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MAF versus MAP

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antarctica24

antarctica24

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Thread Starter #61
You seemed to have started this thread with an instruction sheet on Mountune letterhead as proof that you were right all along. Then you post your tuner's E-mail as proof that perhaps you were mistaken. If I remember correctly from the other thread, dyn085, or some other member, provided you links to Cobb literature as proof that you were wrong.

I'm curious as to why you consider the Mountune tuner's E-mail as proof but not Cobb's literature. This isn't a dig by any means, just curious as to why the bias towards your tuner's word? And, is his word really 'proof?'
I started the thread. I misread what I had. I made a mistake. Someone posted some information and I compliemented them. This whole thing could have been avaooded had I just not asked. I could have just kept to my dumb self and not thought that I could get any relevant information from a forum that supported the car I chose to drive.

I don't personally have anything against Cobb that I can think of, they have been around for a while and have a huge following. They don't make any products that can be installed by a dealer as an option and the car still be under warranty unless I'm wrong. I'm sure if I am dyn085 can point it out for me. I am sucking as much crow as I can suck. I am not sure what else you want. Maybe the problem all along was the general I know everything attitude dyn085 likes to project. There are hundreads of ways to share information. Being an ass about it is not one of them. It's like the way he treated Jeff. Dyn085 never even had the part on his car but for some reason dyn085 is a freakin expert. It's all in the attitude. If you want to be on a forum and if you have general knowledge that can be helpful then be helpful. I've been involved with competition Audio for 20 years. I chose to write over 15 pages of material for the forum regarding how to make you car sound good. The people I was having disagreements with we got together and figured how we could benefit the forum together to help everyone on every level get the best out of their sound system. That is what this forum should be about. Helping others make the best out of their car. There is always going to be someone like myself who based on past experiences things they know everything and how you handle them makes or breaks a lasting friendship. People come here not to be riculded and put down but to participate with like minds, mods, and cars. If the only thing you can it to put other people down then don't bother. Just read the post and move on. Some people are thick headed. I am one of this people. You have to hold the nail and hammer it in then ask to make sure it went in before I get sometimes. But I am very capable of admitting when I'm wrong which I clearly was. I don't take advice fro. People or companies that screw me over out of money. Mountune has an unbelievable reputation, they are supported by ford and do a lot of stuff in the racing community that a lot of people are just not aware of. They have just about too much attitude for me, but they have earned that right. I have the 1800.00 and so far I feel like it was a good deal. Randy has been very kind and patient in answering every question I have asked without any excuses or non sense. I get the impression he cares about what he does which I cannot say about some others on here.

If your knowledgeable then be helpful. Share it because you don't get to take it with you. Here's an example. I'm an IT guy. 27 years or so. People call me all the time to help them fix their computer. I could end spending 5-10 hours trying to get some crap off of it, then get it reloaded on a machine that is 10 years old. I do it for free. I don't charge anything. I give equipment away all the time. I do tech support calls for free all the time. Why because I don't need to make a buck off of everyone. If you know something be helpful, recognize that who your talking to may not get it, and when they don't don't be an ass. Be understanding and patient.

Oh one more time I made a mistake. It wasn't the first time and I can bet it won't be the last. I can say at this point I know how to install a turbo on this car. And I know how to install a catch can, and a exhaust system. And I can make a sound system in this car sound. Enter than anything you have ever heard in your life or could even imagine. I completely understand how a maf sensor and a map sensor work and I now I can say that I know that the fiesta st uses a map sensor for most of its calculations regarding tuning. Oh yeah I know how to install wilwood brakes on this car and a fmic and a cai. ๐Ÿ˜Ž
 


dyn085

2000 Post Club
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#62
I started the thread. I misread what I had. I made a mistake. Someone posted some information and I compliemented them. This whole thing could have been avaooded had I just not asked. I could have just kept to my dumb self and not thought that I could get any relevant information from a forum that supported the car I chose to drive.

