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300 WHP on pump gas.. What do I need?

Ylli

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#1
Hello everyone

I'm new to this forum (well as a member.. I've already been reading on these Forums for almost a year now) and happy owner of a 2015 Black Fiesta ST :)

I love the car, i love the way it drives, I love the instant power, its looks ect..

My mods as of today:

- Bluefin Stage 2 remap
- GGR intake
- FMS Catback with Resonator delete
- GFB DV+
- Vibratechnics RMM (stiff/trackday Version as I don't mind Vibration at all)
- Eibach lowering springs (1.5")
- FMIC (planned)
- Downpipe (planned)

The Problem is I love power and 210 whp just doesn't work out for me.

I decided I want to go big Turbo but I have a few no-gos/wants because of the place I live in:

- no mixed fuels, pump fuel only (95, 98, 100 octane)
- bolt on stock Location replacement
- compatibility with EU-spec Fiesta ST
- if possibe, the big Turbo kit should come with an OTS tune (I don't like the idea of paying 1400 bucks just for getting pro tuned on a BT. Yes, you heard right, welcome to switzerland)
- no BT kits where a catback or decat downpipe is included.. Switzerland takes decatted vehicles very serious and will not hesitate to impound your car right on the street where they stop you.. don't get me started on the ticket you'll get.

You guys are pros, and there's quite a few People running big Turbos in here so the best advice would be yours.. Which Turbo kit should I go for if my Goal is 300 WHP on pump gas w/o going too aggressive on a tune? A lot of People refuse to give up the early torque nature of the Fiesta.. I am more than happy to trade it in for a Turbo that builds serious boost when the stock Turbo has already given up..

Edit: also, I'm new to the Turbo world and i love it :)
 


kivnul

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#2
Hopefully someone will correct me if I am wrong, but nobody offers a canned / OTS tune for a big turbo that will meet your requirements. A hybrid turbo (which meets your stock fitment requirement) needs to be tuned to the bleeding edge to hit 300 whp.
 


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#3
Hopefully someone will correct me if I am wrong, but nobody offers a canned / OTS tune for a big turbo that will meet your requirements. A hybrid turbo (which meets your stock fitment requirement) needs to be tuned to the bleeding edge to hit 300 whp.
You are correct. OP are you not able to use the Cobb accessport?


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OP
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Ylli

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Thread Starter #4
Hopefully someone will correct me if I am wrong, but nobody offers a canned / OTS tune for a big turbo that will meet your requirements. A hybrid turbo (which meets your stock fitment requirement) needs to be tuned to the bleeding edge to hit 300 whp.
Sorry my bad.. I just meant it should go where the stock Turbo is instead of being top Mount or something.. A bigger Turbo should have place there or not? The bigger Problem is the Need of a pro tune :( But I really want a big Turbo so if OTS tune isn't possible I am willing to spend 1.4k on a pro tune..

You are correct. OP are you not able to use the Cobb accessport?


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I don't know but I don't think so.. EU spec ECU is different from the US one..

And Bluefin refuses to provide maps above stage 2.. [dunno]
 


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#5
You might want to consider the X47R from Pumaspeed. Not really a "big turbo", it's a hybrid, but I think it should be able to meet all of your needs (you won't have to sacrifice much in the spool department either). I'm not sure how the octane levels differ overseas (if at all), but with access to 100 octane I don't see 300whp being a problem with that turbo.

Also try messaging someone at Pumaspeed if you are interested in that route, they might be able to tune you even though they are in the UK and you are in Switzerland. My tuner is in Canada and I'm in the U.S. They should also be able to give you ranges of WHP on the various octane levels.
 


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Ylli

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Thread Starter #6
You might want to consider the X47R from Pumaspeed. Not really a "big turbo", it's a hybrid, but I think it should be able to meet all of your needs (you won't have to sacrifice much in the spool department either). I'm not sure how the octane levels differ overseas (if at all), but with access to 100 octane I don't see 300whp being a problem with that turbo.

Also try messaging someone at Pumaspeed if you are interested in that route, they might be able to tune you even though they are in the UK and you are in Switzerland. My tuner is in Canada and I'm in the U.S. They should also be able to give you ranges of WHP on the various octane levels.
Yes actually Access to 100 octane wherever I go.. There's a lot of pumps offering 100 around here.. X47r sounds interesting, but didn't someone just say you'll be tuned at the bleeding edge when going 300 WHP with a hybrid..? Wouldn't this be too much strain for the Turbo considering its core is the stock Turbo?

