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Perrin WMI install PWI-2

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Sourskittle

Sourskittle

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Thread Starter #21
What ever kit stratified is using on their focus ST, is the same way. Not sure what pump or anything, but they are where I got the idea of just dropping a line down its throat ( with a filter on it ).

I'd go AEM if I had the money. Even if i had to live with gravity feed. I got this kit for $200 with a 2.5gal tank. Couldn't pass it up.

https://vimeo.com/122103196
https://vimeo.com/122103397
 


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Thread Starter #22
Ok !! New info time.
#1 and most important.... I WAS WRONG, lol. As mentioned, the pump did NOT prime with the pump being higher than the tank. I re-read the directions and... Says it clear as day, that the pump can be mounted next to or far away from the tank. BUT it does have to be primed, which requires a brief time where the pump must be below the water level. Longer paragraph short, I was wrong and its best just to mount the damn thing lower, lol.

#2 of course I didn't notice this unless I went to swap the .7 nozzle for the 1.2 nozzle and no water came out when I removed the nozzle. I installed the 1.2 nozzle after I primed the pump.

#3 this nozzle is too big for water/E85, lol. At 6,000rpm, the short term fuel trims are at -17%. Also means when I switch to meth, it maybe perfect ( maybe not ).

#4 while on the interstate, it was 89 degrees out, and will a little light pedal boosting, the temps dropped to 84degrees ( charge temps ).

#5 so far.... The car doesn't like it, lol. Its wondering why its having to pull 17% fuel to get a 11.00 afr !! For reference, the difference between E10 ( normal pump gas ) and E30 (blended) is a 12% increase in fuel flow required.

#6 I've driven the car 1 time and gathered some data and this is all very early info, so... Stay tuned. I'm gonna swap in the smaller nozzle and drive 30 miles both ways to get some more E85 after the traffic and temps die down :)
 


RAAMaudio

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#23
Are we having fun yet?

F'ing of course:)

-----------------------------

I might end up with MWI due to the EFR and stock fuel system not able to deliver enough E30. I have gone this route before but it was a pain in the arse for longer trips, etc....but I had to run it all the time.

With the AP and 5 tunes available I could run it as needed only.

And I have the capacity to haul lots of methanol in the truck bed.

-----------------------------

I have to look more at all the posts, threads, etc....but it seems it may be possible to just carry E85 and use it with a WMI kit?????

That would be a killer solution, I am going to dig in and find out:)
 


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#24
Ok !! New info time.
#1 and most important.... I WAS WRONG, lol. As mentioned, the pump did NOT prime with the pump being higher than the tank. I re-read the directions and... Says it clear as day, that the pump can be mounted next to or far away from the tank. BUT it does have to be primed, which requires a brief time where the pump must be below the water level. Longer paragraph short, I was wrong and its best just to mount the damn thing lower, lol.

#2 of course I didn't notice this unless I went to swap the .7 nozzle for the 1.2 nozzle and no water came out when I removed the nozzle. I installed the 1.2 nozzle after I primed the pump.

#3 this nozzle is too big for water/E85, lol. At 6,000rpm, the short term fuel trims are at -17%. Also means when I switch to meth, it maybe perfect ( maybe not ).

#4 while on the interstate, it was 89 degrees out, and will a little light pedal boosting, the temps dropped to 84degrees ( charge temps ).

#5 so far.... The car doesn't like it, lol. Its wondering why its having to pull 17% fuel to get a 11.00 afr !! For reference, the difference between E10 ( normal pump gas ) and E30 (blended) is a 12% increase in fuel flow required.

#6 I've driven the car 1 time and gathered some data and this is all very early info, so... Stay tuned. I'm gonna swap in the smaller nozzle and drive 30 miles both ways to get some more E85 after the traffic and temps die down :)
Glad you got the priming issue sorted. The only reason I mention it before was you immediately should have seen charge temps droplike a rock on your install and your response was that you weren't really impressed thus far. Your goals are similar to mine being you don't want to tune for it. You could even try straight ionized water. Problem with water for us up north is the risk of freezing which you obviously don't have in sunny Florida.
 


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Thread Starter #25
I'm going to run mostly meth through it. I'm only using the E85/water because I can't buy meth at the gas station ( well... Not the good kind ). My buddy has a drum at his house, i just have to bring him a container and a little cash for him to fill it; then pick it up the next day again. Its worth it though. I used 100% meth on my srt4 and it HATED anything else but 100%.