I don't personally have anything against Cobb that I can think of, they have been around for a while and have a huge following. They don't make any products that can be installed by a dealer as an option and the car still be under warranty unless I'm wrong. I'm sure if I am dyn085 can point it out for me. I am sucking as much crow as I can suck. I am not sure what else you want. Maybe the problem all along was the general I know everything attitude dyn085 likes to project. There are hundreads of ways to share information. Being an ass about it is not one of them. It's like the way he treated Jeff. Dyn085 never even had the part on his car but for some reason dyn085 is a freakin expert. It's all in the attitude. If you want to be on a forum and if you have general knowledge that can be helpful then be helpful. I've been involved with competition Audio for 20 years. I chose to write over 15 pages of material for the forum regarding how to make you car sound good. The people I was having disagreements with we got together and figured how we could benefit the forum together to help everyone on every level get the best out of their sound system. That is what this forum should be about. Helping others make the best out of their car. There is always going to be someone like myself who based on past experiences things they know everything and how you handle them makes or breaks a lasting friendship. People come here not to be riculded and put down but to participate with like minds, mods, and cars. If the only thing you can it to put other people down then don't bother. Just read the post and move on. Some people are thick headed. I am one of this people. You have to hold the nail and hammer it in then ask to make sure it went in before I get sometimes. But I am very capable of admitting when I'm wrong which I clearly was. I don't take advice fro. People or companies that screw me over out of money. Mountune has an unbelievable reputation, they are supported by ford and do a lot of stuff in the racing community that a lot of people are just not aware of. They have just about too much attitude for me, but they have earned that right. I have the 1800.00 and so far I feel like it was a good deal. Randy has been very kind and patient in answering every question I have asked without any excuses or non sense. I get the impression he cares about what he does which I cannot say about some others on here.

If your knowledgeable then be helpful. Share it because you don't get to take it with you. Here's an example. I'm an IT guy. 27 years or so. People call me all the time to help them fix their computer. I could end spending 5-10 hours trying to get some crap off of it, then get it reloaded on a machine that is 10 years old. I do it for free. I don't charge anything. I give equipment away all the time. I do tech support calls for free all the time. Why because I don't need to make a buck off of everyone. If you know something be helpful, recognize that who your talking to may not get it, and when they don't don't be an ass. Be understanding and patient.

Oh one more time I made a mistake. It wasn't the first time and I can bet it won't be the last. I can say at this point I know how to install a turbo on this car. And I know how to install a catch can, and a exhaust system. And I can make a sound system in this car sound. Enter than anything you have ever heard in your life or could even imagine. I completely understand how a maf sensor and a map sensor work and I now I can say that I know that the fiesta st uses a map sensor for most of its calculations regarding tuning. Oh yeah I know how to install wilwood brakes on this car and a fmic and a cai. [emoji41]
"If you could kick the person in the pants responsible for most of your trouble, you wouldn't sit for a month." - Theodore Roosevelt


'Taking responsibility' by blaming me for being an asshole or not treating someone else exactly the way you feel they should be treated is not actually taking responsibility. I had decided to not even acknowledge the hypocrisy of your second sentence in post #24 (There is absolutely no reason this had to go on so long, all it would have taken is for a noted expert like Mountune, Cobb, or any other well branded tuner to step up and say, hey, no MAF here,) or a bit further down (And in all of these conversations over the last year, how many times have you stepped up with evidence to back up your claims? Not once,), or any of the rest of that post for that matter, because I was trying to be sympathetic of you finally understanding that you were wrong after all of these vehement declarations that you've made over the last 16 months. But let's be real here, you still can't seem to actually acknowledge the fact that everything you are accusing me of not doing I've done, and you just don't want to accept that you refused to do any fact-checking with any of the reputable data that I linked you to.

I've told you these things nicely.
I showed you my datalogs.
I explained how you could test it yourself.
I've linked you to Cobb data.
I've quoted Cobb professionals.
Multiple other members that also have high rep supported my statements.
Not one single member or person anywhere ever supported yours.

Hell, for your #1 bullet on that post: I still have ATR on my computer and have regularly posted data and screenshots of info for most anyone that's ever asked any specific questions about the tuning. For your #2 bullet:I literally answered every question I can ever recall being asked about tuning, even if I was unsure and simply wanted others to weigh in with their knowledge/opinion.

