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How did you start tuning?

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#1
I picked up the APV3 a week ago, and ATR software recently. The last thing I tuned on my own was an old OBDI GM, and I spend some time with my brother who does a lot of GM LS tuning. The Ecoboost 1.6 PCM is beyond complex in comparison. Before I begin poking around with the race tuning software from Cobb, I want a much more detailed understanding of how the PCM "thinks"...

My question is this: Where did you guys start when you decided to tune your Fiesta? What documentation did you use, and what do you still find referencing a lot? What do you consider your most important "basics" to understand? I bought the software primarily because the Cobb additional features seemed very interesting and useful, such as per-gear boost targets. I'm just wondering what you guys found useful to read, what "lightbulb moments" you had when looking at parameters or adjusting a particular area of the PCM.

Hopefully any answers here can help other people in a similar situation and as always, thanks for any help!

-Travis
 


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Thread Starter #2
I have so many FiST specific tuning questions haha.

HDFX tables confuse me. I'd to know more about the PCM logic there especially. The HDFX tables are referenced from the VCT angles (and the VCT angles ONLY, correct?). The desired VCT angles are based off of... what? I haven't yet made the connection to what logic the PCM uses to calculate where it wants the cam phasing to be at. Is this referenced from the Load tables?

-Travis
 


dyn085

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#3
I actually had a thread somewhere that covered a lot of this, but I haven't updated it in forever because no one really seems to want to talk about it.

Banish books are great to read, I'll post a pic of some that I have. They obviously are not going to cover anything specific to the ST, but they cover the basics in a very detailed manner. The closest thing you'll have to ST-specific information is the Cobb Tuning Aid.

HDFX tables are the timing tables referenced for those particular cam-pair angles. This is something that a lot of people don't understand on a basic level and try to apply timing changes across-the-board when unnecessary. You can log HDFX individually, see what tables you're using when, and then you can tune based on that information. Don't worry about the Optimum Power table unless you enable it.

VCT angles are based off of whatever engineer or Cobb put them at. I haven't messed with them any, but I believe you can change your cam timing that way. Where it gets its calculations are the scheduling and distance folders, iirc.
 


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Thread Starter #5
THANK YOU. I have the Motorbooks Workshop books already, but the other two look like a good read. Well, the other three! It's high time I started brewing.

I actually had a thread somewhere that covered a lot of this, but I haven't updated it in forever because no one really seems to want to talk about it.
Yeah, there's a select few tidbits of information around here that are open-source. Deservedly, it seems as though those who have enough knowledge to share, have enough knowledge to profit from haha.

HDFX tables are the timing tables referenced for those particular cam-pair angles. This is something that a lot of people don't understand on a basic level and try to apply timing changes across-the-board when unnecessary. You can log HDFX individually, see what tables you're using when, and then you can tune based on that information. Don't worry about the Optimum Power table unless you enable it.

VCT angles are based off of whatever engineer or Cobb put them at. I haven't messed with them any, but I believe you can change your cam timing that way. Where it gets its calculations are the scheduling and distance folders, iirc.
The scheduling and distance folders are full of what looks to be four sets of tables; Emissions Reduction, Fuel Economy, Optimal Stability, and Transient Performance. I assume that the scheduling of the VCT and therefore the HDFX tables involved at a given time are based on which of the four modes the PCM is in? I don't see anything particular that displays what the cam timing is based off of. So it's just a constant in the background that Cobb/Ford sets, and is reflected in the HDFX tables? Could one back-track and manually set the cam phasing through manual mode and then see the resulting HDFX table called upon to make a sort of specific map to predict which HDFX table would be used at any given time?

I think I'm well overthinking this. It just seems weird to me that the only real way to know which HDFX tables are being used is by logging all 15 table weights. I feel like it'd be so much more useful to just have a cheat-sheet or a look-up of "18.5 intake and -1 exhaust is HDFX X 60% and Y 40%" without having to log the parameters. But then again it all seems incredibly weird to me because this [rant] makes OBDI GM tuning the equivalent of learning your colors in preschool...

