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Talk me out of the madness of trying to compete in STH

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#1
So, I ran my FiST for the first season up here in H Street in my local SCCA and Porsche Club autocrosses, and did fairly well.
I have been thinking about moving up to STH, because I would really like a Quaife for winter driving, and I don't want to be swapping that in and out for every season.
We don't run car classes up here in AK, because we rarely have more than 30 or so competitors at any event, and we just run a PAX index. I'm thinking I'd be demolished with an STH index, but can't help but think it would be fun nonetheless...any thoughts?
 


alexrex20

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#2
Since classing is limited, there's no point in comparing yourself to others in your "class." Compare yourself to yourself. Or race on a real track like us big boys. Do you have any road courses near you?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 


OP
Pablo Pistoffo
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Thread Starter #3
Sadly, no. We don't have any road courses up here at all...
I really enjoyed my limited time on track down at the Octane Academy, though, and managed to take home a little cone.
 


alexrex20

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#4
I may not be the best to give advice about autox since I don't like it, but I am competitive and I am a track whore so I can appreciate the appeal of autox. For me personally, I like to build my car exactly how I want it, then go compete in it. I don't like having to stay within X and Y otherwise breakout into a higher class. F that. Since your only real options are autox, then I say do it!

How is the rallycross scene up there?
 


OP
Pablo Pistoffo
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Thread Starter #5
How is the rallycross scene up there?
Rallycross is good! I did my first season last winter- we do it on a frozen lake, with fairly big berms, so a buddy and I went halvsies on $600 '93 Loyale with surprisingly good results- nothing like beating Evos and WRXs with an old POS grocery getter. I may run the FiST once I get the diff in, which I think I'll do now. Thanks for the encouragement!
View attachment 18600
 


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OP
Pablo Pistoffo
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Thread Starter #6
So, I pulled the trigger on the Quaife, and it just shipped today. I'm talking things over with a well-regarded local tuner, and this is what I've come up with as a plan of attack, but would certainly be open to any suggestions:
  1. Quife ATB diff
  2. Enkei J10 16x7 wheels
  3. 205/45R16 RE-71Rs
  4. Mountune RMM
  5. Bilstein B6s all around
  6. Lowering springs? Interested in your thoughts
  7. Accessport with protune for 90 octane
  8. Maybe a seat? I have the non-Recaros, and I still slip around a little, even with the
  9. Schroth Quick-fit Harness
 


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#7
Competing in any class usually means running the most tire you are allowed and are able to fit. I think you should run wider wheels and more tire, imho
 


OP
Pablo Pistoffo
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Thread Starter #8
Competing in any class usually means running the most tire you are allowed and are able to fit. I think you should run wider wheels and more tire, imho
I was thinking the same thing, I'm still neck deep in the regs vs looking up what could work. STH limits the tires to 265s, which I don't think would really limit what's available/what would fit.
Would 15" rims be a viable alternative? (cheaper rims and rubber, plus some lowering to avoid the tippyness would be nice.)
 


alexrex20

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#9
I am not familiar at all with the regs of STH but based on your list, I would say YES to all of it lol. For lowering springs I would get the Swift since they're linear. I am on Eibach Pro springs which are progressive rate and though I don't regret them, I kinda wish I got the Swifts because people rave about them.

If you can add chassis bracing in your class, I very strongly recommend a Pierce 6pt brace. I would also do an Eibach rear sway bar and the base model Fiesta front sway bar. IIRC, the FiST is 18mm and the standard Fiesta is 21mm. The Eibach front sway is even bigger and people tend to agree that it's a bit too much and makes the car want to push.

I slip and slide in my non-Recaro seat and am currently trying to figure out the best solution. I'd rather not drop the dough on a full replacement but if I can't find an ST/RS Recaro to retrofit that may be the only reasonable option. It's certainly fatiguing trying to muscle yourself steady in the seat.
 


