Wilwood BBK Seized after 3 track days

[justinsane]

Pretty surprised to find my Wilwood Dynapro 6 kit seized after just three track days.
The track I frequent (Ridge Motorsports Park) isn't even all that hard on brakes and many stock setups hold up just fine including my old MK6 GTI

5 Out of the 6 pistons seem to be okay but 1 of them seems to be stuck making a terrible noise and killed my brake pads/fuel economy on my drive back from the track.
This is on both driver and passenger side calipers

The Hawk DTC-30 brake pad looked brand new before I swapped them on in the pits, now a day later they are done.

A bit more about my setup:
- Standard rear brakes, just stainless lines and ferodo DS 2500 pads
- Bled with Motul 5.1 less than a week before this track day
- Have the Boomba air deflectors

The reason I wanted to bring this up is I've seen a few other guys on our forum running this Wilwood big brake kit without any issues but I've yet to have a good experience with these.
Personally I think the brake bias is awful and even after 1.5 years my rear Ferodo pads look brand new. I'm definitely looking into getting an upgrade to the SVT focus rear rotors but now it seems I need to sort out the fronts too.
If I do rebuild these calipers I will definitely look into some ducting and running a softer pad than the Hawk DTC-30 to hopefully generate less heat and have less of a front bias.
My street/autox pad of choice was the carbotech AX6 and even with those the brake bias was awful, they didn't hold up well to track abuse either.

At this point I'm not sure if I'm better off throwing the stock calipers back on and getting a big rotor adapter, some nice pads, and ss lines as it might be more durable than these Wilwoods and offer a more balanced brake bias...
As for rebuild, I have no idea how to do it although I see replacement o-rings and pistons are available for a reasonable price, guess I'll be making some calls tomorrow.

Any way, have yet to hear any negative reviews from owners about this BBK so I wanted to put this out there for those considering this kit.
Also looking for any tips to make this kit work

 

[WhiteFords]

My impressions of Wilwood components is that they are at the low end of the aftermarket brake manufacturers. I do not like how they feel that piston seals are not necessary for street cars. The lack of piston seals in their calipers is probably what caused your issue.

 

[Siestarider]

I have Chuckable's used Willwood BBK in garage. Stock brakes and Oem pads (with CMB cooling and Quaife) are not limiting my track times, even with stickier tires. Although front rotors are starting to heat check, but 20 track days will have some effect.

I hesitate to mount WW BBK because I feel car is already a little over-biased toward front brakes on track, do not want more. I also want the SVT rears.

I have read several negative reviews on WW kit, excessive rotor wear mostly. There should be some way to estimate how much TC intervenes on track, but I have not found it. Just about has to be a large factor in front brake heat and wear tracking

Why do you think softer pads would reduce heat? Just curious. My thinking is that regardless of pad type, heat production should be directly related to decel rate and mass.

I bought the WW kit assuming I would eventually need it on track. Thanks for posting, hope the calipers are easy to rebuild.

 

[Noodles]

When I spoke to Rotora about their system, they told me that nearly every FWD car they build a brake system for, has too much bias up front. That coupled with the torque vectoring, and no seals, might be the issue.

Sent from the Canyon's Edge

 

[stormcrow]

My impressions of Wilwood components is that they are at the low end of the aftermarket brake manufacturers. I do not like how they feel that piston seals are not necessary for street cars. The lack of piston seals in their calipers is probably what caused your issue.

When I spoke to Rotora about their system, they told me that nearly every FWD car they build a brake system for, has too much bias up front. That coupled with the torque vectoring, and no seals, might be the issue.

Sent from the Canyon's Edge

Lack of piston seals is categorically the issue. Willwood is, as said, on the lower-end of the aftermarket brake kit spectrum. They produce kits for most of the lower-cost vehicles for a reason. I wish some of the bigger BBK manufacturers would decide to work with the lower-cost vehicle market. StopTech, Alcon, AP Racing...these are the guys that I would like to see enter our market. I'm glad Rotora is easing our way. They are a good manufacturer, as well.