[goofydrunk] I know what I'm doing for my Friday night...

-Travis
 


dyn085

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#6
I don't know why more ATR users don't post or share more, there is a lot more discussion in the FoST community. We have less to begin with, but I think that many are just insecure with their knowledge or blatantly don't want to share. I can openly admit that I don't know everything, but when multiple people brainstorm together the collective knowledge can grow rather quickly. Most everything that I've learned has been through trial-and-error, reverse engineering datalogs, or from subtle (or not so subtle) hints from some of my friends that tune ST's professionally.

I think you only have to log VCT mode and HDFX distance in order to see the whole picture, you just have to reference where that lands every time. VCT mode would tell you which of the four table sets you're using and the HDFX distance that's logged will correlate to that tables track and tell you which cam-angle pair is being used. I've never really looked into that to be 100% sure, though.

It's time-consuming no matter which way you look at it, but I think that that's the price we pay for the improved technology. Everyone that self-tunes and has previous tuning experience agree that it's significantly more complicated, but once they get a feel for the system they are usually pretty emphatic with the amount of control they have. Also, manual mode for cam phasing will lock your cams in at that setting until you unlock them. You'll have to do that if you ever do any VE tuning, but outside of that you won't and shouldn't. It makes for some lope-y idle sounds and is moderately fun but leads to skyrocketing exhaust temps.
 


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Thread Starter #7
I see. It's probably going to get a lot easier for me to wrap my head around the EcoBoost craziness after a weekend of overanalyzing datalogs. Lol. Right now I'm just logging to make sure I have no throttle closures or weird nonsense with the Cobb OTS Stage 1 tune, and then when I have a weekend free and some walking-around money available it'll be off to the local dyno to run some logs and get a good understanding of my baseline tune.

I also noticed Cobb's default launch control exit speed was something like 8mph. I'd be very curious to see what others are running. And how they've set up per-gear boost targets. I feel like there's considerable improvements to be had if you can underboost first gear enough to make it usable at WOT and allow a bit lower boost in 2nd gear to keep it from trying to punch the tires off the rim. All in good time...

I saw the sticky about the knowledge sharing and question/answer attempt, but hasn't been used in a LONG time... what happened to that?

-Travis
 


dyn085

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#8
For the most part, no one posts about any of their setups and that thread you're referencing didn't really have any actual self-tuning info in it. You'll see some screenshots of individual tables throughout the forum, but little actual tuning info/discussion outside of that. My thread used to be a sticky but there really wasn't much 'discussion' there either. Anyways, here is the link to that (mostly FoST stuff) and a reading material thread that I had started as well:

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/5139-Self-Tuning-to-ease-the-boredom
http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/5092-Self-Tuning-Recommended-Reading-Material

I tested the VCT Mode/HDFX Distance just a minute ago when I ran to the store for pizza and beer, it definitely appears to work the way I described above. As for LC, I never really messed with it because I definitely don't get much time to hit the track. Modifying your boost-per-gear is definitely a better way to manage WOT, but depending on your surface you're either always giving up power you could be utilizing or spinning, lol. It's a delicate balance so I prefer to use my foot for that control and only limit boost in fifth and sixth gears.
 


RAAMaudio

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#9
I HIGHLY respect those that want to DIY tune. I would of been into it and become decent or pretty damn good perhaps but got burned out in 20 years of working on insane gear in the USN so now I just pay a good tuner:)

(I do have all my chassis tuning books and lots of experience there, not always appreciated by some when I post what I know though;)
 


dyn085

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#10
I logged VCT mode, HDFX Track and table weights and a few other things on a 10 minute ride home today and gave it a few different driving conditions. I am blown away that the pcm will sometimes weight all 15 tables at once!

