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Sound deadening questions

RAAMaudio

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#21
This car has as stiff bushings with short sidewall tires and is a hatch so it will be tough to make it real quiet but some work is indeed worth doing.

If not done so read the HOW TO Guide and Vehicle Fitment guide on raamaudio dot com as that is based on nearly 20 years and tens of thousands of installs from the most basic to world championships being won and will give the best overall results the closer followed. This is not an ad, this is to help you do the best for the least time and cost, use whatever you wish but their is no other guides like the ones I posted as most selling deadening do not even know how to use it right, just sell all the can.

Mat, any good brand and use sparingly, more is not often better unless building an all out higher end audio system, competition, etc....
Foam, Ensolite is the only game in town, peal and stick takes 1/4th the effort, cost about the same as adhesive not needed.
Acoustical foam, Ebay is best bet these days, it is gray, looks like egg crate, can be found in larger sheets for low price.


This particular car need work in the hatch area the most, qtr panels are small and hard to get to, I mostly used 2" thick acoustical foam that is cheap to get now on Ebay, do allow for air flow so the vents work properly but make the air pass over and around the foam before exiting the car.
Just enough mat to seal up some areas, lots of ensolite foam as it costs less and weight is super low for most of the work.
Seal up under the hatch trim, add a bit of mat to it, cover the holes in the hatch with mat and then foam.
Tire well, a bit of mat, then line with the foam.
rear floor, a little mat, tap and listen/feel, as per the guide, then all with the foam.
Doors are a bit tough to get into, just mat and foam behind the speakers, some mat on the plastic cover over the big door access hole, foam over it all.
Door panels, a bit of mat on any resonate prone area, foam over that and a bit more of the panels.
Kick panels, seal holes up with mat and foam.
Under dash, a bit of mat on any resonate areas, foam on all you can get it on, stuff some acoustical foam inside the dash but leave room for air flow, especially around the intake and outlets of the HVAC system.
Laying a sheet of the acoustical foam under the seats can help quite a bit.
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The above gives the best results for time and not a great deal of cost or added weight.

For the next level up doing the floor is best.

Floor, a bit of mat on any resonate areas, foam on the rest of it, if any really soft, flexible, boomy areas then mat, foam, mat foam on those specifically.

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Roof, nearly always the least gain and the most work, adding weight up high is not something I prefer to do so I if doing one on a performance car I usually line the roof and back of headliner if not factory covered with felt or foam.

If I add mat it is only in the middle of larger resonate prone areas on the roof the cover all with the foam.

(if a high db sub install is planned I add a layer of mat to the whole roof then add a second layer coveringn half of more in the middle of the larger areas then add the foam and if room add a layer of acoustical foam as well)

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I could say hope this helps but that is not true, I know it will help so I will say follow this advice if you want the best results for the time and money you put into it at the level you wish to acheive:)

Most sincerely,
Rick
 


RAAMaudio

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#23
It will help but not a great deal as that area is not a big problem.

I will go over this better tomorrow, did not see it until now.

Rick
 


J2FoRS

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#24
It will help but not a great deal as that area is not a big problem.

I will go over this better tomorrow, did not see it until now.

Rick
In for response,

Read through entire thread, looking to cut down on some road/exhaust noise in cabin on highway. This is really bad seats down and hatch cover off. My exhaust does not drone, im just getting old and the commutes feel loud. :p
 


jmrtsus

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#25
There's a pretty distinct difference between exhaust noise and road/cabin noise. Exhaust noise, when not full of drone, is pleasant. Road/cabin noise (NVH) is not. I can't stand the fact that my ears are ringing every day after my commute. Once I get around to it I will be ordering from here- https://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com
Why are your ears ringing? What is modified on your car making it so loud? Stock WOT is only 75 dB per road test measurements which is pretty quiet for a small, light inexpensive car.

"Seventy-five decibels is about the loudness of chamber music in a small auditorium. It is just above a normal speaking voice, which is about 65 to 70 decibels. It is just below a telephone dial tone, which registers at 80 decibels."

