• Sign Up! To view all forums and unlock additional cool features

    Welcome to the #1 Fiesta ST Forum and Fiesta ST community dedicated to Fiesta ST owners and enthusiasts. Register for an account, it's free and it's easy, so don't hesitate to join the Fiesta ST Forum today!


MAF versus MAP

me32

1000 Post Club
Messages
1,829
Likes
264
Location
fairfield
#21
Well shit, I didn't even have a speech prepared because I didn't think this day was going to come.

Look, way back in the beginning you were just a guy with a high mileage car and I was just a guy that was interested in seeing what shape the valves were in to give me more of an idea of how well Ford had mitigated (or tried) issues that other DI communities were fighting tooth-and-nail. It could have literally been that simple and all of this nonsense could have been avoided. None of this should have ever even been a thing.

This is a great example of why I've basically left the community though; it seems that we have become (or at least have been) a very fact-resistant community. People are too busy trying to feel like they're important to actually worry about whether they're correct. I've tried posting information to help people become informed, but that didn't seem to have the effect I hoped because I'm not the best communicator online. Using this example, it should never have taken over a year for someone to understand this particular basic and easily-tested concept.

I appreciate the fact that you at least posted up on here when you had supporting information from a source you trusted, even though it was against your opinion. You could have just as well gone on forever never admitting that you had the info, and it takes a lot to admit publicly when you're wrong. Take a rep point and bury the hatchet, just know that you're obligated to correct the next clown that thinks the USDM FiST is MAF-tuned.
Well put man.
 


XuperXero

Active member
Messages
587
Likes
124
Location
Wuxi
#22
Another proof: Cobb AP doesn't work for our Euro FiST. Local community tried a few times here. Even the Mountune AP has limited functions compared to the Cobb AP.

Jealous of you custom tuned guys.
 


Last edited:

Quisp

1000 Post Club
Messages
1,118
Likes
402
Location
Davenport
#23
Well shit, I didn't even have a speech prepared because I didn't think this day was going to come.

Look, way back in the beginning you were just a guy with a high mileage car and I was just a guy that was interested in seeing what shape the valves were in to give me more of an idea of how well Ford had mitigated (or tried) issues that other DI communities were fighting tooth-and-nail. It could have literally been that simple and all of this nonsense could have been avoided. None of this should have ever even been a thing.

This is a great example of why I've basically left the community though; it seems that we have become (or at least have been) a very fact-resistant community. People are too busy trying to feel like they're important to actually worry about whether they're correct. I've tried posting information to help people become informed, but that didn't seem to have the effect I hoped because I'm not the best communicator online. Using this example, it should never have taken over a year for someone to understand this particular basic and easily-tested concept.

I appreciate the fact that you at least posted up on here when you had supporting information from a source you trusted, even though it was against your opinion. You could have just as well gone on forever never admitting that you had the info, and it takes a lot to admit publicly when you're wrong. Take a rep point and bury the hatchet, just know that you're obligated to correct the next clown that thinks the USDM FiST is MAF-tuned.
I'm glad to have joined when yourself and Raam were posting . A lot of great info has been buried. This is still a great bunch minus a few .
 


OP
antarctica24

antarctica24

Active member
Messages
669
Likes
344
Location
O'Fallon, MO, USA
Thread Starter #24
Well shit, I didn't even have a speech prepared because I didn't think this day was going to come.

Look, way back in the beginning you were just a guy with a high mileage car and I was just a guy that was interested in seeing what shape the valves were in to give me more of an idea of how well Ford had mitigated (or tried) issues that other DI communities were fighting tooth-and-nail. It could have literally been that simple and all of this nonsense could have been avoided. None of this should have ever even been a thing.

This is a great example of why I've basically left the community though; it seems that we have become (or at least have been) a very fact-resistant community. People are too busy trying to feel like they're important to actually worry about whether they're correct. I've tried posting information to help people become informed, but that didn't seem to have the effect I hoped because I'm not the best communicator online. Using this example, it should never have taken over a year for someone to understand this particular basic and easily-tested concept.

I appreciate the fact that you at least posted up on here when you had supporting information from a source you trusted, even though it was against your opinion. You could have just as well gone on forever never admitting that you had the info, and it takes a lot to admit publicly when you're wrong. Take a rep point and bury the hatchet, just know that you're obligated to correct the next clown that thinks the USDM FiST is MAF-tuned.
First and foremost,

starward image.jpg


More importantly though, Tuning in this environment is worse than some lost forgotten voodoo chant from a tibetan monk.

