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2nd gear departing from a stop?

Jerickson88

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#41
If it’s a down hill, sure. Flat and hills, no way. Even in bumper to bumper I leave enough space to Creep without making a dozen starts and stops.
 


Intuit

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#42
In stop-and-go traffic I prefer 2nd. I'm much smoother with it than 1st. I will only use 1st if I came to a COMPLETE stop.
Wow, your stop-and-go traffic must be fast! [confused]

I'd have to either lug the engine below 8/900 RPM, slip the clutch, or maintain larger gaps to maintain second.

Previous vehicle was a five speed and I would be happy to have a big-rig I could creep with. The gaps had to be so large that people behind would get annoyed until enough time went by for them to realize the benefit of gapping. Then you had more issues with folks "cutting" into the gap, which somewhat defeats the purpose of gapping. It's much less of an issue/annoyance with this six gear transmission. Much smaller gaps are necessary.
 


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#43
FWIW I know people who start in 2nd gear frequently, never rev match either and have not had a single issue with their clutch or transmission. They look at me like I'm weird for constantly rev matching and always starting in first no matter what. My cousin in particular drives like this and he has over 100k miles on his original clutch, G35. It's impossible for me to tell him he's doing it wrong with those results. I think a lot of us tend to exaggerate the potential for clutch wear and emphasize techniques that the average driver just don't use and do fine without.

Personally, I'm still fairly new to manuals so I'm definitely no expert. So my question would be, how much time is spent slipping the clutch when starting in first and then shifting to 2nd, total. Vs just starting in 2nd and then shifting into gears that don't require any slipping from there? I imagine there wouldn't be much difference, but correct me if I'm wrong.
 


OP
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Thread Starter #44
Starting in second is pretty hard.
Perhaps because I wanted a bit more aggressive first gear acceleration, without needing to press the throttle down too much.
But if done well timed, I can keep the needle between 1 and 2k rpm, and the clutch slips less than 2,5 seconds.
When starting from first, the clutch slips about 1-1,5 seconds, and from first to second it slips about 1/3rd to 1/2 of a second.

Second gear is slightly too tall for starting this vehicle in a good manner (plus, the risk of releasing the clutch too quickly, stalling, etc...).

Overall, starting in second gear is possible, and with some training it's even doable.
However, considering the time the clutch takes to fully grab, in traffic, you'd prefer to use 1st gear instead; even if 1st gear is a little slow.
For this reason I wished for 20% taller gears overall.
It would make it a lot easier driving around in the parking lot in 1st gear (2nd gear is too high for doing 10MPH or less), and highway RPM would be much better tuned.
I would also give the engine either a higher idle, or a little more power at idle. It's still running rough in first or second gear engaged while idling.

I've received quite some criticism on this forum about speaking my opinion, but I begin to see that it's mostly from those who aim to race the car; or look at it from a performance perspective; while I look at it from a commuter's perspective.
The demand of a commuter vehicle is totally different than a performance vehicle; and seeing a vehicle as if it was a race car, one would tune it different, than when it's a commuter car.

If you ask me,
My personal opinion is that this is not a race car; but more a commuter.
A fun commuter, which you can take out on the track, but might lose sorely on anything but a go-kart track, to someone having a larger car, with more HP.

Truth is, this car's gears are tuned neither for the track, nor as a commuter, and departing from 2nd gear isn't recommended, even after getting the hang of things; it's still better to depart from the slow 1st gear.
 


Last edited:

Quisp

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#45
Starting in second is pretty hard.
Perhaps because I wanted a bit more aggressive first gear acceleration, without needing to press the pedal down too much.
But if done well timed, I can keep the needle between 1 and 2k rpm, and the clutch slips about 2,5-3 seconds.
When starting from first, the clutch slips about 1-1,5 seconds, and from first to second it slips about 1/3rd to 1/2 of a second.

Second gear is slightly too tall for starting this vehicle in a good manner (plus, the risk of releasing the clutch too quickly, stalling, etc...).