How loud is 75 decibels? | Reference.com
https://www.reference.com/science/loud-75-decibels-9bc5167e3a880b06
 


dyn085

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#26
Why are your ears ringing? What is modified on your car making it so loud? Stock WOT is only 75 dB per road test measurements which is pretty quiet for a small, light inexpensive car.

"Seventy-five decibels is about the loudness of chamber music in a small auditorium. It is just above a normal speaking voice, which is about 65 to 70 decibels. It is just below a telephone dial tone, which registers at 80 decibels."

How loud is 75 decibels? | Reference.com
https://www.reference.com/science/loud-75-decibels-9bc5167e3a880b06
You quoted me, but I guess I can re-clarify that my issue is with how much road noise the FiST has- not how loud it is at WOT. In fact, I'm not sure that many people are WOT their entire drive home to even have that problem.

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RAAMaudio

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#27
The stiff suspension bushings create alot of the road noise in this car, going to have to live with some of it but they also are very important to how the car handles, a bit of a tradeoff.

Hatch design, cabin vents are inside the car, rear qtr panels down low behind bumper cover, open when the vent system is in use but allow noise when not as well.

Hatch floor is very solid in this car, tire well has the tire to dampen much of the resonance there.

I only did the rear of the car as it was the most important, I did take some pics but not easy to get good shots of some areas like the most important qtr panels than are impossible to get to most of in this design.

Adding mass only works to deaden resonances on surfaces prone to do so, most of this car has little of those surfaces, what we need it to break up the energy using open or partially open foam.

Ensolite works really well in all areas, the more the better and then acoustical foam which now can be found for cheap on Amazon or Ebay, I will look up a link.

I did use some mass product but only where critical, sealing up holes that do not need to flow air, diverting air to flow around and over as much of the two types of foam helps the best which I did. I only used 2 or 3 sheets of the mass material in the whole back of the car due to how it was designed. If I was putting in a high output, audiophile grade, subwoofer system then I would of used more mass product.

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In the spare tire well you may use some but just tap and listen as per the HOW TO GUIDE, it explains it really well, then cover with foam and add acoustical foam in any open area not needed for other things, more foam, less mass, more effective, cost less, less added weight.....all good!

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Spray on or paint on products can certainly help but they miss out on having the aluminum layer which reduces resonance by stiffening up the area more than it would seem.

Adding enough to make a difference means a relatively thick layer and might need covered with something to keep things like a spare tire from sticking to it due to the weight...
 


RAAMaudio

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#29
Holly Sheat batman!

Sorry dyn085, I just have to say this as I know exactly what I am saying and yet saying much less than I could.

Marketing guy, not a car guy, studies well know companies products and methods, develops highly over priced hyped up product line......

You can do all you need for 1/3 that price with products used around the world on tens of thousands of installs all the way up to world championship audio comp builds;)

And with very careful use save considerably more.

No Sheat, I am the guy that developed products and methods to do the job before anybody else had a low cost alternative to big name brands, used things like Ensolite foam, etc...only players were the few big brands which were and still are highly over priced. Going on 20 years into this, millions of emails answered, always put my fellow enthusiasts first before business and have been retired for over 4 years but still glad to help anybody I can.

I am here promoting what works damn well and costs less and the way to use it for best effects, not my particular products but quality real sound deadening materials for a reasonable cost, there is no need to spent that kind of money to do a great job.

Be wary of paying far too much for to little material and to much hype;)

Rick
 


dyn085

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#30
And obviously you're going to be biased. I have a tough time believing that an equivalent degree of deadening can be done on $180 without using some janky shit. Obviously some cost can be cut, but the point is the same.

When I researched Ensolite vs SDS before, it just seemed like a majority recommended SDS. Obviously you are going to feel different, and so will some others, but you can't act like everything falls into the worse category when compared to your products or particular path. Ymmv.

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RAAMaudio

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#31
The best way to make the car quieter if the exhaust is not that loud is to change the tires to some good 16 or better yet 15's, picked carefully and get the benefit of improving all aspects of performance.