 

[Noodles]

I belive StopTech makes a kit for the front on the FiST as well. Rotora should be the first to market with a full front and rear system by the end of the year. At least [MENTION=997]justinsane[/MENTION] didn't have a whole caliper lock up mid corner or something. that would have been big trouble.

Sent from the Canyon's Edge

 

[justinsane]

Wouldn't be surprised if the lack of seals contributed to the failure. I think a softer compound in the front will tweak the brake bias a bit to the rear.
DTC-30 and Ferodo 2500 are quite different in terms of friction/hot bite.
Will be playing around with ducting as well but hope a 3" hose will clear no problem.

Saw a review of the new ST200 Fiesta supposedly having larger rear brakes, wonder if it's just a caliper bracket to run a larger rotor similar to the SVT setup. Would be very interested if that's the case.

 

[LilPartyBox]

Lack of piston seals is categorically the issue. Willwood is, as said, on the lower-end of the aftermarket brake kit spectrum. They produce kits for most of the lower-cost vehicles for a reason. I wish some of the bigger BBK manufacturers would decide to work with the lower-cost vehicle market. StopTech, Alcon, AP Racing...these are the guys that I would like to see enter our market. I'm glad Rotora is easing our way. They are a good manufacturer, as well.

Stoptech makes a kit.
http://www.fswerks.com/collections/...ts/stoptech-big-brake-kit-ford-fiesta-st-2014

AP Racing makes a kit.
https://www.apracing.com/product_de...ta_st_mk7-front_4_piston_kit-cp6637-1004.aspx

Alcon also makes a kit rebranded by Revo.
https://www.revotechnik.com/product-details/brakes/ford-fiesta-mk7-big-brake-kit&engineid=97

And yeah, lack of piston selas is exactly why I wouldn't even consider Willwood and never have. Gotta pay to play

 

[justinsane]

Stoptech makes a kit.
http://www.fswerks.com/collections/...ts/stoptech-big-brake-kit-ford-fiesta-st-2014

AP Racing makes a kit.
https://www.apracing.com/product_de...ta_st_mk7-front_4_piston_kit-cp6637-1004.aspx

Alcon also makes a kit rebranded by Revo.
https://www.revotechnik.com/product-details/brakes/ford-fiesta-mk7-big-brake-kit&engineid=97

And yeah, lack of piston selas is exactly why I wouldn't even consider Willwood and never have. Gotta pay to play

Those are some nice kits, definitely more robust but I think good brake bias would help, the fronts are just so much more powerful than the rear, not sure how that would affect braking distances.
The stock brakes had a decent balance and feel even with factory fluid but also don't hold up to hard track abuse.
I went Wilwood as I had a good experience with them on my Miata (granted a much lighter/balanced car) and with 11" rotors up front + 10" rear I had a great balance and feel.
With our front heavy cars and useless rear brakes I don't think the Wilwoods are strong enough despite what some users have reported.
Interestingly my Miata's 4-piston wilwoods are a direct fit on the Fiesta kit, I will be running those until I figure a long term solution out.

 

[stormcrow]

Stoptech makes a kit.
http://www.fswerks.com/collections/...ts/stoptech-big-brake-kit-ford-fiesta-st-2014

AP Racing makes a kit.
https://www.apracing.com/product_de...ta_st_mk7-front_4_piston_kit-cp6637-1004.aspx

Alcon also makes a kit rebranded by Revo.
https://www.revotechnik.com/product-details/brakes/ford-fiesta-mk7-big-brake-kit&engineid=97

And yeah, lack of piston selas is exactly why I wouldn't even consider Willwood and never have. Gotta pay to play

Superb finds. Honestly, I had not even looked at the big manufacturers to see if they produced a kit for our cars. A BBK is not yet on my radar but is part of the roadmap. The Alcon (Revo) kit is the way to go, in my opinion. Crazy that it's 1/4 the cost of the R35 GT-R kit I bought when they first came out. So much cheaper to mod the Fiesta with nice things.