I would love to go with pumaspeed as they have both options, hybrid and big Turbo plus their MAXD software is perfectly compatible with EU-spec Fiestas but I guess I'm on their blacklist.. I wanted to get their stage 2r but after answering 2 of my emails they never bothered replying again. Apparently I ask too much questions or who knows.
 


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#7
First off, I believe your 100 octane is equivalent to our 93 octane. US uses a different octane measurement than other countries from what I've read. (just a reference for US posters in the thread)

Secondly, the issue wouldn't be the turbo size, you'd basically be at the end of the line when it comes to octane. No matter the size of the turbo, a 1.6L can only make so much power given a certain amount of fuel/octane. Add aux injectors though, and you raise your ceiling dramatically.

Wait what kind of currency is a pro tune 1400 dollars? Why can't you e-tune with an AccessPort through one of the major US ST tuners? You really don't need to slap your car on a dyno to get a proper tune.
 


Last edited:

kivnul

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... Why can't you e-tune with an AccessPort through one of the major US ST tuners? You really don't need to slap your car on a dyno to get a proper tune.
EU spec cars use the MAF sensor unlike the US spec. The AccessPort is not used on EU cars. (AFAIK)

Spot on on the octane info. I was just looking it up to post when I saw you had beat me to the punch.
 


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Ylli

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Thread Starter #9
First off, I believe your 100 octane is equivalent to our 93 octane. US uses a different octane measurement than other countries from what I've read. (just a reference for US posters in the thread)

Secondly, the issue wouldn't be the turbo size, you'd basically be at the end of the line when it comes to octane. No matter the size of the turbo, a 1.6L can only make so much power given a certain amount of fuel/octane. Add aux injectors though, and you raise your ceiling dramatically.

Wait what kind of currency is a pro tune 1400 dollars? Why can't you e-tune with an AccessPort through one of the major US ST tuners? You really don't need to slap your car on a dyno to get a proper tune.
I don't really know.. 95 is our "Standard" Quality fuel.. 98 is premium Quality and 100 is considered as "no one who isn't tuned for it Needs it" 100 is Special though as only one pump make offers this.. (Shell.. But there's lots of Shell pumps in switzerland), other pumps only offer up to 98.

How come that with different Turbos I've seen dyno Sheets ranging from 270 WHP to 320 WHP though most of them stating "maxed out on stock fuel pump"? I'm fairly new to the Turbo world, some questions might Sound stupid but I learn fast :)

It's actually 1250 swiss Francs, I thought that would be about 1400 Dollars [biggrin] includes "before" dyno run, Tuning on the roll and "after" dyno run, but still pretty expensive considering the bluefin stage 2 + intake were 600 bucks..

How can I get e-tuned with accessport when my ecu is all different? code xxx might be raising boost for your ecu, for mine it might be inject this amount of fuel if I understand correctly? I highly doubt cobb is going to give themselves a pita work for one swiss customer.

We do have a load of E85 pumps, but I don't even know where to start with E85.. How you set it up, fuel consumption, can you Switch from e85 to pump gas just like that or not ect..




Thanks for all your quick replies
 


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#10
Sorry for the late response I’m at work. I have zero knowledge about EU tuning but 1400 for a dump tune sounds a little crazy to me. You’re not going anywhere near 300 without a tune and I wouldn’t even recommend upgrading the turbo until you can find someone that can tune the EU fiesta. It sucks pumaspeed isn’t answering maybe call them? Tell them your situation and maybe they will explain some more. Hopefully some of the EU guys and gals will chime in


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#11
Well... I really don't know how you'll tune the car if you can't use an AccessPort honestly. Over here we drop $500 on the AP and then around $175 on a custom tune + $25 or so if you're using aux fuel/ethanol.

Basically with "maxing the fuel pump out" that's false(ish). The in tank, low pressure fuel pump pump I believe can flow around 400hp worth of fuel (source: http://www.stratifiedauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=117_124&products_id=723) and then there's also the HPFP which boosts the fuel pressure to >2000psi for the direct injectors. The direct injectors become the bottleneck at this point since they can literally only flow so much fuel, regardless of octane. You get into something called injector duty cycle (IDC), which basically tells you what % of your fuel injector ceiling your using. Likely anyone on this platform making 300whp without aux fueling is likely using at least 100% or more of their IDC which is definitely ragged edge.

