• Sign Up! To view all forums and unlock additional cool features

    Welcome to the #1 Fiesta ST Forum and Fiesta ST community dedicated to Fiesta ST owners and enthusiasts. Register for an account, it's free and it's easy, so don't hesitate to join the Fiesta ST Forum today!


How many people warm up their Fiesta ST before driving?

How many people warm up their Fiesta ST before driving?

  • I don't

    Votes: 122 34.0%
  • I always do

    Votes: 131 36.5%
  • I do but only on really cold days

    Votes: 106 29.5%

  • Total voters
    359
Messages
30
Likes
9
Location
Lake Barrington
Article quotes:
<<.............. start up your engine, and let it idle to warm up. But contrary to popular belief, this does not prolong the life of your engine; in fact, it decreases it by stripping oil away from the engine's cylinders and pistons. ..................>>

So uhh... your cylinder walls are lined with oil when off, but starting the vehicle and idling strips that oil off. Okee dokee...
Yeah, it makes perfect sense..."When your engine is cold, the gasoline is less likely to evaporate and create the correct ratio of air and vaporized fuel for combustion." "That's a problem because you're actually putting extra fuel into the combustion chamber to make it burn and some of it can get onto the cylinder walls," So gasoline is VERY corrosive to any materials! Basically, by letting your car idle longer that about 30-45 seconds in COLD (-20 to 32 degree) weather, the AFR sensors will get confused and dump gas into the cylinders due to the extremely dense air that is in there as well... When you have an engine thats super cold like that and the gas has no where to go since its not warm enough to evaporate, what do you think is going to happen? There is going to be too much put in there and the corrosive tendencies of the gas will strip the cylinder walls of it oily lubrication!
 


Rhinopolis

Active member
Messages
665
Likes
180
Location
Houston
Yeah, it makes perfect sense..."When your engine is cold, the gasoline is less likely to evaporate and create the correct ratio of air and vaporized fuel for combustion." "That's a problem because you're actually putting extra fuel into the combustion chamber to make it burn and some of it can get onto the cylinder walls," So gasoline is VERY corrosive to any materials! Basically, by letting your car idle longer that about 30-45 seconds in COLD (-20 to 32 degree) weather, the AFR sensors will get confused and dump gas into the cylinders due to the extremely dense air that is in there as well... When you have an engine thats super cold like that and the gas has no where to go since its not warm enough to evaporate, what do you think is going to happen? There is going to be too much put in there and the corrosive tendencies of the gas will strip the cylinder walls of it oily lubrication!
This should be easy to verify and by monitoring actual AFR on initial startup, correct? If the car is running rich on cold startup, AFR's will be low and in the 10's. Am I off base on this?

One counter to what you said above and I am thinking out loud here, is that a quality oil with a good NOACK rating (resistance to volatility and evaporation of a lubricant) should fight this from happening. No?
 


Messages
30
Likes
9
Location
Lake Barrington
This should be easy to verify and by monitoring actual AFR on initial startup, correct? If the car is running rich on cold startup, AFR's will be low and in the 10's. Am I off base on this?

One counter to what you said above and I am thinking out loud here, is that a quality oil with a good NOACK rating (resistance to volatility and evaporation of a lubricant) should fight this from happening. No?
Yes, about the AFR readings... but as for the oil it SHOULD help but that something that is hard to see or research on as its inside the engine! But if the oil is more resistive to breaking down by corrosive materials then it would definitely help! That being said, it only helps for so long. So, like the article says letting the car idle will take longer for the engine to get to optimal operating temp. So, the longer it takes the longer there is too much gas being dumped in the system and none of the excess evaporating or being burned off correctly! Thats why they say to gently drive it after idling for 30-45 seconds, to both help the engine come to operating temps and allow the AFR sensors to warm up correctly make the adjustments so that there isnt a ton of gas being dumped in the cylinders!
 


Intuit

3000 Post Club
Messages
3,650
Likes
2,255
Location
South West Ohio
Yeah, it makes perfect sense...
Saying your engine starts out lubricated and is then stripped of that lubrication on startup is backwards. To state the obvious, the actual reason the overwhelming majority of engine wear occurs on startup, is gravity related.