There is absolutely no reason this had to go on so long, all it would have taken is for a noted expert like Mountune, Cobb, or any other well branded tuner to step up and say, hey, no MAF here. That's is. But even when I called Cobb just to ask, it was like I had asked for the keys to Fort Knox. I spent a lot of money going to Electronic Fuel Injection Management classes so that I could learn to tune my other cars with HP Tuners as this is my first Ford. And I get it, they are not the same car, but the technology is the same. Since last night apparently the revelations kept coming. I also found out from a friend of mine in Michigan, who did the LSX in the Solstace that the MAF sensor has not really expanded its ability to measure air over 12,000Hertz and while you can get a piece that allows you to rescale, it just is going WOT after that. Again, had that information been know, there would have been absolutely no reason for this to go on for as long as it did.

Dont be offended, Who are you? right? Who are any of us? Your just a guy posting on a open forum. That doesn't give you any credibility for no other reason than the one you gave, and why you said you left. You could have really been responsible for tuning the space shuttle, but I dont know that. All I have is your word. You make a very valid point, The forums are full of people who are so claimed experts, and just because they say it doesnt make it so. And in all of these conversations over the last year, how many times have you stepped up with evidence to back up your claims? Not once. We have had other so called forum experts chime in with their memes to put me down because I am some kind idiot, but none of them provided any backup either. NONE. Telling me that no tuner will admit to using a MAF to tune this car is not evidence. Its like doing your dissertation when you put together your PHD. You have a bibliography section that sites all of your references on how you are basing your conclusions.

So it really brings to a head the real problem, how much help is a forum(not trashing our forum), that refuses to share information from a reliable source?

1. We have a company like COBB(not trashing Cobb), that refuses to sell the pro version of the software unless your a shop, or I make up a fake business, create a fake website, fake email, only to prove to them I am a business so you can buy software to tune your own car. WHAT IS THAT? WHAT IS THE BIG SECRET.
2. Everybody and their bother is so worried about giving up some grand secret about tuning these cars, that they may not be able to to put food on the table.
3. Then you have companies like DHM, that are wanting you to pay up for something they dont even have ready to ship.
4. And Mountune, (Not trashing them either), they dont want me posting anything about them tuning my car until they are complete with the process. Im sure they have their reasons and I will respect their wishes.

For all of these, its a learning process. Showing how it progresses is not making them vulnerable. You (dyn085) if all people should be able to quantify that there is 100 different ways to tune this car. Doest mean the results would be different but for every tuner, I would be willing to bet that there are not 2 of them that went about it the same way and every single one of them thought they were right.

I can only admit what I know at the time I know it. Not one time here, did I ever state anything that was not true as it pertains to ODB II and fuel injection management. I just could not get anyone with accreditation to step up and confirm, because it is all some big secret.

I am very grateful to Randy, he didn't have to say anything. Its not like I am vying for his job or any other tuners job. I don't want to be a professional tuner, and I don't want to be on a forum as an expert in tuning or an expert in anything. I like you if I remember, have built several high horse powered cars and it meant enough to me to want to understand how it works to spend the money and take the classes. That's all it was. If I can help someone out in the audio arena then I am happy to share whatever information I can share that would help someone obtain their goals.

In the end, I'm glad you were proven right and I'm glad I was able to help you be proven right with facts from a reputable person from a reputable company. It means in the future, if I have a question, I have another person I can go to to get reputable advice should you be willing to share.

Thank you Dyn085 for your time and patience.
Sincerely
Antarctica24
 


jeff

2000 Post Club
Messages
2,309
Likes
3,220
Location
Evans
#25
Well shit, I didn't even have a speech prepared because I didn't think this day was going to come.

This is a great example of why I've basically left the community though; it seems that we have become (or at least have been) a very fact-resistant community. People are too busy trying to feel like they're important to actually worry about whether they're correct. I've tried posting information to help people become informed, but that didn't seem to have the effect I hoped because I'm not the best communicator online.
antarctica24, props for humbling yourself.

dyn085, it is nice to hear from you.

In reference to the above quote from dyn085, I am happy to see that there is resolve happening here but reading the above pisses me off slightly. It was you who, about a year ago, got my Pierce traction/torsion review thread closed by your constant arguing, insults, and demeaning comments. It's all still there unedited (at this point). You shot down my review of a product that you didn't even have on your car. For all your knowledge and thirst for facts it is bewildering to me how you think that you who don't even have a product (in this case, the Pierce bars) on your car can argue so vehemently against my review of the part that is on my car being experienced by me (not to mention agreed to by many many others on that thread).