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#10
Im not sure, but if coilovers are allowed I would go that route. You could raise the car and put blizzaks on it for winter driving, and lower it in the summer for racin
 


OP
Pablo Pistoffo
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Thread Starter #11
I'm still trying to parse the rules for bracing, but they seem to limit it to just fore/aft subframe connectors. I may need to get on the SCCA forums to get a read on legality.

The Schroth I ran this season certainly helped, but I was thinking a Sparco Sprint seat would allow me to drop down lower in the car, and save a few pounds (they weigh close to the minimum 25# limit)

I put the rear Bilsteins in last night, replacing the Koni Yellows, and was impressed with how much better balanced the car was. I had the Konis set at about 3/4 stiff, but they sucked at daily driving and seemed to be somehow less willing to rotate than the Bilsteins. The ability to adjust was nice, but I've decided I'm not a chassis engineer (plus it was a pain). I did think about doing the Bilstein p14 coilovers, but that may have to wait due to funds availability, and just run some spring to compliment the shocks and lower the CG.
 


OP
Pablo Pistoffo
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Thread Starter #12
Im not sure, but if coilovers are allowed I would go that route. You could raise the car and put blizzaks on it for winter driving, and lower it in the summer for racin
Yeah, I may have to wait on coils because of funding - I just got a set of Nokian Hakkapeliitta 9s on 15" steelies for winter duty- will probably throw them on here this weekend.
 


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#13
So with Bilstein B6 all around now and the stock springs, are you happy with the balance and overall ride? Similar control and responsiveness to the oem setup? Smoother ride?

I've heard the B14 PSS kits don't allow you to keep the car around factory height which would pose a problem with your winter setup.
 


kevinatfms

Senior Member
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#14
Grab a CG Lock for the seat issue. For $50 its better than any other option i have found. Just yank it down right before your run and its plenty to hold me in during an autocross run.
 


OP
Pablo Pistoffo
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Thread Starter #15
So with Bilstein B6 all around now and the stock springs, are you happy with the balance and overall ride? Similar control and responsiveness to the oem setup? Smoother ride?

I've heard the B14 PSS kits don't allow you to keep the car around factory height which would pose a problem with your winter setup.
I love the ride as it is now, but I didn't have much time with it before I had to put the steelies and winter tires on. The car is much more composed, and I felt better on turn-in than I did with the Koni Yellows in the rear at ~3/4 stiff. I wish I had had the Bilsteins all around for an event. We have really poor pavement up here on most of our venues, so perhaps the stiffer Konis would perform better on better surfaces. Another driver that has autocrossed an ST in previous seasons was impressed as well.
 


RAAMaudio

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#16
I agree, build it the way you want and run whatever PAX you have to, way more fun that way even if not the top dog you can be happy with beating cars that are supposed to be faster, something I have done for decades after I got tired of winning all the time.

Wider wheels absolutely though in most cases pick tires based on real specs like tread width, section width, weight, etc but also ones noted for the best grip and feedback even if a bit narrower. I generally run 205s on 8's, 225's on 9's, etc but in autocrossing you can sometimes be faster on wider tires like a 225 on an 8.

Consider 4x100 conversion, my 15x8 6UL wheels are 11.4 lbs, single biggest overall improvement to any modded car is lighter weight wheels and tires as it improves every single aspect of performance and reduces wear on the suspension and chassis and will ride better, all things balanced out like spring rates, dampers, etc...

Sway bars, likely not needed, upgrade front bushings and get adjustable links to take out any preload.

Sleeved suspension bushings can really help the car react more directly since not winding up and down like rubber bushings do when flexing.

Take all the weight off you can, move some to the rear, keep it low and best between the axles and centered or offset to passenger side to better cross balance the car. Add weight only if absolutely needed.