"When your engine is cold, the gasoline is less likely to evaporate and create the correct ratio of air and vaporized fuel for combustion." "That's a problem because you're actually putting extra fuel into the combustion chamber to make it burn and some of it can get onto the cylinder walls," So gasoline is VERY corrosive to any materials! Basically, by letting your car idle longer that about 30-45 seconds in COLD (-20 to 32 degree) weather, the AFR sensors will get confused and dump gas into the cylinders due to the extremely dense air that is in there as well... When you have an engine thats super cold like that and the gas has no where to go since its not warm enough to evaporate, what do you think is going to happen? There is going to be too much put in there and the corrosive tendencies of the gas will strip the cylinder walls of it oily lubrication!
So the response this problem is, to drastically increase cylinder pressures along with 50-100% more explosions (RPMs)... makes no sense either.
 


neeqness

1000 Post Club
Messages
1,398
Likes
166
Location
LA
Ok, here is the deal. Gravity pulls all the engine oil into the oil pan except for a nominal amount in the filter (so the engine is bone dry at startup if left sitting for awhile). When the engine is running, the oil is pumped back into the engine but at startup especially in cold climates it will take sometime for the oil to warm-up to operating temps and properly lubricate the engine as intended.

Most modern cars (including ours) already idle when cold at slightly higher rpms (~1000-1500) than when warm (~800). The higher rpms help the engine warm up faster than if it idled at ~800 and compensate for the fuel mixture being a bit richer. The engine slowly lowers rpms as the engine warms up. These are idle rpms. You can not lower these rpms by driving the car except by placing a heavier load on the engine which is one of the last things you want to do when the car isn't at operating temperature yet. Not only this but by driving your car while it's still cold, even when it's "like a grandma", you run a very high likelihood of running the car at higher rpms than idle and the additional load on the engine multiplies the risk of wear which ultimately causes more wear than just idling, especially since the motor is not properly warmed up and lubricated yet.

This means that the higher risk to wear is not during idle but while you are driving. Remember that even if you are driving slow, you are also placing a heavier load on the engine and most likely running higher rpms than idle at a time when the engine is the least lubricated.

Sent using Tapatalk
 


Quisp

1000 Post Club
Messages
1,118
Likes
404
Location
Davenport
Oil clings to cylinder walls and other parts for quite a while. Rich mixtures when cold tend to wash oil away . It take a lot of idling to warm an engine up to temp. Whatever methods you use the car around the engine will probably fall apart first.
 


Intuit

3000 Post Club
Messages
3,650
Likes
2,255
Location
South West Ohio
After changing the oil or letting it sit for two weeks, I'd crank-up the engine and get a brief second of clatter in the valve train. (hydraulic roller lifters)

To avoid this clatter:
1) Hold accelerator at 100%.
2) Begin cranking the engine. (no more than ten seconds at time - 30 total seconds should be more than enough)
3) After ten seconds or so of cranking, release the accelerator and let it start.

Holding the accelerator at 100% before and during the crank, tells the computer to turn off the injectors so it won't start. I now perform the same procedure with all of my vehicles, including motorcycle. This puts the oil where it needs to be, using very low RPMs, before starting it.

This observation suggests that a cold engine will suffer less damage when initially operated at low-RPM for a period.

================

My prior vehicle's engine has an Idle Air Control Solenoid.
http://www.feoa.net/threads/cleaning-the-iac-solenoid.71349/

The valve got stiff over time as it got carboned-up. Sometimes I'd start it up cold and it would idle ~800RPM (where it was on shutdown,) for a bit before gradually idling up to where it should be. The electronically controlled engine was perfectly happy idling at 800RPM even though it was cold. Carburetor distributor engines probably had to idle high just to stay running, but don't believe that is the case with SEFI EDIS engines. The chief reason for high idle with modern systems has to do with the catalytic converter... emissions in other words. The rich fuel mixture and hot exhaust helps get them up to a temperature where they'll begin to catalyze the exhaust. Wikipedia suggests a temp of 800F for efficient operation. However auto manufacturers, as a result of ruined catalytic converters, began flashing the check engine light when a chronic misfire condition is detected. (other emissions problems just turn the light on, but not necessarily flash it) The unburned fuel would overheat and rapidly kill them. Older Oxygen sensors also had to rely on the exhaust to heat them before becoming functional.

Bottom line, high idle wasn't engineered to prevent oil-dilution and for modern vehicles, isn't about preventing a stall. It's about emissions.