For an update... Switched to the .7nozzle and made the drive to get E85 and the .7 nozzle should def be enough. I spaced it out so it comes on around 6-7psi and its full on at 19psi ( need to lift that just a tiny bit, but I want to test it during spool up some more. Perrin calmed that a 5psi turn-on point on wrx's decreased lag. I don't see how that could happen, but what ever, i'll test it, lol ).

Now ??? I'm pretty dang excited about my $200 kit !! Lol.

Been meaning to take some pics. But on the interstate, i can get a little part throttle boost and if it comes on, the charge temps will go 2degress or so cooler the ambient temp. The meth should do a much better job of charge temp cooling, and its supposed to be like 113oct ( on the same scale that E85 is 105oct ).

Its gonna stay hot this week, so hitting new power number records prob isn't going to happen right now ( it may never cool back off )... Its made 246whp in 76degree temps so far though, on 25.9psi. Its def gonna get better.
 


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#26
Did you still utilize your washer tank when relocating your pump or did you cram the auxillary tank in somewhere?
 


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Thread Starter #27
I'm going to try and cram my snow performance 2.5gal where the stock air bod currently is, AFTER my 2J racing intake comes in and there is a huge whole there. More weight up front, and 2.5gal is dang near endless for wmi.
 


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#29
How are you going to go with target AFR's? Are you going to have a safe base tune then let the ecu scale back with fuel trims? You still gonna run high corn tank fuel as well?
 


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Thread Starter #30
I'm never getting away from E85. Its too good.
What I've found on MY CAR ( believe it or not, my fuel needs exponentially higher than a stock turbo car due too boost, rpm, and power I can not run more than E40-E45. At the current power level, I have the fuel system running at full on blast death kill murder and I can't ask for more than a 12.5 AFR at 6500rpm. If I do.... Say I ask for 11.00 ( which I have logs that show this ), I still get 12.2-12.5 AFR. It just can't keep up with that much E85.

Now with the extra fuel from the wmi, I fan ask for 11.0 and I get.... 11.0 with the fuel trims reducing output, not fighting to meet it. This is mostly to do with running a ratio of E85-80% and 20% water. I also saw no gain in power ( it actually lost power, which is what you'd think ). But what it does... Is it frees me to use say.... E50-E55, maybe E60 ( if I wanted to live on the edge at the track or something ), and the direct injection can handle it, and the gap will be filled in by the WMI.

It also means.... I have to monitor my 5500rpm+ AFR's more closely than I have been.

If the system fails.... If the tank runs dry, it will go lean and the stock fuel system will try and fill in the gap. I'd likely fall into the 13.5 AFR area, which is would prob just get hot, knock, pull a little timing and i'd say "WTF, why is it suddenly pulling timing" and I'd see it in a long. The real danger with a WMI system on this car will come when pushing the pump gas cars to the limit of 93oct, then pushing them to the limit with timing/boost on WMI. If the system fails in that case, the car will try to pull timing to save its self ( and prob would the first 1-10 times ), but its a much worse fate than running a little lean for a single gear pull ( unless that gear is 6th gear, lol ).

The X factor for me right now is.... Methanol.
Meth is actually much less fuel than E85 ( the same way E85 is actually much less fuel than Gasoline ), if you get what I'm saying. So while I'm filling in the gap nicely on E85, will it still "fill in the gap" on meth ? I've actually never seen this, but I've been told that running meth can actually MAKE YOU RUN LEAN. Sounds stupid, right? I guess the theory was that it reduced the charge temps so greatly, that the car ran LEANER via the cooler charge temps, then it did ran RICHER from the amount of meth injected. Crazy right...? IDK know about that. I don't expect to see that. But if I do... I have a big ace extra nozzle now, lol.

The idea behind this is.... 2 things for me.
#1 I can only run E40-E60 through the direct injection. Direct injection seems to really shine in the lower rpms, and all through the mid-rpms. It controls knock extremely well in those areas, essp with E30-E60 fuel in the tank. It seems to me.... That its not as perfect ( as least on this car ) in the higher RPMs where running it on the edge seems to expose some control issues. Fogging in all this fuel seems to have REALLY smoothed those issues out. HiJinx and i have been battling "spark blow out". Without a cooler plug we can use, and the gaps already down on the stock plugs, we have been kind of just waiting for an alternative spark plug. This morning ? Perfect. I have not felt the car run this smooth at 6,000rpm since it was stock turbo on OTS cobb tune and 2 gal on E85. It went from fairly consistent spark blow out, to perfectly smooth. My theory RIGHT NOW, is that its acfually not spark blow out at all. Its simply been mis-fires ( not knock ). Not a back fire. Just incomplete or failed ignition. Why its happened, I can't say. What I can say is... Its completely gone. The new Porsche GT3 runs direct injection to 9,000 rpms. But that's Porsche, thats a GT3, and its not turbocharged. I think maybe our injectors can't control its injection timing or something. Keep in mind... I'm really pushing this fuel system with setting and because of the amount of E85 I'm using. Its a ton of FLOW. Others may not have seen or experienced this because everyone else just throws in $14 per gal race fuel, and that fuel does not require an increase in fuel flow. It actually doesn't require any changes in the fuel system, minus making up for a little extra boost.