Cliff's Notes of that ill-forsaken thread:
Duane: "Sure Jeff you put traction bars on your car and think you've noticed a difference in wheel hop/torque steer, just like many others did. But you're wrong and I will criticize you and put you down, there is no way those bars could have that effect on your car. And by the way I don't have them on my car, but I know everything so I'm right."

In any case I say that to say you're part of the problem you speak of above in the quote. Sure all of us have mixed motives and partial knowledge. But before you paint this online community as bunch of idiots and flee back to your ivory tower, consider that you might be contributing to the problem.

It is good to hear from you again and I want to reiterate that I have gained from your knowledge of tuning and modding in general, and I say that sincerely. I also mostly respect your approach to Bryan (antarctica24) here today so thumbs up to you in that regard.
 


dyn085

2000 Post Club
Messages
2,434
Likes
820
Location
Vancouver
#26
antarctica24, props for humbling yourself.

dyn085, it is nice to hear from you.

In reference to the above quote from dyn085, I am happy to see that there is resolve happening here but reading the above pisses me off slightly. It was you who, about a year ago, got my Pierce traction/torsion review thread closed by your constant arguing, insults, and demeaning comments. It's all still there unedited (at this point). You shot down my review of a product that you didn't even have on your car. For all your knowledge and thirst for facts it is bewildering to me how you think that you who don't even have a product (in this case, the Pierce bars) on your car can argue so vehemently against my review of the part that is on my car being experienced by me (not to mention agreed to by many many others on that thread).

Cliff's Notes of that ill-forsaken thread:
Duane: "Sure Jeff you put traction bars on your car and think you've noticed a difference in wheel hop/torque steer, just like many others did. But you're wrong and I will criticize you and put you down, there is no way those bars could have that effect on your car. And by the way I don't have them on my car, but I know everything so I'm right."

In any case I say that to say you're part of the problem you speak of above in the quote. Sure all of us have mixed motives and partial knowledge. But before you paint this online community as bunch of idiots and flee back to your ivory tower, consider that you might be contributing to the problem.

It is good to hear from you again and I want to reiterate that I have gained from your knowledge of tuning and modding in general, and I say that sincerely. I also mostly respect your approach to Bryan (antarctica24) here today so thumbs up to you in that regard.
Here's the link for those that are morbidly curious or need something to do while consuming their popcorn:
http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/8261-REVIEW-Pierce-Motorsports-2pt-lower-chassis-brace-rear-torsion-bar-A-mods

You clearly remember that thread a lot differently than I do, and I even just went back and re-read it to make sure. If you need proof of that, go re-read post #29 at the very bottom where I clearly state that if you are trying to resolve wheel hop to get the bar. In fact, that was my second of two posts before you dragged your intake discussion in and derailed everything else, but prior to you accusing me of dragging your intake thread back in. Notice how drastically different my words are than what you just attempted to paraphrase here?

Ironically, that thread is exactly where the MAF vs MAP argument began, 15 months ago.
 


jeff

2000 Post Club
Messages
2,309
Likes
3,220
Location
Evans
#27
Here's the link for those that are morbidly curious or need something to do while consuming their popcorn:
http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/8261-REVIEW-Pierce-Motorsports-2pt-lower-chassis-brace-rear-torsion-bar-A-mods

You clearly remember that thread a lot differently than I do, and I even just went back and re-read it to make sure. If you need proof of that, go re-read post #29 at the very bottom where I clearly state that if you are trying to resolve wheel hop to get the bar. In fact, that was my second of two posts before you dragged your intake discussion in and derailed everything else, but prior to you accusing me of dragging your intake thread back in. Notice how drastically different my words are than what you just attempted to paraphrase here?

Ironically, that thread is exactly where the MAF vs MAP argument began, 15 months ago.
Post #27, you clearly deny the bar will help with traction which was what I was saying it would do.

Again, it is simple - I put the bar on, traction increases, I report it, you deny it is possible, post 27, don't even have the part on your car.

Yes the thread is there, anyone can go read and see what is what.

"Morbid", "popcorn" - your tone hasn't changed in a year Duane. I'm trying to have an intelligent discussion with you, even complimenting you, and you respond with sarcasm and a demeaning tone.
 


dyn085

2000 Post Club
Messages
2,434
Likes
820
Location
Vancouver
#28
Post #27, you clearly deny the bar will help with traction which was what I was saying it would do.

Again, it is simple - I put the bar on, traction increases, I report it, you deny it is possible, post 27, don't even have the part on your car.

Yes the thread is there, anyone can go read and see what is what.