Of course, talking about diesel and/or older engine control systems, single digit and negative temperatures, changes the factors a bit. No one is talking about cranking it, immediately putting into gear and gunning it, just as no one is talking about starting it and letting it sit until thermostat-open and/or fan-on. Unrelated anecdote, the oxygen sensor on my prior vehicle had (somewhere between 230-290k on it with,) four wires self-heated, but had to replace it to resolve a spark-knock under load while cold issue. Suspected a failed heater.
 


neeqness

1000 Post Club
Messages
1,398
Likes
166
Location
LA
After changing the oil or letting it sit for two weeks, I'd crank-up the engine and get a brief second of clatter in the valve train. (hydraulic roller lifters)

To avoid this clatter:
1) Hold accelerator at 100%.
2) Begin cranking the engine. (no more than ten seconds at time - 30 total seconds should be more than enough)
3) After ten seconds or so of cranking, release the accelerator and let it start.

Holding the accelerator at 100% before and during the crank, tells the computer to turn off the injectors so it won't start. I now perform the same procedure with all of my vehicles, including motorcycle. This puts the oil where it needs to be, using very low RPMs, before starting it.

This observation suggests that a cold engine will suffer less damage when initially operated at low-RPM for a period.

================

My prior vehicle's engine has an Idle Air Control Solenoid.
http://www.feoa.net/threads/cleaning-the-iac-solenoid.71349/

The valve got stiff over time as it got carboned-up. Sometimes I'd start it up cold and it would idle ~800RPM (where it was on shutdown,) for a bit before gradually idling up to where it should be. The electronically controlled engine was perfectly happy idling at 800RPM even though it was cold. Carburetor distributor engines probably had to idle high just to stay running, but don't believe that is the case with SEFI EDIS engines. The chief reason for high idle with modern systems has to do with the catalytic converter... emissions in other words. The rich fuel mixture and hot exhaust helps get them up to a temperature where they'll begin to catalyze the exhaust. Wikipedia suggests a temp of 800F for efficient operation. However auto manufacturers, as a result of ruined catalytic converters, began flashing the check engine light when a chronic misfire condition is detected. (other emissions problems just turn the light on, but not necessarily flash it) The unburned fuel would overheat and rapidly kill them. Older Oxygen sensors also had to rely on the exhaust to heat them before becoming functional.

Bottom line, high idle wasn't engineered to prevent oil-dilution and for modern vehicles, isn't about preventing a stall. It's about emissions.

Of course, talking about diesel and/or older engine control systems, single digit and negative temperatures, changes the factors a bit. No one is talking about cranking it, immediately putting into gear and gunning it, just as no one is talking about starting it and letting it sit until thermostat-open and/or fan-on. Unrelated anecdote, the oxygen sensor on my prior vehicle had (somewhere between 230-290k on it with,) four wires self-heated, but had to replace it to resolve a spark-knock under load while cold issue. Suspected a failed heater.
Not sure if this was aimed at me, but just in case it was, I agree with you for the most part. I just didn't elaborate on the fuel mixtures with higher idling.

In all honesty it doesn't matter to me either way whether you idle or drive slow to warm up your car. My only issue was with people saying that idling caused more wear than driving slow. This is simply not true. If you want to save a bit of fuel by coasting and driving really careful until your car warms up that's fine. If you are careful enough, you won't cause a significant amount of additional wear as the difference is minimal.

Sent using Tapatalk
 


Intuit

3000 Post Club
Messages
3,650
Likes
2,255
Location
South West Ohio
Some people don't care and will impede morning traffic, mozying on up and eventually matching the speed of surrounding traffic. (this behavior is particularly annoying on long highway entrance ramps) I'm not one of those people; will make reasonable effort to match surrounding traffic without impeding them. This means I have to be on the accelerator within one or two minutes of leaving the driveway. Sometimes that means 3,000 RPM and a short 0-40 distance.
 


Messages
365
Likes
89
Location
-
^ They use the OEM sensor, since they access their data through the PCM, so they're as accurate as the factory sensor is. As good as any aftermarket gauge, I would say. Usually the "innacuracy" of factory dummy gauges is in the gauge, not the sensor.
 