#2
The most E85 I can run through the direct injection is E45, right? How much E85 can I run through the WMI fogger ? 100% E85 !! Lol. If my direct injection fuel system could run E85, would i run E85 ? Heck yes. Maybe not all the time. But there would def be a finely tuned "E85 tune". But I can't. Running E85 through the fogger nozzle i'm getting 100% E85, not E45. The more of my fueling I get from the nozzle, the more of the total fueling comes from 100% E85, instead of E45. Understand what I'm getting at ? Right now, I'm seeing a peak of 17% of my fueling coming from the nozzle. That's a little too much for my liking. But the methanol will change that for sure.

This ECU is AWESOME. I've said it before, I'll say it again. The same thing about the cobb software. Its awesome.

How great is it that we can just set a target AFR, and the car hits it assuming it has enough pressures and flow to do so. Its basically zero tuning for the fuel side of WMI. You set the AFR in access tuner, let the WMI do its thing, and the ecu reduces its fuel injected to keep the AFR correct. And it does this almost PERFECTLY the first pull. Then second pull, its pretty much PERFECT.

If you followed some of all of that... Here is something just cool.
I made 250whp from 5800rpm+ this morning in 72degree, wet foggy conditions (humid, heavy air). It peaked at 258whp around 6300rpm I think. I'll post a V-dyno in a bit. The car has made better power, but not as smoothly, not over such a broad band, and it took much much cooler/dryer conditions to make those higher numbers (264whp).
 


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Thread Starter #31

Basic horsepower curve 258whp at 6150rpm


Two of my better looking HP graphs against this morning in much less favorable weather ( and 1-1.5psi less peak boost ). Notice at the bottom, the blue line for AFR. See how its all wavy ? It goes to 13.1 around 6200rpm !! The red one is with WMI.


Two of my better looking Torque graphs against this morning in much less favorable weather ( and 1-1.5psi less peak boost ). This is 3775rpm to redline.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fo831ldujva5m9m/MethInject.csv?dl=0
Link to raw datalog file.
 


Hijinx

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#32
FWIW, now that it's warming up I don't get anymore blow-out. But, then again, I'm not on edge of tuning yet. I'm still weighing this WMI option. I'll see once I get everything settled in.
 


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Thread Starter #33
I'm thinking its not blow out... It may have been, it def felt like it. But i'd be pretty puzzled to explain how injecting E85 stopped spark blow out, lol.
 


MOFiST

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#34
Lots of meaty info in that post 4 posts above. I understood most of what you're saying. Methanol making your car run lean is something I'd never heard. My brain is still warming up this morning but I'm finding that a little hard to grasp. Is it due to the stoich of methanol if you were spraying too much in for the AFR target you'd set?
What boost level are you running ATM?
Man I wish I had access to the USDM tuning tools. This is right where I'd want to go. Oh well I can watch vicariously.
 


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Thread Starter #35
The meth runs lean because your adding very little real "fuel" to the fire, while cooling the charge air down an extreme amount. But I think this applied to cars "back in the day" that didn't auto tune for AFR like our car does with the wideband.

I'm running about 26.5psi peak atm. It will touch 27psi if I its cool enough outside ( which I'm not eve close to right now ).
 


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Thread Starter #37


Girl friend dragged me to get ice cream, and it did this... 262whp at 6200rpm on a humid 75 degree night :)

Not bad :)
 


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Thread Starter #39
If anyone ever had any question about the effectiveness of methanol as a charge temp cooler, then this should answer any and all questions. Even I'm impressed.

Here is a spoiler.

The charge temps are actually LOWER than the inlet temps at the air filter until 5400rpm where they are equal. Above 5400rpm to 6800rpm, the charge trmps only go 9 degrees higher than the inlet temps !!

Here is the full log.
http://www.datazap.me/u/sourskittle/first-100-meth-pull-80-degrees-outside?log=0&data=3-6
 


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Thread Starter #40
If I were to switch this tune out to a cobb stg3 tune ( aka way way lower boost above 5000rpms ), then who knows what the charge temps would be, it may stay below inlet temps 100% of the time.
 


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