The 205/50/15 NeoGen on 15x8 wheels and 225 Rival S on 15x9 wheels are both hugely lower in noise and harshness than the stock Bridgestones on stock wheels and 205/45/17 Michelin PS2 AS tires on 17x7 Konig feathers. The difference is far beyond what just deadening can do and I still own my deadening business and telling that it is better to deal with the tires first and keep the exhaust from being to loud. I have a 3" exhaust with 5x18" SS core resonator, small Borla SS packed muffler and the race cat DP and my car sounds dang fine with very little drone. I also did the rear deadening, quite comfortable on the road, have to put on a muffler delete pipe to hear the exhaust better on a race track, and the tires made the biggest difference by far. My wife hated to ride in the car on the Mich and loves the car on the 15's.
 


dyn085

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#32
Oh hell no, I'm not throwing money at 15's just because of the econo-car build quality. Besides, weren't you just acting like $550 is too much money? I don't think you're going to have a ton of awesome options for a wheel/tire/TPMS package at that price.

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RAAMaudio

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#33
I am talking from a perspective of a lifetime of modding vehicles, houses, buildings, etc, my first car audio install was in 1968 and I have beaten world champions and helped many become champions, in sound quality, not just making bass like noise. Back when I started my company I was in charge of and engineered the rebuilding of a major USN operation center and sound deadening was number one priority, you could not hear a person talking 20 ft away, even yelling could barely hear it. At that time the other guy was a commercial photographer in the advertising industry and used me and a competitor to learn all he could about our businesses, materials, and this is the first time I will post it publicly, he used the money I was paying him for a new website to develop and launch his own business while telling me the delays were due to his girlfriend in the hospital, dying, etc...I send extra funds to help him be my competitor. Then he locked me out of my site, want to do business with him by all means do so.

He has come up with some great ideas, info, products, etc....but also used a great deal of marketing BS to make huge margins so he can make a killing on what he sells.

I tended to always keep the lowest prices I could, most bang for the buck and always recommended the least amount of materials for the job....

Then you get placebo, just like on another post, those that pay the most want to believe they have the best deal which is seldom the case;)

Record is straight, there is not a sole in the universe that could dispute what I have just said, period.

-------------

And, I am not promoting my product, I am promoting not blowing your money on marketing BS, or those that fell pray to such tactics and now want to support it so their feelings are not hurt.

There are other good products out there that fall in line closer to what I do but none have the feedback and experience and put into simple guides to help achieve their goals and save a lot of money while doing so. I will help guide anybody that wants my help no matter what they buy even if they get ripped off and pay a massive markup price on hyped up products:):):)

It has been awhile since we had a go around here, no offense meant, just putting out the truth whether some like it or not;)

If I was concerned with making a sale I would not be putting the time into this little forum, much bigger fish to fry, I am here to help, period.

Good day:)
Rick
 


jmrtsus

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#37
The reason for the WOT reading is it is the highest noise measurement in the stock FiST tested. What I am trying to point out is our cars are not that noisy for what they are. Wanting to make it quieter is a good thing but to give the impression that driving a FiST will actually cause ear ringing for a normal hearing individual is something those that don't have an ST yet could take seriously. I for one was on this Forum for a almost a year before buying mine to learn all I could, and thinking it was that noisy would have definitely put me off from buying one. I understand you were joking but am not sure non owners would. Was not trying to break any balls just wondering if you had a droning exhaust or running mud tires or dragging 2 dogs and 3 cats or something that might actually cause it. To be honest I never hear the road noise over the music! My budget for sound improvements leans towards a Borla or Ford Performance cat back and a compact sub in the spare tire area.
 