"Morbid", "popcorn" - your tone hasn't changed in a year Duane. I'm trying to have an intelligent discussion with you, even complimenting you, and you respond with sarcasm and a demeaning tone.
Then start being intelligent and stop trying to equate traction and wheel hop. I literally cannot explain it to you any simpler than I already have. And post #27 says exactly the same thing as 29, just with different words.

And of course my tone hasn't changed, just like yours hasn't. Just because a year goes by doesn't mean that we are completely different people.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 


jeff

2000 Post Club
Messages
2,309
Likes
3,220
Location
Evans
#29
Then start being intelligent and stop trying to equate traction and wheel hop. I literally cannot explain it to you any simpler than I already have. And post #27 says exactly the same thing as 29, just with different words.

And of course my tone hasn't changed, just like yours hasn't. Just because a year goes by doesn't mean that we are completely different people.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
I am somewhat intelligent. No need to be an asshole.

Traction, wheel hop, wheel spin are all terms that were used. Again, post #27 along with several other pages of that discussion reveal what I repeatedly say, that you shot down my review of a product that you have zero perspective on. But there is no point trying to discuss this any further, you cannot communicate in a civil manner and you are unwilling to acknowledge that you are guilty of the very thing so many of us unintelligent simpletons have done to make this forum what it is.

I wish you the best, good day Duane.
 


dyn085

2000 Post Club
Messages
2,434
Likes
820
Location
Vancouver
#30
I am somewhat intelligent. No need to be an asshole.

Traction, wheel hop, wheel spin are all terms that were used. Again, post #27 along with several other pages of that discussion reveal what I repeatedly say, that you shot down my review of a product that you have zero perspective on. But there is no point trying to discuss this any further, you cannot communicate in a civil manner and you are unwilling to acknowledge that you are guilty of the very thing so many of us unintelligent simpletons have done to make this forum what it is.

I wish you the best, good day Duane.
I can't tell if you're intentionally being overdramatic or if you're just that delicate of a flower. In either direction, I want to believe that you're intelligent except for the fact that you just can't seem to grasp how traction and wheel hop are different. I've explained it to you at least a couple of times now. They are not the same - period. If you can't understand that and are too lazy to try and learn then you'll never come close to understanding what my complaint was, because it is yet another example in and of itself.

Do you truly not understand that?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 


jeff

2000 Post Club
Messages
2,309
Likes
3,220
Location
Evans
#31
I can't tell if you're intentionally being overdramatic or if you're just that delicate of a flower. In either direction, I want to believe that you're intelligent except for the fact that you just can't seem to grasp how traction and wheel hop are different. I've explained it to you at least a couple of times now. They are not the same - period. If you can't understand that and are too lazy to try and learn then you'll never come close to understanding what my complaint was, because it is yet another example in and of itself.

Do you truly not understand that?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
A lazy delicate flower, I have been called worse.

Of course I understand the differences. Yes in post #29 you agreed with one thing but for the other 95% of the thread your comments were - I'll say it again - criticizing me for reviewing a product as I experienced it, one that you did not have on your car. This is not about whether or not Jeff understands what wheel hop is. It is about the integrity of your commentary and your attitude.

Answer me this one very simple question Duane:

At the time you sabotaged my review of those Pierce Motorsports products, did you have them on your own Fiesta so that you could drive the car a significant amount of miles, from behind the drivers seat, before AND after install, to make an informed criticism of my description of the effects of the parts on the car?
 


dyn085

2000 Post Club
Messages
2,434
Likes
820
Location
Vancouver
#32
A lazy delicate flower, I have been called worse.

Of course I understand the differences. Yes in post #29 you agreed with one thing but for the other 95% of the thread your comments were - I'll say it again - criticizing me for reviewing a product as I experienced it, one that you did not have on your car. This is not about whether or not Jeff understands what wheel hop is. It is about the integrity of your commentary and your attitude.

Answer me this one very simple question Duane:

At the time you sabotaged my review of those Pierce Motorsports products, did you have them on your own Fiesta so that you could drive the car a significant amount of miles, from behind the drivers seat, before AND after install, to make an informed criticism of my description of the effects of the parts on the car?
You need to re-read your thread then; you're entirely wrong about my criticisms.

Sabotaged your review, lol. Maybe you shouldn't have brought up your intake thread so that we could have stayed on topic.

Can you make an informed criticism or opinion of a big-turbo FiST by driving someone else's and learning about compressor maps or is the only way to understand it by buying one and putting it on your car? You're too busy with your straw man argument to even try and comprehend the actual discussion.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 


jeff

2000 Post Club
Messages
2,309
Likes
3,220
Location
Evans
#33
You need to re-read your thread then; you're entirely wrong about my criticisms.

