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How many people warm up their Fiesta ST before driving?

How many people warm up their Fiesta ST before driving?

  • I don't

    Votes: 122 34.0%
  • I always do

    Votes: 131 36.5%
  • I do but only on really cold days

    Votes: 106 29.5%

  • Total voters
    359
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Already posted and debunked.
NO it wasn't debunked at all, there were people who had opinions on each side.

The conclusive argument I garnered is to warm it up if you needed to defrost the windows before driving off.
But if you don't need that, driving away immediately a long as you do so gently.
 


Intuit

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NO it wasn't debunked at all, there were people who had opinions on each side.

The conclusive argument I garnered is to warm it up if you needed to defrost the windows before driving off.
But if you don't need that, driving away immediately a long as you do so gently.
As I said, debunked.
Idling does not harm to your engine more than driving off cold.
 


neeqness

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All salient points for sure. In my experience so far, I don't feel like the heater core is inadequate. At steady state on the highway, I get pretty hot air after about 15 minutes but only takes about 5 minutes for the gauge to get to four bars. Agreed on the logarithmic scale.
What bothers me most is that the temperature gauge reads 4 bars the whole time. If the heater core were the issue, it wouldn't get hot enough in extreme situations at all. I think the issue is the gauge.

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Hijinx

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All salient points for sure. In my experience so far, I don't feel like the heater core is inadequate. At steady state on the highway, I get pretty hot air after about 15 minutes but only takes about 5 minutes for the gauge to get to four bars. Agreed on the logarithmic scale.
I just want to add that I typically have appreciable hot air after about 5 mins of driving. That's down to 20* weather or so, and I have a Mishimoto 160* thermostat. Yes, at 160* I have 4 bars.

Anyway, unless I have to defrost my windows, I hop in, start up, organize my personals, and get to driving. I once selected that I let my car warm up, but I've learned much since this thread was created. On startup the combustion chamber is relatively cold (doubly so when the weather is cold), and fuel has a little problem with evaporation. It doesn't evaporate well, and for it to burn it needs to be able to do so, quickly, before ignition or you'll run lean (because left over fuel is just hanging out instead of burning). So, basically, the ECU just dumps fuel to combat this issue. Herein lies the rub with letting your car sit idle for too long. Driving your car will warm it up more quickly. Excessive idling leads to cylinder washing and oil dilution. Cylinder washing is bad...if excessive, you literally wash the oil from the cylinder walls which can lead to bad rings and loss of compression.

So, what is considered excessive idling? I'm not sure, but stop letting your car 'warm up' for 15 minutes every morning. Idling is the hardest job (next to transient operations) for an ECU as it is, even when the car is warm. De-ice and de-fog if needed, then get on the road.
 


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In These States It's Actually Illegal to Warm Up Your Car
By Cory Stieg/Dec 24, 2016

Ahh, 'tis the season of nightmare-ish polar vortexes sweeping the nation right and left. The only thing worse than having to go outside in this type of weather is having to enter a freezing cold car. You might be tempted to turn on your vehicle and let it get nice and cozy before you hop in, but this is actually illegal in many states, according to Men's Health.

It doesn't even matter how long your car is running, most states consider idling an automatic misdemeanor. Even cars that have an automatic start feature are against the law in some states, according to Lifewire. (Hey, don't kill the messenger.)

The penalties vary from state to state. In Washington D.C., for example, you can get fined $5,000 if your car is sitting around for just three minutes. Other states are more lenient, like Pennsylvania, where the law states you can idle for 20 minutes when the temperature is below 40?.

You can check your own state's laws on the EPA's website, but here are the states that don't allow you to let your car idle (it's most of them):

Arizona
California
Colorado
Connecticut
Delaware
District of Columbia
Georgia
Hawaii
Illinois
Louisiana
Maine
Maryland
Massachusetts
Minnesota
Missouri
Nevada
New Hampshire
New Jersey
New York
Ohio
Oregon
Pennsylvania
Rhode Island
South Carolina
Texas
Utah
Vermont
Virginia
Washington
Wisconsin
Wyoming

This isn't just lawmakers' way of messing with you, by the way. It's actually meant to help the environment! Another weird overlooked law in many states: You have to scrape all the ice and snow off your car, otherwise you'll get fined for distracted driving. So, when you trek outside to deal with the latest blizzard after math, remember that you're helping your fellow drivers and the planet! It might just warm your heart enough to make your car defrost.
 


Intuit

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I suspect that is also false.

It is however illegal to leave your vehicle running unoccupied. This has nothing to do with "environmental" regulations or similar. It's merely a result of insurance and police getting tired of hearing and dealing with the "car theft while warming up" problem.

My father was ticketed for that many eons ago.
 


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Many years ago Hertz stated a service were they promised to have your rental car warmed up and ready for you when you came to pick it up.
The employees simply started all the cars up in the morning, and let them run all day, waiting for a customer. California got upset about this and passed a law forbidding it for environmental reasons.
But Hertz's motivation behind the deal was that the gas tank was full prior to starting your car, thus it burned up gas, which Hetrtz charged you $10 per gallon for.
 


neeqness

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I suspect that is also false.