Overall, starting in second gear is possible, and with some training it's even doable.
However, considering the time the clutch takes to fully grab, in traffic, you'd prefer to use 1st gear instead; even if 1st gear is a little slow.
For this reason I wished for 20% taller gears overall.
It would make it a lot easier driving around in the parking lot in 1st gear (2nd gear is too high for doing 10MPH or less), and highway RPM would be much better tuned.

I've received quite some criticism on this forum about speaking my opinion, but I begin to see that it's mostly from those who aim to race the car; or look at it from a performance perspective; while I look at it from a commuter's perspective.
The demand of a commuter vehicle is totally different than a performance vehicle; and seeing a vehicle as if it was a race car, one would tune it different, than when it's a commuter car.

If you ask me,
My personal opinion is that this is not a race car; but more a commuter.
A fun commuter, which you can take out on the track, but might lose sorely on anything but a go-kart track, to someone having a larger car, with more HP.

Truth is, this car's gears are tuned neither for the track, nor as a commuter, and departing from 2nd gear isn't recommended, even after getting the hang of things; it's still better to depart from the slow 1st gear.
Check out YouTube videos of how a Fist does against larger more powerful cars on big tracks.
 


Quisp

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#46
Check out YouTube videos of how a Fist does against larger more powerful cars on big tracks.
So at what rpm is this engine at it's most efficient state ? Mine makes roughly 270 hp and get 30 mpg highway. What more could be obtained ?
 


OP
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Thread Starter #47
Check out YouTube videos of how a Fist does against larger more powerful cars on big tracks.
It does perform quite well, especially when tuned, with a stage 3/4 kit or so.
But stock?
I've seen it pass, and get passed by a lot of cars.
 


Quisp

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#48
It does perform quite well, especially when tuned, with a stage 3/4 kit or so.
But stock?
I've seen it pass, and get passed by a lot of cars.
What's a stage 4 kit ? Also at what rpm is this engine most efficient ?
 


OP
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Thread Starter #49
What's a stage 4 kit ? Also at what rpm is this engine most efficient ?
Google it. Stage 4 is ran on a few cars, they make supposedly 350+BHP.
Efficient in what way? MPG or acceleration?
If it's MPG, your engine will be most efficient in 6th gear, and as low as your RPMs will go without lugging the car. (I guess between 1500-1750RPM when cruising).
Under load (acceleration), anywhere from 2-4k RPM (see torque graph).
Under heavy load (pedal to the metal acceleration), ~5k RPM (or 6k) to redline.

 


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#51
Google it. Stage 4 is ran on a few cars, they make supposedly 350+BHP.
Efficient in what way? MPG or acceleration?
If it's MPG, your engine will be most efficient in 6th gear, and as low as your RPMs will go without lugging the car. (I guess between 1500-1750RPM when cruising).
Under load (acceleration), anywhere from 2-4k RPM (see torque graph).
Under heavy load (pedal to the metal acceleration), ~5k RPM (or 6k) to redline.

If I can't say what I want I won't have someone write it out for me... *this is and edit from my real opinion which I am apparently not entitled to*
 


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jmrtsus

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#52
It does perform quite well, especially when tuned, with a stage 3/4 kit or so.
But stock?
I've seen it pass, and get passed by a lot of cars.
Tell us what outruns it in its class? Tell us what new car under $20K that even approaches the performance. Did you know that it could tie a stock 1968 Shelby GT500KR? You know, the "King of the Road". Not bad for the "least expensive sports car in the US" as it was billed in a major car magazine road test.

C/D TEST RESULTS: 1968 Shelby GT500 KR
Zero to 60 mph: 6.5 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 15.0 sec @ 95 mph
Top speed (estimated): 128 mph
Braking, 80-0 mph: 287ft (0.74 G)

M/T Road test 2014 ST
" Sixty mph in 6.4 seconds
quarter mile in 14.9 seconds
trap speed of 94.6 mph. "

So, sure many cars are faster, and many are slower on the streets.....but tell me what in its class will top it on a tight winding road?