Sabotaged your review, lol. Maybe you shouldn't have brought up your intake thread so that we could have stayed on topic.

Can you make an informed criticism or opinion of a big-turbo FiST by driving someone else's and learning about compressor maps or is the only way to understand it by buying one and putting it on your car? You're too busy with your straw man argument to even try and comprehend the actual discussion.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
You successfully dodged my question, to which the answer is obvious.

Enough said.
 


Truth in Ruin

1000 Post Club
Messages
1,177
Likes
955
Location
Lincoln
#35
[MENTION=929]antarctica24[/MENTION], your meme is hilarious.

What does wheel-hop, and wheel-spin have in common? They're both not hooking up. So maybe they shouldn't call it a traction bar, but rather, a hookup bar. I'm going to get one regardless.

See y'all next year...
 


OP
antarctica24

antarctica24

Active member
Messages
669
Likes
344
Location
O'Fallon, MO, USA
Thread Starter #36
[MENTION=929]antarctica24[/MENTION], your meme is hilarious.

What does wheel-hop, and wheel-spin have in common? They're both not hooking up. So maybe they shouldn't call it a traction bar, but rather, a hookup bar. I'm going to get one regardless.

See y'all next year...
Wheel hop is when the wheel is leaving the ground during acceleration. it is almost bouncing this is caused from engine movement during acceleration. This is generally eliminated by installing an aftermarket rear motor mount.

Wheel spin is nothing more than not getting traction during acceleration, the wheels are spinning but the car is not moving. This is very difficult to mitigate on a front wheel drive car that has a lot of horsepower.

On a read wheel drive car, you deal with it in several ways, like, fatter wheels, lighter drive shaft, weight transfer. But there are trade-offs. If the wheels hook that tends to break things, If you have ever seen a dragcar stand up and do a wheelie, That is when they have completely mitigated wheel spin.

On a front wheel drive car and outs in particular, we have focus axels, so they are stronger. But adjusting the camber, putting on thicker tires, slicks, adjusting the suspension, all can help to mitigate wheel spin, and even an aftermarket differential, but you should look at wheel spin as a safety mechanism. Allowing some wheel spin will keep you from breaking something. You just have to retrain the way you drive a little bit.

This is why getting a turbo with a lot of front end torque is not always a good thing. It has been said many times that a race is won in the first 60 feet at the drag strip. So imagine two cars, one has a front torque loaded turbo, and the other in the same car, has the same power but the torque curve comes in a little later. Who would win? We may have to put it to the test, but my money goes on the guy whos torque comes in 1000 hp later. Why? When the light turns green he is going to be able to move his car quicker. This is why you see all these guys videos, do a rolling 30mph start. They do it because they dont have any traction in 1st and most of time 2nd gear. Put those same guys on the track and race them from a dead stop, and the guy whose torque curve is 1000 rpm higher will cross the finish line first, and be faster in the 1/4 every time. That car is also going to be able to carry his power curve higher.

You ask what about the lag? What about it? On these small cars its negligible. and if it is something that really bothers you, you can always increase the displacement of the motor. Moving this motor to a 1.8 or even 2.3 would do wonders to this car. You would get Normally aspirated power down low with a kick in the ass power above 2500rpm.
 


Messages
276
Likes
207
Location
Beltsville
#38
I wanted to answer the question: Why is there a mass airflow parameter that can be datalogged if the MAF sensor is not being used?

The speed density on these cars is much more than a MAPxRPM VE table. It uses a quadratic equation based on many parameters to use RPM to find a parameter that is basically airflowmass/pressure.This is done for every combination of camshaft angles as well. But this is measured not in airflow/time, but actually airflow/event (basically standardized per RPM, not time) and then basically is multiplied by rpm/2. (There is one intake stroke for every 2 Revs). This is how the ECU can give you airflow mass without a MAF sensor. The ecu needs to know airflow mass to know how much fuel to inject. You can also work backwards from fuel injected amount and AFR to find airflow.

TLDR: Speed density still measures airflow.

Also, if you unplug the MAF you get a AIT sensor CEL, not a maf sensor CEL.
 


Messages
276
Likes
207
Location
Beltsville
#40
Mitch;

What is the purpose/function of the (MAP?) sensor down on the factory cold side charge pipe (also switched over to your and others' aftermarket pipes)? [???:)]
In short, boost control. The ECU asks for a desired pressure before the throttle body. If it sees more than it wants, it closes the throttle body to make sure that the boost doesn't get into the intake manifold.
 




Top