• Sign Up! To view all forums and unlock additional cool features

    Welcome to the #1 Fiesta ST Forum and Fiesta ST community dedicated to Fiesta ST owners and enthusiasts. Register for an account, it's free and it's easy, so don't hesitate to join the Fiesta ST Forum today!


Calculating E30 and other Ethanol mixes. Math and derivation

Messages
16
Likes
3
Location
DC
#1
I decided to make a short post on how to do your own calculation for making E30 or other Ethanol mixes (skip to the end if you just want the simplified equations).

I was trying to be lazy and find an equation online but couldn't seem to find anything other than calculators so i decided to figure out the equation myself. Being a scientist who works with dilutions and making chemical mixes all the time, I was not satisfied just by using an online calculator--I had to figure it out myself. I hope someone finds this useful or at least interesting.

Lets start with one of the most commonly used equations in laboratory science : V1*C1=V2*C2
(Volume 1 * concentration1 = volume2*concentration 2)

Now this is all we would need and the calculation would be super simple.. but there is 10% ethanol in the gas you are diluting your E85 with so it makes it a little more difficult.
Lets take the previous equation and modify it a little bit to fit better with what we are doing. Replacing C1 with %Ethanol of your E85 (E85%), V1 with the amount of ethanol you are to add (Ev), C2 with your desired ethanol percent (%E_final), and V2 with the total volume you are trying to make (Fv).

variables so far:
%E85 = actual % ethanol of the E85
Ev = amount of E85 to add
%E_final = desired final ethanol %
Fv = final volume you are trying to make

New equation = %E85*Ev = %E_final*Fv

But like i said earlier, you have to take into account the 10% Ethanol in the gas you are diluting with. So the equation should be modified to contain the ethanol percent in gas (%Egas) and the volume of gas you are to add (Gv).

New equation = %E85*Ev + %Egas*Gv = %E_final*Fv

As it is now, this equation is impossible to solve because Ev and Gv are related but you cant figure one variable out without figuring the other one out. So you need to find the relationship between the two--and that is actually very simple if you realize that the volume of E85 + the volume of Gas = your final volume.
So Ev + Gv = Fv
Rearranging this equation you get Gv = Fv - Ev ( Gas volume = Final volume - Ethanol volume)

Now take this equation and plug it back into the original equation substitutin (Fv - Ev) for Gv because Gv = Fv - Ev
%E85*Ev + %Egas*(Fv - Ev) = %E_final*Fv

Now you have everything you need to solve the equation for the one unknown variable: how much E85 to add (Ev). But lets simplify the equation slightly to make it simpler for future use:
%E85*Ev + %Egas*(Fv - Ev) = %E_final*Fv (multiply parentheses)
%E85*Ev + %Egas*Fv - %Egas*Ev = %E_final*Fv (combine your two Ev values %E85*Ev - %Egas*Ev)
(%E85 - %Egas)*Ev + %Egas*Fv = %E_final*Fv (subtract %Egas*Fv)
(%E85 - %Egas)*Ev = %E_final*Fv - %Egas*Fv (divide by (%E85 - %Egas))
Ev = [%E_final*Fv - %Egas*Fv]/[%E85 - %Egas] (pull out Fv from the numerator)
Ev = [Fv(%E_final - %Egas)]/[%E85 - %Egas]

Thats it! So now lets do a typical example using typical percentages.
Your %E85 ended up actually being 85% -- %E85 = 85
Typically ethanol in gas is 10% -- %Egas = 10
desired Final ethanol percent is 30% -- %E_final = 30
lets say you want to make 13 gallons of the E30 -- Fv = 13
Ev = 13(30 - 10)/(85 - 10)
Ev = 3.47 galons of E85
And of course the amount of gas to add is 13 - 3.47 = 9.53

If you are always running E30 and your gas is always assumed to be 10% Ethanol you can simplify the equation further to
Ev = 20*Fv/(%E85 - 10)

And if you are too lazy to actually measure your E85% you can further simplify the equation to
Ev = 20*Fv/75

Now if you already have 2 gallons of regular gas in your tank and want to fill your 13 gallon tank with E30:
Just subtract 2 gallons of gas from the calculated regular gas to add:
Ev = 3.47 gallons
add 3.47 gallons of E85 and 11 gallons of gas (13 - 2)
If your gas tank is only 13 gallons i would recommend doing the calculations for a little bit less--maybe 12.5 gallons. Or in the fiestas' case: our tank is 12.4 (i think) so i wouldn't calculate for more than 12. You don't want to add one component then go to add the other and your tank is actually full before you can add all you need.