Ironically (yet again), Jeff's issue that you claim to have been defending against with this whole MAF-tuned fight...you actually posted in agreement with me in your first two posts of #36. You nearly stated exactly what I stated in his locked thread, with the exception of me agreeing with Jeff that a traction bar could help his wheel hop and you stating that it would be otherwise rectified with a RMM.

If you want to continue to avoid taking responsibility by throwing in a disclaimer blaming me then go ahead, but if you would just man-up and think about this for a few moments to acknowledge your complete inability and outright refusal to try and fact-check this at any point earlier in the last 16 months, you might grow from it. In parting, I will leave for the evening with a direct copy of the post in your own 'Daily Drivers with performance' thread (worth a read), where I originally stated that this day would come. And if you start from the beginning of that thread, you'll remember that I wasn't such an asshole until you wanted to assert this whole MAF nonsense.


Dude, where are you getting your information. This car is absolutely using the MAF (MASS AIRFLOW SENSOR). It reads almost enough air to calculate fuel up to 14.7 PSI on its own. The MAP sensor is a backup, not a primary. Air temperature means nothing. MAF doesn't read air temp. It reads air density. Much more accurate than reading air temp. The MAP sensor is useless at best. it is a 5 volt sensor and if it was reading only 1 bar, it would be somewhat accurate, but with it being a 2 bar, it has 1/2 the resolution that the 1 bar has and if you go to 3 bar it has 1/3 the resolution. Have you ever tuned a car? You know there are a lot of fuel injection management classes that community colleges offer and there are even some 3rd party companies that offer classes. You might want to consider taking some. Do you think Ford, GM and for that matter all car companies tune their cars for where their going to be located? Who told you the MAF was measuring Air temp?

Maybe the problem here is the Accessport that I have never looked at only allows you to make modifications based on what the MAP sensor says. Is that how you came to that conclusion? You could unplug the MAP sensor and the car will throw a code, but it will still run, and when it gets to the maximum amount of air measured in frequencies through the MAF, it will start to just dump fuel and your A/F will go super rich. If you disconnect the MAF, the car will run like shit. MAP sensors were the chosen method for measuring boost back in the 70's and 80's. it is just a backup now when their is more air moving through the MAF than what it can read. Ford and GM both are working on MAF sensors with enough resolution to read 2 atmospheres worth of air because the MAP sensor does not have adequate resolution.

Im thinking you really should have to have some kind of proof of your expertise before being allows to just chime in on this form. You are making it confusing for everyone who doesn't know and wants to learn. You can datalog to you run out of memory, but if you don't understand how the system works, the information is useless.

You need drop this, like I suggested and I will post a Dyno graph when I can find a dyno.
So I dragged your post here to a more applicable area. I quoted your post so you can come back and read it later.

I tune both of my ST's and a Fusion. You'll see me post in quite a few tuning/performance-related threads because I am one of the only self-tuning members that is willing to discuss it. Feel free to try and discredit me all you want, I can assure you 100% that if you spend a few moments researching that you will return later to understand why your wrong. You may not admit it outright, but you're going to be able to see what you posted when asserting your 'knowledge'.

I can't make this any simpler-you are wrong.
EDIT: I just realized that even Alex at Stratified commented in your daily drivers thread on post #104, completely confirming MAP as well. Not reliable?
EDIT 2: Nvm, I kept reading the thread and got my answer, lol.
 


dyn085

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#63
Oh dang, I totally had a 'you started it' moment that I failed to capitalize on.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 


jeff

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#64
Oh dang, I totally had a 'you started it' moment that I failed to capitalize on.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
You sir still have yet to admit that you disparaged my review (me commenting that the bars help improve traction and lessen wheelspin, you denying it - it's all there in pixels) though you don't have the part on your car to make a judgment. Whether or not you agreed with me that the bar could eliminate wheel hop is not an issue nor is my argument a straw man.

You won't admit it because you seem unable to admit you are wrong, though it is clear from both your tone and your lack of experience with the part.

Props to antarctica24 for admitting when he's wrong and owning it in front of all these people.

And let me admit that I was wrong - one among many many times in life, thousands...millions...wrong to hop into this thread and derail it as such. Still slightly pissed off but probably not best to bring that here. So with this I'll be finished with my banter with Duane over this topic forever, here I say it in public, case closed. I might start a new Pierce review thread simply for the purpose of getting this info out to a new generation of owners, because that's what I try to do in the review threads I've started, but there will be no arguing or mention of these things, just a review based on over one year of driving with them on my car over 2 turbo setups.