It is however illegal to leave your vehicle running unoccupied. This has nothing to do with "environmental" regulations or similar. It's merely a result of insurance and police getting tired of hearing and dealing with the "car theft while warming up" problem.

My father was ticketed for that many eons ago.
Agreed.

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neeqness

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It seems like people will believe any report they read in the news. But if you really keep track, you find there is a report saying nearly everything is good or bad for whatever. Yes, really. I mean there are reports that fruit and veggies are bad for you and smoking a cigarette once in awhile is good for you. People will believe what they want ultimately whether it's true or not.

Some of the younger folks might not really know better since they may not have seen old cars with carburetors lasting for hundreds of thousands of miles...back when warming up the car was a norm. But we didn't do it just because of the carburetor like that article wants you to think. We did it for other reasons too. Idling did not cause any damage.

You idle at stop lights, in traffic, etc. when the engine is warm. No alarms for that. Idling is not so bad as they want you to think. If you want to save gas by not idling, that's fine but if you do idle, you are not causing any excessive wear to your engine. Period.

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Sekred

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My 2 cents worth. It is not so much the idling that causes an increase in wear but the time it takes the engine to reach operating temperature. When I say wear I am referring to cylinder bore and piston ring wear. These are the components that wear most during cold start up. letting your engine idle excessively simply means it is going to take longer to reach operating temperature.
Also I wondering about GDI engines and cold start up when AFR are very rich, mainly wetting of the cylinder walls which can wash the oil out of the cross hatching and how this may affect wear long term especially considering this engine uses aluminium bores.
 


AzNightmare

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During winter, I warm up my car until my accessport reads my oil temp is 20?C (68?F).
Not sure if that is considered excessive, and no particular reason why I wait for that number.

If it's cold in the morning in the negatives, it can be like a 5 min wait though..
 


neeqness

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My 2 cents worth. It is not so much the idling that causes an increase in wear but the time it takes the engine to reach operating temperature. When I say wear I am referring to cylinder bore and piston ring wear. These are the components that wear most during cold start up. letting your engine idle excessively simply means it is going to take longer to reach operating temperature.
Also I wondering about GDI engines and cold start up when AFR are very rich, mainly wetting of the cylinder walls which can wash the oil out of the cross hatching and how this may affect wear long term especially considering this engine uses aluminium bores.
The time it takes to warm up is quicker now than it was in the past. Previous engines without ecus didn't idle at higher revs when cold. Yet somehow they didn't receive any extra wear for it.

Secondly, warming up your car is relatively fast even without high revs except in the most extreme climates. Any "damage" occurring at idle will occur at higher revs also and even worse when driving because there is more stress on the motor.

Finally, keep in mind that our ecu is already programmed to idle at higher revs when the engine is cold anyway. This is equivalent to the best slow driving carefully that you could possibly ever do without the added stress on the engine.

Again, it doesn't matter to me whether you idle or not when you warm up your car. It's your car. Do as you see fit. I occassionally do not even warm-up mine properly myself when in a hurry. To me ultimately, the difference is negligible either way (if you are driving really careful).

But saying that idling to warmup your car causes more damage than driving slow is simply not true.

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Hijinx

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The time it takes to warm up is quicker now than it was in the past. Previous engines without ecus didn't idle at higher revs when cold. Yet somehow they didn't receive any extra wear for it.

Secondly, warming up your car is relatively fast even without high revs except in the most extreme climates. Any "damage" occurring at idle will occur at higher revs also and even worse when driving because there is more stress on the motor.

Finally, keep in mind that our ecu is already programmed to idle at higher revs when the engine is cold anyway. This is equivalent to the best slow driving carefully that you could possibly ever do without the added stress on the engine.

Again, it doesn't matter to me whether you idle or not when you warm up your car. It's your car. Do as you see fit. I occassionally do not even warm-up mine properly myself when in a hurry. To me ultimately, the difference is negligible either way (if you are driving really careful).

But saying that idling to warmup your car causes more damage than driving slow is simply not true.

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To your first point: carbureted engines didn't dump extra fuel on warm up because they didnt have an ECU to monitor fuel deliver. Hence, no washing or oil dilution.

To your second point: you're not taking load into account when you say this. Load is very low during idle and still different than actually driving. With a higher load in driving fuel delivery is changed. Instead of dumping fuel you can actually use it. You're wrong on this point because there's actually tables specific to idling, so a high rev idle is NOT the same as driving. While the load is low in idle, there's LESS stress on the engine when driving as opposed to idling because idling is inefficient. During idle, lots of fuel is used, timing is high and constantly changing, no air is moving across the radiator, oil pressure is lower, lots of heat is created...it's the opposite of extremes relative to WOT. Do some research on EFI and you'll see that I'm not making this up.