Use your Cobb AP to determine the Percentage of gas in your tank and multiply it by the total tank size.
% gas in your tank = 74
.74*12.4 = 9.176 gallons are currently in your tank

This all works for gallons or liters (or any other volume measurement) as long as you keep the units consistent in the equation.


In summary (also TLDR)

To make E30:
Volume of E85 to add = 20*desired final volume / (Actual E85% - 10 )
Volume of Gas to add = desired volume - volume of E85 to add

To make E40:
Volume of E85 to add = 30*desired final volume / (Actual E85% - 10 )
same as above

To make any other E mix:
Replace the first number in above equations with desired % - 10
 


HBEcoBeaST

Active member
Messages
790
Likes
417
Location
Huntington Beach
#3
Thanks for the maths. I'm glad my Stratified tune has some wiggle room as I kind of wing it erring on the side of too much e85.

If someone could make a 'bolt on' ethanol sensor, gauge and mount that would be $$$

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 


koozy

3000 Post Club
Messages
3,209
Likes
1,889
Location
Los Angeles, CA, USA
#4
DHM was the only company that offered a bolt on e85 content analyzer gauge kit for the FiST. Another recent company was in the works, but has been silent for ~3 months about it now. The reality is there are several how-to's with parts lists and photos providing insight on how to go about to putting one together. It's really not that complicated between 2 popular gauge options, Zeitronix or Innovate.
 


OP
P
Messages
16
Likes
3
Location
DC
Thread Starter #5
A gauge is unnecessary in my opinion. Just put the right amount of E85 and gas in your tank every time and you should be right at 30% all the time.

What you do need is one of those little tube gauges that you put the E85 in with water to show you the actual E% in your E85 (But if you don't care about a little variation, that is also unnecessary). Only like 20$ off amazon.

Once you have the that just subtract 10 from it and divide 20*desired amount by that number. Easy

Even if the % in your tank was off by a little bit before, when you add more of e85 and gas at the right ratio, it will bring your tank % closer to 30 than it was before.

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk
 


Ford ST

2000 Post Club
Messages
2,921
Likes
3,053
Location
Pleasant Garden
#6
A gauge is unnecessary in my opinion. Just put the right amount of E85 and gas in your tank every time and you should be right at 30% all the time.

What you do need is one of those little tube gauges that you put the E85 in with water to show you the actual E% in your E85 (But if you don't care about a little variation, that is also unnecessary). Only like 20$ off amazon.

Once you have the that just subtract 10 from it and divide 20*desired amount by that number. Easy

Even if the % in your tank was off by a little bit before, when you add more of e85 and gas at the right ratio, it will bring your tank % closer to 30 than it was before.

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk
Good job on this one. I will never need it, because they don't sell E85 where I live. They just sell it as Flex Fuel, and the content is somewhere between 51 and 83% ethanol no guarantee. I guess if I was crazy I could pump into a large container take it home measure the ethanol content, and then use your formula to figure it out. I will just stick with 93 octane gas.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk
 


Woods247

2000 Post Club
Messages
2,527
Likes
4,396
Location
Atl
#7
A gauge is unnecessary in my opinion. Just put the right amount of E85 and gas in your tank every time and you should be right at 30% all the time.

What you do need is one of those little tube gauges that you put the E85 in with water to show you the actual E% in your E85 (But if you don't care about a little variation, that is also unnecessary). Only like 20$ off amazon.

Once you have the that just subtract 10 from it and divide 20*desired amount by that number. Easy

Even if the % in your tank was off by a little bit before, when you add more of e85 and gas at the right ratio, it will bring your tank % closer to 30 than it was before.

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk
Of course it isn't necessary. It would be a luxury just like power windows.
 


HardBoiledEgg

1000 Post Club
Messages
1,076
Likes
516
Location
Fontana
#8
This math is cool and all but not everyone gets the full 100% E85 from the pump all year around
 


OP
P
Messages
16
Likes
3
Location
DC
Thread Starter #9
This math is cool and all but not everyone gets the full 100% E85 from the pump all year around
Do you mean E85 isn't always available or that it varies a lot throughout the year? If it is the latter, how much can it vary? These equations will work with any variation of E85 as long as you can still measure it with one of the tube thingies.