In any case I am truly happy you are back in this discussion and were I in Vancouver I'd buy you a beer and talk about cars and life and be able to enjoy myself, at the end of the day this is not even a real issue as life has more pressing things that really matter. Glad you're part of the Fiesta community here dyn085.
 


OP
antarctica24

antarctica24

Active member
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Location
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Thread Starter #65
"If you could kick the person in the pants responsible for most of your trouble, you wouldn't sit for a month." - Theodore Roosevelt


'Taking responsibility' by blaming me for being an asshole or not treating someone else exactly the way you feel they should be treated is not actually taking responsibility. I had decided to not even acknowledge the hypocrisy of your second sentence in post #24 (There is absolutely no reason this had to go on so long, all it would have taken is for a noted expert like Mountune, Cobb, or any other well branded tuner to step up and say, hey, no MAF here,) or a bit further down (And in all of these conversations over the last year, how many times have you stepped up with evidence to back up your claims? Not once,), or any of the rest of that post for that matter, because I was trying to be sympathetic of you finally understanding that you were wrong after all of these vehement declarations that you've made over the last 16 months. But let's be real here, you still can't seem to actually acknowledge the fact that everything you are accusing me of not doing I've done, and you just don't want to accept that you refused to do any fact-checking with any of the reputable data that I linked you to.

I've told you these things nicely.
I showed you my datalogs.
I explained how you could test it yourself.
I've linked you to Cobb data.
I've quoted Cobb professionals.
Multiple other members that also have high rep supported my statements.
Not one single member or person anywhere ever supported yours.

Hell, for your #1 bullet on that post: I still have ATR on my computer and have regularly posted data and screenshots of info for most anyone that's ever asked any specific questions about the tuning. For your #2 bullet:I literally answered every question I can ever recall being asked about tuning, even if I was unsure and simply wanted others to weigh in with their knowledge/opinion.

Ironically (yet again), Jeff's issue that you claim to have been defending against with this whole MAF-tuned fight...you actually posted in agreement with me in your first two posts of #36. You nearly stated exactly what I stated in his locked thread, with the exception of me agreeing with Jeff that a traction bar could help his wheel hop and you stating that it would be otherwise rectified with a RMM.

If you want to continue to avoid taking responsibility by throwing in a disclaimer blaming me then go ahead, but if you would just man-up and think about this for a few moments to acknowledge your complete inability and outright refusal to try and fact-check this at any point earlier in the last 16 months, you might grow from it. In parting, I will leave for the evening with a direct copy of the post in your own 'Daily Drivers with performance' thread (worth a read), where I originally stated that this day would come. And if you start from the beginning of that thread, you'll remember that I wasn't such an asshole until you wanted to assert this whole MAF nonsense.




EDIT: I just realized that even Alex at Stratified commented in your daily drivers thread on post #104, completely confirming MAP as well. Not reliable?
EDIT 2: Nvm, I kept reading the thread and got my answer, lol.
You and everybody else were right
I was wrong
I apologize for questioning your vast tuning knowledge
 


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Location
AncaSTer, Ontario
#67
I saw the title of this thread and gasped "On, NOoooo, not again!"
I read Antarctica finally concedes on page 2, look down and see that this is going on for at least 5 more pages!!!!
This thread should have been titled: EXHUMING DEAD HORSES
 


OP
antarctica24

antarctica24

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Thread Starter #68
See what had happened waasss, the MAF sensor fell off of the traction bar causing the wheel hop to run rich.
Finally some common sense. Had I know this I would have never put meth in my radiator reservoir thinking it would bleed into the cylinder walls making the motor Breathe better finding that all elusive upgrade instead of porting the heads.
 


me32

1000 Post Club
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Location
fairfield
#69
I saw the title of this thread and gasped "On, NOoooo, not again!"
I read Antarctica finally concedes on page 2, look down and see that this is going on for at least 5 more pages!!!!
This thread should have been titled: EXHUMING DEAD HORSES
See we can turn anything into a positive
 




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