In my VCT mode log, I was in mode 11 cruising... I also saw Mode 5 which is OP mode but I saw no use of OP mode HDFX table. It used mode 9 when I shifted or coasted with the clutch in. Never used mode 6 or 12. Briefly used mode 10. I haven't started diving into the HDFX track to estimate what tables are being used but from an initial glance your explanation makes sense to me. My question now is what the hell is mode 11, and why do I see mode 5 in my log?
Mode 11 is your Best Fuel Economy.

As for VCT Mode 5, I am not 100% and have a question in and am awaiting response. I have a couple of guesses, but I think it has something to do with how the OEM has it set up from the factory. I think that even though the cams are set to optimum power limitations that enabling table 16 is only applicable to the timing tables. I'll let you know what I find out.

If you haven't already, you'll want to download Cobb's Table Descriptions, the Ford Monitor List, and (if you think you're ever going to feel funky enough to play around with it) the Ford VE Tuning Aid. There is a little (and sometimes, a lot) of information within them that will help at least start you on the path of understanding the ECU a bit better.
 


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Thread Starter #11
Mode 11 is fuel economy. How did I miss that? So, VCT Scheduling sets the parameters and threshold's the PCM uses to decide which VCT mode it's in. Once it decides a mode, the track distance tables in that mode create a track number based upon the conditions that particular VCT mode utilizes. Then the HDFX track # is indexed by the mapped points table to select which blend of HDFX tables to use, and correspondingly selects the cam phasing demanded by the HDFX mapped points configuration.

For a while I thought all of this was initially based on cam timing, which was set by cobb/ford and not adjustable and that confused me because I could see where I could adjust cam timing in the HDFX configutation. I see now that THAT configuration is exactly as cobb explain's it; the HDFX tables and cam timing are both selected by the pcm as a PAIR at the same point in the pcm logic flow.

If I'm wrong somewhere please correct me. Otherwise I'm gonna go get me a victory beer.

-Travis
 


dyn085

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#12
Yep, go get your victory beer. I kind of think of it somewhat like a pyramid in the fact that you'll have a base set of parameters that you meet when idling, those will increase as you accelerate, increase more as you racecar, decrease to a moderate level when cruising, fall below the base when coasting in gear, etc. Those parameters will dictate what mode you're in and each mode has its own separate parameters to have more control within them (like individual blocks within the same level of the pyramid).

Not the greatest analogy but it works in my head.

A large part of tuning regarding these ECU's is knowing exactly when and where you are within it when making changes. It's less important when doing WOT, but a lot of members have been under the impression that one change in a BL table is automatically applicable to all. While that will give you some timing stability at WOT, making a change on table 6 at low-load will be a waste of time (and probably detrimental to the table and engine efficiency) if the car is solely using table 7 in that moment in time.

I got a somewhat directly indirect answer regarding HDFX Table 16, so I'm probably just going to enable it and evaluate it to clarify it to me. It seems like the major takeaway is that when enabled it will weight just like the others, not simply omit everything else when active. Hopefully that makes sense.

And yes, can angles can be changed. Many FoST owners used that to their advantage in order to add additional timing up top. You can also use the VCT manual mode to lock them in place and calibrate each individual table, just know that even when they're locked there are safety measures in place to keep them from being locked throughout the entire rpm range when necessary. Maybe that does/doesn't make sense, but the car can't even idle at a lot of the cam angles.
 


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Thread Starter #13
A friend of mine that runs the local dyno picked up a Mustang with the Coyote motor in it and has been tuning using SCT software. He runs the car essentially bone stock on sticky rubber. He's really into adjusting the cam phasing, so that is something I am very interested to dive into. You mentioned that the pcm will adjust manually set VCT parameters; is this to inhibit valve-to-piston clearance issues and such?