 

[WhiteFords]

Stoptech makes a kit.
http://www.fswerks.com/collections/...ts/stoptech-big-brake-kit-ford-fiesta-st-2014

AP Racing makes a kit.
https://www.apracing.com/product_de...ta_st_mk7-front_4_piston_kit-cp6637-1004.aspx

Alcon also makes a kit rebranded by Revo.
https://www.revotechnik.com/product-details/brakes/ford-fiesta-mk7-big-brake-kit&engineid=97

And yeah, lack of piston selas is exactly why I wouldn't even consider Willwood and never have. Gotta pay to play

Damn truth right here. I know two Wilwood sponsored guys who race on a national level. But I cannot bring myself to buy what I see as an inferior and poorly engineered product. Just because the parts bolt on do not make them compatible with a factory engineered brake system. When I feel that my brakes are my limiting factor on the track, i'm going straight to Stoptech.

 

[RAAMaudio]

I have owned and tracked most major brands and some lessor know brands and never had issues with WW but a few with other BBK companies products, I am typically pretty hard on brakes.

Dust seals are for street brakes and I have melted some expensive BBK brand seals on track.

If you drive the car a lot and in inclement weather the WW calipers are not likely a good thing for your needs unless you clean them out at least once in awhile.

I think the issue is more to do with TVC and especially so if you leave the other nannies on, since you cannot disable TVC an LSD is a better investment than a very expensive BBK it would seem and if that does not fix it then look into more money into other BBKs.


WW is used on thousands of race cars and no not a top name or in some ways top quality product for certain applications but done right they are great, unfortunately the BBK offered does not have the best caliper though the new version of the Dynapro does look stiffer with the center bridge.

Fastbrakes will be developing an ST kit using the Superlite calipers, thicker pads, lower profile, I would of already built my own after DIY front and rear 6 piston Dynapro and 4 piston ....I forget the name at the moment, 11.75 front, 11.00 rear with parking brake "ears" to fit under 15x9 wheels(now can fit 15x8 6UL with the latest mods) but I no longer have a house, big insulated shop, lift.....RVing has it limits!

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Update:

12.19" is not a big rotor and if not using the GT which has more thermal mass and better air flow due to the vane design. That could be part of the issue as well, likely so. I am using a bit smaller at 11.75 GT but the same weight as the regular 12.19 rotors shipped with the WW BBK, the GT 12.19 is the way to go, more mass and better air flow as they fit with the regular WW BBK and at least some 16 and most 17" wheels.

Brake ducts are a vialble option on this car as well, you can fed them via the fog light openings, next to them or if you have a splitter seal it up and have a 3/4x30+ inch opening for lots of air flow for cooling, I posted a bit about this but have not updated all the new mods yet.

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Another issue often overlooked, heavy wheels and tires put a hugely higher load on the brakes, if running stock which are pretty dang heavy wheels, that will cause more more brake problems.

 

[gronktired]

I've done three track days at the ridge and destroyed the brakes each time. There are some threads here from other members who have had brake issues there too. My guess is that it's laid out so you can keep the TVC going almost constantly, never giving the brakes a good chance to cool. After a couple sessions the pads are totally glazed over and I may as well be pressing rocks against the rotors.

I've resigned myself to chickening out on turns 11 and 13. :/

 

[stormcrow]

Dust seals are for street brakes and I have melted some expensive BBK brand seals on track.

Correction - dust boots are for street brakes. Seals are, and should be, internal. Note how AP Racing and Alcon build their calipers. Wilwood includes neither boots nor seals. They rely on tolerances. This is just a way to keep costs down. The truth is, they're the Autozone equivalent of aftermarket BBKs. As with nearly anything in life, you get what you pay for.

 

[RAAMaudio]

MY BAD, another long hot mod day in the AZ heat and a few good brews to cool off, of course dust boots and seals are completely different......