With E85 vs. pump gas, these aren't so easily interchangeable, at least without a change in tune. As a rule of thumb, full E85 will require 1/3 more fuel in order to run your car properly since it's stoich is 9.7 vs stoich of gasoline 14.7. Since you're using a lot more, and since alcohol has nice "slow" burning properties, this gets rid of a lot of possibility for knock and allows you to run more boost/timing advance, etc... and make more power. Since you need more fuel to do the same thing though, again, once you're at the limit of your injectors, you'll run into high high IDCs.
 


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#12
Yes actually Access to 100 octane wherever I go.. There's a lot of pumps offering 100 around here.. X47r sounds interesting, but didn't someone just say you'll be tuned at the bleeding edge when going 300 WHP with a hybrid..? Wouldn't this be too much strain for the Turbo considering its core is the stock Turbo?

I would love to go with pumaspeed as they have both options, hybrid and big Turbo plus their MAXD software is perfectly compatible with EU-spec Fiestas but I guess I'm on their blacklist.. I wanted to get their stage 2r but after answering 2 of my emails they never bothered replying again. Apparently I ask too much questions or who knows.
I wouldn't get too down on them not responding, it probably wasn't anything with your questions but probably how busy they are. You could always try emailing them again or giving them a call. With the information quoted below (Swiss 100 octane = 93 US octane), yes you would probably be pushing it. If you ran an E30 tune (blend of your 100 octane and E85), 300WHP should be achievable without pushing it to the limits, although you might be close.

First off, I believe your 100 octane is equivalent to our 93 octane. US uses a different octane measurement than other countries from what I've read. (just a reference for US posters in the thread)
Well... I really don't know how you'll tune the car if you can't use an AccessPort honestly.
Thank you for the information regarding the 100/93 octane. There are multiple platforms to tune the car besides the Accessport, which I believe is only available in North America (not sure about Mexico). Here in the states they also have the livernois tuner, the diablo tuner, the SCT tuner and maybe some others I am probably missing. Overseas they use different tuning devices.
 


M-Sport fan

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#13
The Polizei there will instantly impound you for a catcon-less down pipe, but NOT for a HUGE, non-factory turbo (with a catted aftermarket down pipe)?? [???:)]
 


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Ylli

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Thread Starter #14
Hey guys thanks for the replies

Okay my dreams are shattered :( there‘s no way i‘m gonna mix e30 myself.. but the link you provided from stratified? Wouldn‘t that make it possible to just spray more pump gas to support the di running at its limit?

If you could run full e85 i would even consider getting tuned for both pump gad and e85 so when i‘m crusing i‘m sub 300 hp and when wanting to have over 300 i‘d just switch tune and fill in e85?

If so I might give pumaspeed a call... doesn‘t peron also make stuff for the europe spec fiesta?

The Polizei there will instantly impound you for a catcon-less down pipe, but NOT for a HUGE, non-factory turbo (with a catted aftermarket down pipe)?? [???:)]
The problem is you can easily hide an aftermarket turbo or intake from the polizei.. 1/100 cases they‘ll tell you to pop open the hood.. (not even on my mustang with cai and muffler delete did they once tell me to open the hood and i drive it like a psychopath) 50/50 if cone filter visible they‘ll fine you (some don’t even see an intake) and you have to fix it and that‘s about it.. they wouldn‘t recognize an aftermarket turbo unless it would be top mount and huge

Catless downpipe on the other end stinks and is considered tax fraud in switzerland.. car stinks / test says too loud, you drive behind the police to the next garage, up on the lift, catless downpipe found, huge turbo found, car gets impounded, you‘ll be registered as a bad boy and fined about 5000 francs.. i‘d rather not risk the police finding everything illegal on my car because of a downpipe
 


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everyplace you live has some goodness, some suckness. I live in Minnesota. good hunting, fishing, winter play things, cheaper housing. nearly free firewood. wages above average, property taxes cheap. some goodness. some suckness> spring is mud season, food sucks compared to new england, women fat, car hobby season short.
......whats your income like? 1400 for tune maybe cheap to us. what does a gti cost there? or a Porsche? if you are in the military reserve do you still get a machine gun? just saying, toys cost money, do spend it, or die with no fun. and others will spend it for you. sorry for rant. boyracer.
 