Some Guy On The Internet
 


Intuit

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http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/search/Carburetor+Choke+Kits/N1073/C0261.oap
Heard of a "choke"? They were common several decades ago. Today, many may recall them from tiny 2-cycle engines. Basically that was a manual method for enriching fuel mixture. That was automated in modern carburetor designs.

The reason I chose the year for my motorcycle, was because that was the year they eliminated the carburetor. Last thing I wanted to have to do is to tweak or rebuild one of those things LoL...
 


Hijinx

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http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/search/Carburetor+Choke+Kits/N1073/C0261.oap
Heard of a "choke"? They were common several decades ago. Today, many may recall them from tiny 2-cycle engines. Basically that was a manual method for enriching fuel mixture. That was automated in modern carburetor designs.

The reason I chose the year for my motorcycle, was because that was the year they eliminated the carburetor. Last thing I wanted to have to do is to tweak or rebuild one of those things LoL...
Admittedly, Ive acquired more knowledge about EFI than carburation. So, while I'm aware of what a choke valve is, I failed to consider it when writing my previous response.


Some Guy On The Internet
 


neeqness

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Admittedly, Ive acquired more knowledge about EFI than carburation. So, while I'm aware of what a choke valve is, I failed to consider it when writing my previous response.


Some Guy On The Internet
Exactly because what you said about earlier engines is entirely untrue. You can't start a cold carburetor engine without adjusting the choke valve. Fuel air mixture (which is the carburetors sole purpose) has very little to do with the oil and how well lubricated the engine is. The only exception is for motors that require oil mixed in with fuel, but none of these motors are used in automobiles.

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Hijinx

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Exactly because what you said about earlier engines is entirely untrue. You can't start a cold carburetor engine without adjusting the choke valve. Fuel air mixture (which is the carburetors sole purpose) has very little to do with the oil and how well lubricated the engine is. The only exception is for motors that require oil mixed in with fuel, but none of these motors are used in automobiles (except diesel which is really a whole different ball of wax).

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I was thinking about rejetting, but then thought that was a ridiculous thought. Everyone going around every winter rejetting would be ludicrous. I knew I was missing something. Yep, I was wrong and I should have just avoided commenting on the topic since I didn't have the logic. But, I've got knowledge to put in the bank now and more to learn.


Some Guy On The Internet
 


Sekred

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The time it takes to warm up is quicker now than it was in the past. Previous engines without ecus didn't idle at higher revs when cold. Yet somehow they didn't receive any extra wear for it.

Secondly, warming up your car is relatively fast even without high revs except in the most extreme climates. Any "damage" occurring at idle will occur at higher revs also and even worse when driving because there is more stress on the motor.

Finally, keep in mind that our ecu is already programmed to idle at higher revs when the engine is cold anyway. This is equivalent to the best slow driving carefully that you could possibly ever do without the added stress on the engine.

Again, it doesn't matter to me whether you idle or not when you warm up your car. It's your car. Do as you see fit. I occassionally do not even warm-up mine properly myself when in a hurry. To me ultimately, the difference is negligible either way (if you are driving really careful).

But saying that idling to warmup your car causes more damage than driving slow is simply not true.

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Your engine is going to reach operating temperature a lot quicker if you drive it rather than let it idle. It simply comes down to how much load is on the engine. Load creates heat. A engine is designed to work. Sure the ECU raises the idle speed for a number of reason, the main one is so the CAT reaches light-up temperature faster so it will function. The majority of engine wear occurs around the first 3-6 minutes of operation.
I have strip a couple of gasoline engines over the years where the thermostate has been removed. These engines are usually show very high piston and bore wear because of over cooling, quire often very uneven bore wear between the cylinders.
 


Intuit

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Usually the thermostats are removed as a way of compensating for a cooling problem... the engine was running hot. (or they were racing it) The damage may have been caused then. (or under the extreme duress of high-RPM maximum cylinder-pressure racing)

Friction creates heat. More explosions create heat. I just sold my vehicle with a >327k old engine that spent most of it's life being overcooled** (and idled before driving) and with over 300k, compression tested at 90% of the book's 210 PSI; consumed much <1qt per 3-4,000 miles on the manufacturer spec weight 5W-30 Castrol non-synthetic oil. (mixing up to 50% 10w-30 for the Summer months because the valve train was quieter)

When parts expand, tolerances tighten, and in the absence of optimal lubrication, wear can increase. I'd wager, an engine that spends most of it's life operating at 160F temperatures is going to outlast one that spends most of it's life operating at 220F. But the lower operating temperatures are bad for emissions, some emissions components. For most engine + oil combinations, optimal lubrication occurs within a narrow temperature range. Engines with advanced wear often benefit from thicker oil. Heavier oil is typically better for higher temperatures. Thinner oil is typically better for colder temperatures. A louder engine on startup means go thinner. A louder engine while HOT means go thicker.

The best thing one can do to lower friction and maximize the life of the rings, is to keep the oil clean. That means changing the filter and oil every three to seven thousand miles; more or less depending on visual inspection and personal preferences.

** Over-cooling was a result of a bad thermostat bypass valve, rather than racing or overheating.
 




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