dyn085

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#38
The reason for the WOT reading is it is the highest noise measurement in the stock FiST tested. What I am trying to point out is our cars are not that noisy for what they are. Wanting to make it quieter is a good thing but to give the impression that driving a FiST will actually cause ear ringing for a normal hearing individual is something those that don't have an ST yet could take seriously. I for one was on this Forum for a almost a year before buying mine to learn all I could, and thinking it was that noisy would have definitely put me off from buying one. I understand you were joking but am not sure non owners would. Was not trying to break any balls just wondering if you had a droning exhaust or running mud tires or dragging 2 dogs and 3 cats or something that might actually cause it. To be honest I never hear the road noise over the music! My budget for sound improvements leans towards a Borla or Ford Performance cat back and a compact sub in the spare tire area.
I was definitely not joking, lol. I have the standard catted Cobb TBE (pretty tame) and I'm on 215/40 R17 Yokohoma S.drive's (more sidewall), and I even swapped my tune out for OEM to try and knock every little bit of sound down. As I explained in the PM, the stretch of interstates that I daily drive are chewed up from those that run studded winter tires as long as possible, and running them at 60+mph is just completely unpleasant on any area that hasn't recently been repaired or repaved. I'm lucky that I only have to drive to work for 5-6 months out of the year, but I drive a little more than 10k in that timeframe and I've already tried trading this car off a couple of times almost strictly because of the road noise.
 


J2FoRS

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#39
I was definitely not joking, lol. I have the standard catted Cobb TBE (pretty tame) and I'm on 215/40 R17 Yokohoma S.drive's (more sidewall), and I even swapped my tune out for OEM to try and knock every little bit of sound down. As I explained in the PM, the stretch of interstates that I daily drive are chewed up from those that run studded winter tires as long as possible, and running them at 60+mph is just completely unpleasant on any area that hasn't recently been repaired or repaved. I'm lucky that I only have to drive to work for 5-6 months out of the year, but I drive a little more than 10k in that timeframe and I've already tried trading this car off a couple of times almost strictly because of the road noise.
Im basically at this point now. And as someone who drives a motorcycle primarily in nice weather to commute and save gas (IE extreme noise from wind, exhaust cars etc in the open air) I'm not just being a whiner. I drive alot of 30min-1.5hr commutes and back and forths for both business and pleasure weekly and I am embarrassed to say most times I'd rather drive the girlfriends new Fit [limphand] simply because its a much quieter chill experience. Im old I guess (29 lol). I love my FiST driving around town and windows down sunroof open ripping around doing errands or visiting friends or back and forth locally to work. But even a jump to the next town to the mall (~20 mins) I'd rather take her car now.

My current focus is trying sound deadening to help improve the hatch area, and I'm trying to find a suitable exhaust to switch too. Mine has no drone cruising, but my getting old self I guess is just not enjoying the tone and loudness of it for daily use anymore. [driving]
 


RAAMaudio

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#40
Around here the Mich PS3 AS were tolerable for noise but going over the I80 was insanely loud, harsh vibrations, the first time I pulled over to see what broke on the car it was so bad but the car was fine. Road surfaces have a great deal to do with all this.

The last time I drove over it was on the 15" NeoGen, same roads, noisier than here but no harsh vibrations and not that loud, a HUGE difference and the only change on the car besides going back to a catted DP and quieter exhaust but not by much.

I have stiffer suspension bushings, engine and trans mounts, aluminum steering rack bushing and my car is quite acceptable over the worst of the I80 chewed up cement on the NeoGen or the Rival S 15's.

I have stopped by car shows, been to race and performance shops, car washes, parts stores, etc......hundreds of compliments which is not why I built the car and no one has said my 15's look little, funny, etc.....though the great 6ul look a bit small to me but I am used to the design of the Helix that look more like 16's and the perfect size for the design of this car.

My next family car will have 18, 19 or 20's on it because it would of been designed for that size but I might step down one size on a couple we are looking at so I can get flow formed low weight wheels in the right offset and width and or the tires I want to run come only in sizes making me change. My murdered out, Borla great sounding exhaust, handling upgraded suspension V8 4runner went up to 20's because I could not get the tire I wanted in 18 or 19.

I like to run the smallest diameter I can to faciltate running the tires I want to run and also be strong but as low in weight as possible on every car I build, truck, etc.....

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Back to road noise, 17's are just going to transmit more noise in the vast majority of cases than a 16 and much more than a 15" tire, physics again comes to the table and cannoot be wished away or even deadened away enough in many cases, just the way it is no matter how much one spends on deadening.
 




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