If I start having serious issues with my WW setup I will of course look at other options but for now doing a good job but I have not tracked the car in a long time, will pretty soon though and get a good idea of what to expect or what turns up if not a good thing. With what I have learned from putting together my rear 4 piston, two piece rotor setup from scratch and redoing the WW Fiesta kit to fit 11.75 rotors under 15's(a lot of work went into it and quite a bit of money) I could dig in and find parts to build up a different kit if needed, AP might be a fun one to work out

My front and rear kits are pretty close to being a larger and higher capability stock bias than just doing a front BBK, I paid particular attention to that, and I can fine tune with compounds easily enough so bias is not an issue I have to deal with.

 

[Siestarider]

"My front and rear kits are pretty close to being a larger and higher capability stock bias than just doing a front BBK, I paid particular attention to that, and I can fine tune with compounds easily enough so bias is not an issue I have to deal with."

I know zip about balancing front and rear bias with pad compounds. Is there a way to predict this by anything other than experimenting with different pads? Mainly interested in more rear braking, would softer pads add more bite at the cost of pad wear, or harder pads at cost of rotor wear?

 

[Ryephile]

Correction - dust boots are for street brakes. Seals are, and should be, internal. Note how AP Racing and Alcon build their calipers. Wilwood includes neither boots nor seals. They rely on tolerances. This is just a way to keep costs down. The truth is, they're the Autozone equivalent of aftermarket BBKs. As with nearly anything in life, you get what you pay for.

Whoops. Here's the page from Summit's catalog.

Your opinion about Wilwood's quality is noted, but it won't stop racers from successfully using them. The outright track record holder at my nearby circuit is a Wilwood equipped car.


Here's the link for Wilwood's caliper rebuild guide: http://www.wilwood.com/Pdf/HowToStories/Caliper_Rebuild.pdf

 

[Ryephile]

Those are some nice kits, definitely more robust but I think good brake bias would help, the fronts are just so much more powerful than the rear, not sure how that would affect braking distances.
The stock brakes had a decent balance and feel even with factory fluid but also don't hold up to hard track abuse.
I went Wilwood as I had a good experience with them on my Miata (granted a much lighter/balanced car) and with 11" rotors up front + 10" rear I had a great balance and feel.
With our front heavy cars and useless rear brakes I don't think the Wilwoods are strong enough despite what some users have reported.
Interestingly my Miata's 4-piston wilwoods are a direct fit on the Fiesta kit, I will be running those until I figure a long term solution out.

What size rotor are you running? If it's stock then there's half your problem. Also, what tire compound and size? If you're on street tires then there's something terribly wrong with the setup. Have you done any thermal measurements for caliper, pad, and rotor, other than noting that they're all roasted? To get a piston to distort in the bore is very unusual, no matter what brand is written on the outside.

I've run pretty much every brand of brakes over the years on various track cars, and in the end it comes down to having the correctly spec'd components with rational hydraulic bias, pads that match your thermal range and mu preference, and learning to not over-brake. Two cars can have the exact same setup, and a bad driver in one car will destroy the brakes with no improvement in lap time.

 

[BostonDriver]

I've done several track days with the Wilwood BBK and the difference is unreal compared to the stock brakes. Pads will definitely make a huge difference in feel and rotor wear and I've come to find out, but I've found a combo that works well on the street and track without significant rotor wear. Originally I used the rotors that came with the kit and Wilwood Polymatrix B pads. Performance was insane but the rotors took a beating I just 2 trackdays and needed replacing. I went the the GT rotors and DP-20 pads next and I've been happy with the street/track performance. They're not as good on the track as the Polymatrix B but they don't eat rotors and are still much better than stock. I'll know how the SVT rear setup is very soon since its sitting waiting to be installed as I write this. I haven't really had any issue with the brake bias, but I've also learned to only run with TC completely off during track events. Even running in sport mode will begin to overheat the fronts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Siestarider]

I read the Wilwood caliper rebuild instructions, every piston has an "o" ring type seal in caliper bore just inside the piston face. Looks to me like that is the only place fluid could escape, pistons only come in/out past that seal.

Something wrong with that design?