Although if your actual pump E85 % is super low, it may defeat the purpose of using it as the other fraction of it is not premium gas. Unless you don't have access to 93 then it may still be worth it--but you can play around with an octane calculator to see based on your situation.

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk
 


HBEcoBeaST

Active member
Messages
790
Likes
417
Location
Huntington Beach
#10
My e85 pumps state ethanol content can vary between 50something-85%.... And the Chevron regular gas says it can have up to 10%(or 15%?) ethanol. My normal station is good but I get weary while on the road so I overfill e85 to be safe. Closer to 4 gallons when my empty light turns on.

A gauge would be a piece of mind. Too bad the AP can't be used for this.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 


HBEcoBeaST

Active member
Messages
790
Likes
417
Location
Huntington Beach
#12
I like my gauge because it works and eliminates any doubt, period. If I’m going to be pushing 32lbs. Of boost and I want to be certain about my fuel content.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Smart guy [emoji121]️

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 


koozy

3000 Post Club
Messages
3,209
Likes
1,889
Location
Los Angeles, CA, USA
#13
I also don't have to think twice about where I get e85, I'm not tied to one station like most do. I have the freedom to visit any station with e85 and let the gauge confirm if I can lay my foot to the metal or not.

If anyone is interested in putting a kit together, here's my how-to on my 2014. IIRC, 2016MY+ would have different fuel hose lengths for the most part and maybe a few minor things. It's performed flawlessly for the last ~3 years.

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/3074-koozy-s-ST?p=63311&viewfull=1#post63311
 


OP
P
Messages
16
Likes
3
Location
DC
Thread Starter #14
I also don't have to think twice about where I get e85, I'm not tied to one station like most do. I have the freedom to visit any station with e85 and let the gauge confirm if I can lay my foot to the metal or not.

If anyone is interested in putting a kit together, here's my how-to on my 2014. IIRC, 2016MY+ would have different fuel hose lengths for the most part and maybe a few minor things. It's performed flawlessly for the last ~3 years.

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/3074-koozy-s-ST?p=63311&viewfull=1#post63311
Beautifully done. Having one would be ideal, and it does look really nice in the glove box like that.

What turbo are you using to push 32 lbs?

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk
 


koozy

3000 Post Club
Messages
3,209
Likes
1,889
Location
Los Angeles, CA, USA
#17
It's all good. I appreciate the time and effort Prixlyst has gone through to think it through and share his work, it's this creative passion that drives enthusiasm in the platform. There's certainly use for it, however I don't think it's fair to downplay the effectiveness and usefulness of an actual gauge. I don't really use calculators, after mixing fuel and the pumps numerous times I have a good idea of how many gallons I need to mix between pumps (91oct and e85) and use the gauge to confirm I'm safe.
 


Truth in Ruin

1000 Post Club
Messages
1,177
Likes
955
Location
Lincoln
#18
It's all good. I appreciate the time and effort Prixlyst has gone through to think it through and share his work, it's this creative passion that drives enthusiasm in the platform. There's certainly use for it, however I don't think it's fair to downplay the effectiveness and usefulness of an actual gauge. I don't really use calculators, after mixing fuel and the pumps numerous times I have a good idea of how many gallons I need to mix between pumps (91oct and e85) and use the gauge to confirm I'm safe.
+1

I wished we lived closer; I’d like to see what the GTX2860R is like, especially on ethanol.
 


alexrex20

1000 Post Club
Messages
1,472
Likes
613
Location
Spring
#19
Wtf that was supposed to be the easy way? Lol

I wait till I'm at a 1/4 tank or less, then I put in 3 gallons of E85 then round up to the next whole dollar. Then I top off the rest with 93. My ltft stays at +/- 5%.

If I really, really ran it down to e, then I will put in at least four gallons of E85. Y'all make it way too hard.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 


Ford ST

2000 Post Club
Messages
2,921
Likes
3,053
Location
Pleasant Garden
#20
Wtf that was supposed to be the easy way? Lol

I wait till I'm at a 1/4 tank or less, then I put in 3 gallons of E85 then round up to the next whole dollar. Then I top off the rest with 93. My ltft stays at +/- 5%.

If I really, really ran it down to e, then I will put in at least four gallons of E85. Y'all make it way too hard.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
It's not that hard at all, but I like math. It's a nice formula.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk
 


Similar threads



Top