so bad, took it to shop that only did race roll cages and it was still not right so I fixed it myself and done all my own work since which passed inspections the first time. I did not want to get into this sort of work but it had to be right, far to many shops do sheat work and charge a fortune for it....but there are some great ones as well. I guess I will mention that during this time I bought a C5 race car from a regional NASA owner meaning he ran NASA racing in the area. I could not fit in the car right so pulled things out and found incomplete welds, improper gussets, many many issues what were not right and it was raced in SCCA and NASA a serious crash could of been fatal it was so bad, I cut it out and built a real cage for that car as well.
Thanks for the detailed info. It bums me out, but I also don't want to die. I have a buddy who has a half cage welded to his S2000. No bolts, only welds. It was a pricey job, but there's no price on safety.

- JR


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 


M-Sport fan

9000 Post Club
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#12
JUST to be clear, that is a ROLL BAR, not a roll cage, HUGE DIFFERENCE;)

And, Autopower has a tendency to build roll bars that bolt to nothing but sheet metal meaning they can be practically worthless in a hard crash.

How do I know? I sent a car to them to do the prototype roll bar design for the Scion TC back in 05 then got the first production one and went to install it, when I realized it was adding barely any safety and likely very dangerous, more weight and bling than anything I stopped and took the car to a real race shop and had a custom street/race cage started I later finished and it passed full racing inspection for NASA road racing and it was far different in how it mounted.

If you wish please post pictures of where it is mounted, inside and outside the car, I have since then built my one cages and engineered the sheat out of them to be sure they did all they were supposed to do, I will gladly look them over and post what I can about how effective and safe it likely is.

Sorry to be the bearer of possibly bad news, maybe I am wrong in this case but I take safety damn seriously, as we all should, you might be safer without it and if so then faster as well.

Rick
I'm glad you said this and not me, but yeah, I agree 250%! [thumb]

When I called that bar "beefy", I was referring to the tubing diameter, not necessarily the mounting method, which we cannot see in those pics.
IF it was mounted with LARGE, welded-in, steel reinforcement plates on the top (interior) AND bottom sides (under uni-body), it may not be too bad. (But even the very strongest bolts have been proven to shear in a high enough g shunt. [:(])

But yes, NOTHING is going to even come close to a fully triangulated, and gusseted, custom built cage, which goes well beyond any sanctioning body's specs/rules, IF one is installing it for it's main purpose (and cares about their chances of walking away from a major 'mishap'), and not just a mounting point for harnesses. [wink]
 


M-Sport fan

9000 Post Club
Messages
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Location
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#13
Unfortunately a harness bar is not a good idea in most cases, the seats are designed to break backwards in a hard rear end hit and a harness bar is very dangerous if that happens.

Also if you put in actual race seats, meaning fixed back, harnesses, etc and not roll hoop then in a roll over the chances of serious or deadly neck and spine injuries and a big problem thus they are not allowed in many track event situations and rightly so.

I have researched these issues about as far as one could go and added up the true cost in safety, performance gain or loss, real use of the car.....and rebuilt or built real race cages but of course I do not know it all but most of it at least, I think:)

----------

I got into this due to the Scion TC Autopower "roll bar" issue which I dumped, took the car to a shop that claimed to build race roll cages, had to take the car back and cut it out as it was so bad, took it to shop that only did race roll cages and it was still not right so I fixed it myself and done all my own work since which passed inspections the first time. I did not want to get into this sort of work but it had to be right, far to many shops do sheat work and charge a fortune for it....but there are some great ones as well. I guess I will mention that during this time I bought a C5 race car from a regional NASA owner meaning he ran NASA racing in the area. I could not fit in the car right so pulled things out and found incomplete welds, improper gussets, many many issues what were not right and it was raced in SCCA and NASA a serious crash could of been fatal it was so bad, I cut it out and built a real cage for that car as well.
It kind of leaves us in an 'ALL or nothing', single purpose car type of dilemma, since (at least in MOST states, I'm guessing) a full-on, proper cage is illegal on the street, let alone a full harness (except for maybe that one Schroth model with the push button camlock release).
Also, as Jeff has stated, it is dangerous (even with substantial padding) without constantly wearing a helmet, which NO ONE (except for maybe a young Steve Saleen LOL-look it up in his bio) is going to do while street driving, even if the LEOs did not bother you for doing so.
 


jeffreylyon

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#14
Unfortunately a harness bar is not a good idea in most cases, the seats are designed to break backwards in a hard rear end hit and a harness bar is very dangerous if that happens.