The Fiesta ST was designed for one purpose.......to offer experienced drivers an inexpensive car for tearing up curvy roads and it excels at that job, transmission is superb, the engine is a jewel,handling and braking are outstanding. It also serves me fine on the HWY and in town. But buying a Greyhound and trying to make it a St. Bernard seems to me to be very expensive and counter productive.
I understand you are new to a manual transmission, but if you are slipping the clutch in 1st gear for 1-1 1/2 seconds you still have a long way to go to master shifting/driving a manual. Get some experience driving it correctly before trying to experiment. For an experienced driver the only acceptable clutch slipping would be starting from a dead stop on an incline. Any clutch slippage is clutch wear and clutch wear is not good for the wallet. Rev matching is not needed for routine driving. For economy and long clutch life you need to short shift 1st and 2nd then skip 3rd and 5th. Learn to correctly drive a manual first, it will take time and experience. Then learn heel and toe performance driving and come back to tell us how bad the transmission the reviewers and owners rave about is. It takes time to learn to drive a manual well, lots can make a car go with a manual but few are actually good at driving one for high performance. This could be the reason so many people are confused as to why you bought the ST, it seems to be far from what you want and can handle at this point. Keep practicing until you get to the point you do not consciously think about shifting it while doing it, it takes time to develop muscle memory and timing.
 


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#54
Tell us what outruns it in its class? Tell us what new car under $20K that even approaches the performance. Did you know that it could tie a stock 1968 Shelby GT500KR? You know, the "King of the Road". Not bad for the "least expensive sports car in the US" as it was billed in a major car magazine road test.

C/D TEST RESULTS: 1968 Shelby GT500 KR
Zero to 60 mph: 6.5 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 15.0 sec @ 95 mph
Top speed (estimated): 128 mph
Braking, 80-0 mph: 287ft (0.74 G)

M/T Road test 2014 ST
" Sixty mph in 6.4 seconds
quarter mile in 14.9 seconds
trap speed of 94.6 mph. "

So, sure many cars are faster, and many are slower on the streets.....but tell me what in its class will top it on a tight winding road?

The Fiesta ST was designed for one purpose.......to offer experienced drivers an inexpensive car for tearing up curvy roads and it excels at that job, transmission is superb, the engine is a jewel,handling and braking are outstanding. It also serves me fine on the HWY and in town. But buying a Greyhound and trying to make it a St. Bernard seems to me to be very expensive and counter productive.
I understand you are new to a manual transmission, but if you are slipping the clutch in 1st gear for 1-1 1/2 seconds you still have a long way to go to master shifting/driving a manual. Get some experience driving it correctly before trying to experiment. For an experienced driver the only acceptable clutch slipping would be starting from a dead stop on an incline. Any clutch slippage is clutch wear and clutch wear is not good for the wallet. Rev matching is not needed for routine driving. For economy and long clutch life you need to short shift 1st and 2nd then skip 3rd and 5th. Learn to correctly drive a manual first, it will take time and experience. Then learn heel and toe performance driving and come back to tell us how bad the transmission the reviewers and owners rave about is. It takes time to learn to drive a manual well, lots can make a car go with a manual but few are actually good at driving one for high performance. This could be the reason so many people are confused as to why you bought the ST, it seems to be far from what you want and can handle at this point. Keep practicing until you get to the point you do not consciously think about shifting it while doing it, it takes time to develop muscle memory and timing.
How do you shift into 2nd smoothly while maintaining your speed with 0 slip?

Noob question, but yeah I have to learn.
 


zanethan

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#55
How do you shift into 2nd smoothly while maintaining your speed with 0 slip?

Noob question, but yeah I have to learn.
This car is difficult to get a smooth 1-2 shift and I've bee driving manuals for 13 years now. I believe a portion of this is due to the turbo spool time (don't hold me to this though). I found that replacing the stock diverter valve with the DV+ helped tremendously.