Forget braces very likely only going to make the car slower by adding weight as the car is quite stiff already, spend the money on real performance, not placebo parts. The only brace I have is a two point on the front crossmember I made from scrap metal, two bolts and two rivnuts. I have built many autocross and track cars up to full race cars and studied every major suspension book published so have a pretty good clue of what I advise but of course there are always exceptions

My car is setup for street and track so a few things mentioned might need addressing a bit differently for the rapid fire weight shifts of autocrossing but I would not stray to far. Unfortunately many parts are made for profit with little or no real testing to improve anything but the bottom line of the company making the parts and those selling them. If a part added weight and made the car faster it would have it as long as it did not slow it down in one area or more just to be faster in another aspect, all about balance, in all things.

Rick
 


RAAMaudio

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#17
Coilovers, highly recommended with adjustable ride height but also consider summer and winter springs as taller softer springs will be much better in the slippery conditions of winter.
 


OP
Pablo Pistoffo
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Thread Starter #18
Hi Rick,
Thanks for chiming in- I have read with interest a couple of your other posts re:tire and wheel selection. Unfortunately, the STH class doesn't allow me to modify and/or replace the hubs with non-standard units. With Team Dynamics seemingly out of the US market, I was wondering if you might have some suggestions for a good lightweight 15x8 wheel; failing that I was thinking about going with some Ultraleggeras (15x7, 12 pounds ea.) with some locally available 205/50R15 RE71Rs.

I was fairly happy with my previous Enkei J10s with 205/50R16 REs, but the OZs would be 4.7 pounds lighter per corner, and allow a half inch drop in height with no suspension geometry penalty.

I was also thinking of pairing those with a set of Swift springs for the summer, switching back to stock for our Alaskan winters. My only concern is pairing the Swifts with my B6s- I really don't want to unnecessarily damage the Bilsteins, but money is a consideration, and it is hard to justify another set of shocks...

I'll definitely look into bushings, as they are allowed in my class, as long as they don't have more metal than the stock units.

I'd certainly be interested in your thoughts on this!

Cheers,
Paul
 


RAAMaudio

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#19
I am not aware of any light weight 15x8 in 4x018 but the tires you are looking at though very sticky are rather narrow so perhaps a 7" wheel would be fine with them, probably so for autocross use.

Take a look at that tire in 205/16, .1" wider tread which is not big deal, same weight and rounded off they show 19lbs versus the 21lbs listed for the 15. Check out the Konig 16x8 wheel weight compared to the wheels you are looking at, etc....just might be a better way to go and you can fit a BBK if you wanted to.

I believe the bushings will net about the same amount of metal as stock ones usually have a metal outer ring and urethane ones do not.
 


RAAMaudio

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#20
I am not aware of any light weight 15x8 in 4x018 but the tires you are looking at though very sticky are rather narrow so perhaps a 7" wheel would be fine with them, probably so for autocross use.

Take a look at that tire in 205/16, .1" wider tread which is not big deal, same weight and rounded off they show 19lbs versus the 21lbs listed for the 15. Check out the Konig Dekagram 16x8 wheel weight compared to the wheels you are looking at, etc....just might be a better way to go and you can fit a BBK if you wanted to.

Consider this, a 40mm 8" wheel will increase the track width approx 30mm which is pretty considerable and yet not be that upsetting to the geometry.
Also the wider wheel means more sidewall support so will help turn in response, feedback and control, cobine that with shorter sidewalls and you can probably run a bit less air pressure for a better contact patch.
They might weigh around 3 lbs per wheel but the tires are approx 2 lbs less and the actual difference might be even less than 1 lb per corner added weight but even if 2lbs I would likely go for it and I am SUPER ANAL about weight.
Cost is around $100 less per wheel, money saved can go for other mods.
Both wheels are very good quality, a lot of cars are being raced on the Konig flow formed wheels.

I have advocated 16x8 as the optimal wheel for this car for a very long time, if not for the huge effort and cost into building my own BBKs to fit under 15's, changing the rear camber to fit 9" wide wheels, etc...I would be running those Konigs!

I believe the bushings will net about the same amount of metal as stock ones usually have a metal outer ring and urethane ones do not.
 




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