Also if you put in actual race seats, meaning fixed back, harnesses, etc and not roll hoop then in a roll over the chances of serious or deadly neck and spine injuries and a big problem thus they are not allowed in many track event situations and rightly so.
So I guess the options are a Schroth harness with stock seats or a roll bar with a harness bar, 5/6 point harness, and fixed buckets.

OP - can you share some photograph of the mounting points, especially the bottom of the car where the hoop is bolted through? A large enough bottom plate and grade 8/10.9 bolts can compare favorably to a simple weld-in cage. The weld-in frames offered by most pre-fab manufacturers don't do much better than a well designed bolt-ins without some re-engineering.
 


Messages
55
Likes
16
Location
Long Island
#17
It kind of leaves us in an 'ALL or nothing', single purpose car type of dilemma, since (at least in MOST states, I'm guessing) a full-on, proper cage is illegal on the street, let alone a full harness (except for maybe that one Schroth model with the push button camlock release).
Also, as Jeff has stated, it is dangerous (even with substantial padding) without constantly wearing a helmet, which NO ONE (except for maybe a young Steve Saleen LOL-look it up in his bio) is going to do while street driving, even if the LEOs did not bother you for doing so.
So I guess the options are a Schroth harness with stock seats or a roll bar with a harness bar, 5/6 point harness, and fixed buckets.

OP - can you share some photograph of the mounting points, especially the bottom of the car where the hoop is bolted through? A large enough bottom plate and grade 8/10.9 bolts can compare favorably to a simple weld-in cage. The weld-in frames offered by most pre-fab manufacturers don't do much better than a well designed bolt-ins without some re-engineering.
As far as I remember, as long as the harness has a DOT approved, orange or red colored release which EMT workers can identify in the event of an accident, it's allowable on a street car. That leaves very (VERY) few harnesses which are street legal, a majority of which are four points. And four points are terrible, no crotch strap means you get the same submarining as if you were using the stock three point. Maybe it makes people feel like they're going faster? I don't know...
 


M-Sport fan

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#18
^^^Schroth does make a 5/6 point harness with an (identified for said EMS/first responders) center, ALL buckle release at once, push button release, as opposed to the usual, full race, pointer/lever type camlock release (which must be turned to release each individual belt), which in theory at least should be 'street legal' everywhere.
Whether or not this also meets the current FIA/SFI standards, I am not sure. [dunno]

Also, the Schroth 'street/autocross' 4 points with a regular old factory seat belt type buckle on it supposedly prevents the 'submarining' effect you describe above, due to the way their belts are stitched/sown in a system they cal "ASM", but just how effective it is in real crash situations, I don't know. ;)
 


RAAMaudio

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#19
I had the Schroth 4 points from a BMW I bought in my car, had to reconfigure them a bit but used factory parts and they were then just the same as what they now sell for this car. Unfortunately they said BMW on them and not Ford so not legal to use in some sanctioning bodies so I put them back into BMW mode and sold them. They are the only harnesses I would put in a street car, ever, and hope they worked as advertised but I have never heard of a single issue with them not performing right so would take a chance on them.

My Scion TC was a street track car with a full cage, several removable elements, dual density padding in all critical areas, regular padding everywhere else. The main hoop was far back and high enough it would be nearly impossible to strike it, Racetech fixed back real race seats and 6 points, it was a royal pain in the arse to use for anything other than point A to point B, errands where not fun with more than a stop or two. I only planned to drive it on the street on rare occasions, it was 7 or 8 years old when I sold it with 8k miles on it.

If the AP is made according to the rules, which as mentioned are barely adequate in some orgs, it should be at least 1.75" in .120 wall thickness or 2" in .090, either way very heavy for something adding danger to ones car, making it slower, etc....unfortunately too many are not aware of such issues and buy such things:(
 




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