Honestly, it comes down to practice. You have to "become one with the car" essentially. A good pair of driving shoes (I like converse's as they are narrow and snug) will help with pedal feel and connecting with the car. At least that's my experience. To this day if I drive with dress shoes I find that my shifts are much sloppier and my pedal work suffers.
 


danbfree

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#56
How do you shift into 2nd smoothly while maintaining your speed with 0 slip?

Noob question, but yeah I have to learn.
You have to realize a lot of guys on here are hard-core manual enthusiasts, and we can learn a lot from them... However, I'm 46 years old and learned to drive manual almost 30 years ago and only learned about throttle blipping and rev matching maybe 10 years ago... don't worry about some "clutch slip", it seems it's just a dirty sounding way of saying driving manual smoothly without doing racer rev matching, etc., there is no such thing as 0 slip, that would letting the clutch out instantly at once.
 


cxwrench

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#57
You have to realize a lot of guys on here are hard-core manual enthusiasts, and we can learn a lot from them... However, I'm 46 years old and learned to drive manual almost 30 years ago and only learned about throttle blipping and rev matching maybe 10 years ago... don't worry about some "clutch slip", it seems it's just a dirty sounding way of saying driving manual smoothly without doing racer rev matching, etc., there is no such thing as 0 slip, that would letting the clutch out instantly at once.
That's just the correct way to drive, nothing 'racer' about it. How would you explain the auto-blip feature on paddle shift cars?
 


danbfree

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#58
That's just the correct way to drive, nothing 'racer' about it. How would you explain the auto-blip feature on paddle shift cars?
I never said it wasn't "right" but also not really done by 95%+ of manual drivers. I was never taught it or told about it for years, if it's the "correct" way to drive, why isn't this taught or passed down by more manual drivers? You also can't tell me you are going to blip the throttle and rev match every shift in traffic, that's all I mean... and on paddle shifters that do that, it's a great feature with the DCT/DSG's, and during "racer" type driving, but you can't expect humans driving manual to be worried about this on an "every shift" basis... Anyway, I admit I wish I knew about this stuff sooner, I've owned manual cars in the past too and never even knew about it, looks like something to work on although Ford doesn't even place the pedals right for heel-toe, so not sure how they expect everyone to drive properly?
 


cxwrench

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#59
I never said it wasn't "right" but also not really done by 95%+ of manual drivers. I was never taught it or told about it for years, if it's the "correct" way to drive, why isn't this taught or passed down by more manual drivers? You also can't tell me you are going to blip the throttle and rev match every shift in traffic, that's all I mean... and on paddle shifters that do that, it's a great feature with the DCT/DSG's, and during "racer" type driving, but you can't expect humans driving manual to be worried about this on an "every shift" basis... Anyway, I admit I wish I knew about this stuff sooner, I've owned manual cars in the past too and never even knew about it, looks like something to work on although Ford doesn't even place the pedals right for heel-toe, so not sure how they expect everyone to drive properly?
My parents taught be more about driving than our 'driver ed' teacher that was probably only teaching the class to get some overtime. The level of instruction is still stupidly low in this country, I doubt kids are even taught anything about driving a manual these days. I rev-match on virtually every shift, it's most definitely not something to 'worry about' if that's the way you've always done it. It's not some extra step, it's just the way it happens.
Yes, everyone bitches about the pedals in the ST but they're not that hard to heel-toe, and the harder you're braking the easier it gets. The position of the pedals isn't nearly as good as many 'drivers' cars but they work. I did install a spacer under the mount but it's almost too much. But it's not bad enough to worry about. Maybe if I did track days I'd figure something out but I don't so...I don't heel-toe much, normally I just slide off the brake pedal to blip the throttle for the shift then move back to braking.
Same thing w/ riding a moto unless it has a slipper, rev matching is done every shift.
 


alexrex20

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#60
I prefer no spacer but I do have pedal covers that are wider so they lessen the distance between the pedals. Heel/toe is easy now. I have no idea how people do it with a pedal spacer. It absolutely does not work if you're threshold braking.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 


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