I really need to make a flowchart of the pcm logic and print it off into a booklet... the boost targeting and load to torque/torque to load is my next area of massive misunderstanding.
-Travis
 


dyn085

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#14
A friend of mine that runs the local dyno picked up a Mustang with the Coyote motor in it and has been tuning using SCT software. He runs the car essentially bone stock on sticky rubber. He's really into adjusting the cam phasing, so that is something I am very interested to dive into. You mentioned that the pcm will adjust manually set VCT parameters; is this to inhibit valve-to-piston clearance issues and such?

I really need to make a flowchart of the pcm logic and print it off into a booklet... the boost targeting and load to torque/torque to load is my next area of massive misunderstanding.
-Travis
Correct. That, and to allow the car to actually run/idle. What you'll see when you lock the cams and monitor that appropriate HDFX weight is what percentage it's not being used, when it's blended in, and when it's fully locked. For example, if you lock the cams at the HDFX 07 pair you might see zero percentage at idle, 5 percent at 1k, 50% at 2k, 100% from 3k to 5k, then blending down to redline.

That's not accurate in the slightest, just an overall generalization of what you might see, and where the cams are out/blended/locked will vary. Different pairs will be active during different rpms, so when you lock cams you'll want to monitor that on your display so you can shut down early on a pull instead of wasting your time running all the way to redline when the locked cams have already been phased out. Besides shutting down early, this also helps you to know where to make appropriate changes and where to leave tables alone.
 


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Thread Starter #15
http://datazap.me/u/timebomb572/cobb-stage-1-93-ots?log=0&data=2-5

I finally got a chance to get a couple 3rd gear WOT pulls on dry roads. I forgot to turn traction control off completely, though. It looks like I'm getting consistent throttle closures between 2200 and 3400rpm due to Load Actual being higher than Load Requested. The requested load matches the last row of Torque to Load tables in the Cobb Stage 1 OTS tune. It looks to me like to get rid of this throttle closure I'd have to bring the load requested up a little higher in the 1500-4000rpm range through all the TTL tables (they're all the same...) and then run'er again? Where does Load Requested TQ Control come from?

-Travis
 


dyn085

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#16
Actually you won't want to change your TTL tables, you'll want to raise your Max Load Compensations in the Load Tables folder. You won't be hitting the torque necessary to go over the 3 load that's modeled out on the OEM turbo. Modifying the TTL/LTT tables would need to be done with a bigger turbo, but until then they should be fine.

If you're going to be moving over to a boost controlled tune or just want to ensure your load limit is slightly out of reach currently, you'll want to make sure that you take a look at the compressor map for the KP39 and make sure your boost control limits are set accordingly so you aren't running it too hard in the summer. Load Requested TQ is found in the Throttle Tables folder.
 


dyn085

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#17
While looking at that log again, I wonder if there's something aside from the torque tables that's causing the throttle closure. I didn't initially realize that the global limit was the LSPI table, which is set pretty high from Cobb, so I reached out to a friend and he recommended logging the Airflow Limit Source.
 


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Thread Starter #18
Just realized the whole "source/mode" parameter logging. Wow, is that useful... I will do a few more logs that include more sources. Damn this ecoboost... the more I learn about it, the more hopelessly ignorant I feel!

So because the maximum torque source is in LSPI at WOT, there might be an airflow limit clip of some sort being applied that's causing throttle closure?

-Travis
 


dyn085

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#19
Lol, my friends have the tendency to say and show me things that make me feel like I'm a kindergartener taking college classes sometimes. On the bright side, when moments of clarity happen you feel great about them, lol.

Yes, there may be another limit holding you back. Did you make any changes to the Cobb maps to get to that closure?
 


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Thread Starter #20
I sure wish I would have logged with the traction control completely off. Or at least logged torque source. I'm going to do another pull tomorrow weather permitting, with ESC off. I might be making you beat a dead horse right now if TC kicked in and that was the reason for the throttle closure lol... Regardless it's still using LSPI as the max tq source through the whole pull. Seems weird.

-Travis
 




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