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Ylli

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Thread Starter #17
everyplace you live has some goodness, some suckness. I live in Minnesota. good hunting, fishing, winter play things, cheaper housing. nearly free firewood. wages above average, property taxes cheap. some goodness. some suckness> spring is mud season, food sucks compared to new england, women fat, car hobby season short.
......whats your income like? 1400 for tune maybe cheap to us. what does a gti cost there? or a Porsche? if you are in the military reserve do you still get a machine gun? just saying, toys cost money, do spend it, or die with no fun. and others will spend it for you. sorry for rant. boyracer.
No it may not and it won‘t be cheap for you because average income here is 4500, i‘m above that but that‘s still about 1/4 of my income just for a tune. A new 7 gti base model is 40k and a 911 carrera s around 150k. My fist was 28k back in 2015, used ones now 16-20k.

I know toys cost money else I wouldn‘t have bought these cars and started modifying the fist, i dump the money into it with no regret but tuning prices are straight up unreasonable over here. Full whipple kit (mustang) with supporting mods 10k where you come from? Try 30k.

I don‘t take this as a rant, don‘t worry. This is a forum and stuff will get discussed.. but anyway we‘re going off topic

Edit: I'm not trying to complain either, I'm just explaining.
 


kivnul

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... there‘s no way i‘m gonna mix e30 myself.. but the link you provided from stratified? Wouldn‘t that make it possible to just spray more pump gas to support the di running at its limit?
The problem you run into at 300 HP is not a lack of quantity of fuel, it is octane. One way to increase octane is to add some E85 to your regular 100 octane fuel. This allows the car to run with more advanced timing = more power. Once you start hitting above 330? HP the car cant provide enough quantity of gas and that is when having the auxiliary fuel system helps.

If you could run full e85 i would even consider getting tuned for both pump gad and e85 so when i‘m crusing i‘m sub 300 hp and when wanting to have over 300 i‘d just switch tune and fill in e85?
Having tunes for different fuels in general is a great idea. Having said that, there is no HP benefit to going higher than E50 or so (the energy density of the fuel gets so low that you have to use a ton of it to make the same power)

Edit -- All the above is for a hybrid turbo. Things could be somewhat different number wise for a big turbo.
 


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Ylli

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Thread Starter #19
The problem you run into at 300 HP is not a lack of quantity of fuel, it is octane. One way to increase octane is to add some E85 to your regular 100 octane fuel. This allows the car to run with more advanced timing = more power. Once you start hitting above 330? HP the car cant provide enough quantity of gas and that is when having the auxiliary fuel system helps.



Having tunes for different fuels in general is a great idea. Having said that, there is no HP benefit to going higher than E50 or so (the energy density of the fuel gets so low that you have to use a ton of it to make the same power)

Edit -- All the above is for a hybrid turbo. Things could be somewhat different number wise for a big turbo.
Ahh.. the 1.6 engine can only make so much power on a certain fuel type no matter how much you dump into it so spraying more pump gas over an aux system does nothing because octane rating is too low..? Meaning no matter what you put on it it‘s gonna stay at 300-ish until you go higher octane? Or why do you say it could be different with a big turbo?

So what factor is ultimately going to decide how much power a 1.6 or 2.0 or whatever can make on pump gas?

You say there is no hp benefit in running higher than e50... am i understanding right that you basically said when going full e85 fuel consumption would be higher than on e50 because you need more of it? So it would actually be „bad“ to run e85

Sorry man i only got a few hours sleep, having trouble to get everything right in my head with all those things playing different roles lol
 


kivnul

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#20
A bigger turbo allows higher HP by being able to move a lot of air at a high RPM - The whole system moves more fuel and air at that level and thus gets a benefit from a aux fuel setup.

A hybrid turbo, when it is running at max, produces less air at high RPM (versus a big turbo) and the stock fuel system can keep up. The main way to increase HP at that point is by increasing timing which a higher octane facilitates. Running higher than E50 with a hybrid can actually hit the limits of the stock fuel system.

Also, hopefully someone else can chime in on the HP numbers with a hybrid, 100 octane and e30. For some reason I am thinking about 270 whp with 100 octane(RON) and about 300 whp with the e30 tuned. It would not hurt to look into the x47 turbo thread for details. (I am also working with little sleep and no caffeine)
 


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