Messages
118
Likes
13
Location
Las vegas
I don't generally let it warm up, but I have to drive carefully for about 1/2 mile to get out of my neighborhood anyway. This little bugger gets to operating temp quick.
Same here. I don't want to piss off my neighbors, so I drive slowly out of my development, maybe 1 mile. And by then it's up to temp by the digital gauge on the instrument cluster.
I have also found, that if I stop to go into a store, and I'm away for 1 hour, when I come back, the engine is still hot and I get heat right away.
I used to drive a Prius (piece of junk) it had a thermos that they pumped the hot coolant into when the engine was stopped. I don't think the Fiesta has this but it seems to hold heat better.
Maybe something is done to help potential auto on/off technology.
 


neeqness

1000 Post Club
Messages
1,398
Likes
166
Location
LA
I have also found, that if I stop to go into a store, and I'm away for 1 hour, when I come back, the engine is still hot and I get heat right away.
I used to drive a Prius (piece of junk) it had a thermos that they pumped the hot coolant into when the engine was stopped. I don't think the Fiesta has this but it seems to hold heat better.
Maybe something is done to help potential auto on/off technology.
This is true, however I found that the Fiesta motor also seems to overheat a bit easier than the average car. I was driving up a hill on the freeway (luckily not one I frequent) and not doing anything abnormal and the motor got hot all of a sudden. Glad I happened to look at the gauge...but the car did seem to start driving a little sluggish too which is probably what tipped me off to look at the gauge.

I was already at the top though and it was a long and fairly steep decline so I tried coasting down (in neutral) and turning on the heater (which should normally work faster at freeway speeds than just stopping) but none of that seemed to work and I didnt want to coast with the engine off so I pulled over to the shoulder and stopped. I didn't time it but it took waaayyyy longer than any car I've ever used before to cool down. It actually worried me a bit but thankfully i haven't had any problems since.

I've also seen my car stay fairly warm after sitting for several hours. This was the only time I've ever seen it overheat, but whatever it is that is in our cars that holds heat is probably the cause. Now that I am considering this, perhaps I may get an intercooler just for that. Our cars shouldn't stay warm so long...but maybe someone else with more knowledge can shed some more light on the subject.



Sent using Tapatalk
 


Messages
2
Likes
0
Location
Fort McMurray
...I suspect this current display shows 4 bars for a fairly wide range of degrees, which is simply unacceptable...
Living somewhere that get's pretty chilly (-40?C) I can confirm that you're correct. It gets to 4 bars long before it'll blow warm air out the vents - even with a block heater.
 


Messages
475
Likes
92
Location
Oak Harbor
I never let it warm up too much in the warmer months, but now that winter has arrived I let it sit for a minute or two. Nothing too substantial, but it's better than nothing I guess.
 


Intuit

3000 Post Club
Messages
3,650
Likes
2,255
Location
South West Ohio
Living somewhere that get's pretty chilly (-40?C) I can confirm that you're correct. It gets to 4 bars long before it'll blow warm air out the vents - even with a block heater.
Sounds like there's a need for a more substantial heater core design. Heater output is circumstantial. There won't be a direct correlation between intake, engine and output temps if the heater core's transfer capacity is insufficient. Air velocity and heating element contact surface area has a large impact on heat transfer. If air velocity were slowed, and the heating element's surface area increased, you may find more correlation between engine and output temperatures from the heater core. Even if the heating coils are at a semi-stable 100 degrees Celsius, 30C intake air is going to come out a lot warmer versus -30C intake air.

This is not at all to say that I disagree with your point though. I too would much prefer a digital readout over the logarithmic gauge.
 


Messages
2
Likes
0
Location
Fort McMurray
Sounds like there's a need for a more substantial heater core design.
All salient points for sure. In my experience so far, I don't feel like the heater core is inadequate. At steady state on the highway, I get pretty hot air after about 15 minutes but only takes about 5 minutes for the gauge to get to four bars. Agreed on the logarithmic scale.
 


Messages
315
Likes
87
Location
Weymouth
^ They use the OEM sensor, since they access their data through the PCM, so they're as accurate as the factory sensor is. As good as any aftermarket gauge, I would say. Usually the "innacuracy" of factory dummy gauges is in the gauge, not the sensor.
Correct, mostly all new vehicles are like this. my FoST would register up to temp with ECT @ 120. The only thing I'm not sure about is that the oil temp is accurate on a FiST. The FoST and FoRS are all inferred using an algorithm. It is very accurate though but does not actual use a sensor for oil temp, so adding something like an oil cooler will help with oil cooling but the only way to actually monitor it would be to add an oil temp sensor.
 




Top