PLEASE help me diagnose this BRAKE issue! (rotational chirping/squealing)

[Seijou]

Hi,

Please help me diagnose this brake issue. I thought this issue was fixed, but it is still plaguing me.

Full story:
The brakes were making a LOT of noise. While coasting at any speed, and also while braking. Lots of different pitches. Sounded like a rotational squeal. I was also getting a bunch of other 'noises', such as a low metal scraping/growl while coming to a stop. I took it in to the dealer, they said it was a faulty brake pad clip on the front brakes. The clip was scratching against the rotor. Since the front brakes were done by them very recently (<1000miles), it was still under parts warranty. But they tried to push the clip back into place and sent me home.

The noise returned as soon as I left the lot. I brought it back the next day, and they said they could not adjust the clip (wouldn't stay in place). They replaced pads and resurfaced rotors, and sent me home.

Again, the noise returned as soon as I left the lot. I called them to let them know, and scheduled another appointment. The car was left with them for a week. Everything looked normal to them and they couldn't figure it out. They contacted Ford hotline, and finally concluded that the brake pad material was bad from the factory. They repeated the same procedure - replaced pads and resurfaced front rotors. All noise went away for about 1.5 weeks.

In all past occurrences, it has been easy to capture on film and audio. This time, it's hard to demonstrate and hard to replicate consistently. Some days, it will happen 90% of the time I brake. It's hard to hear on film, but it's actually quite annoying in person. Other days, it'll happen about 25% of the time but will be hard to pinpoint (however, you can hear it in the background as you drive/brake). I have already tried an emergency brake in a controlled environment to dislodge any potential rock that may have been stuck. The issue remains. I don't think it is related to rust build up, or heat, or any other factors.


Please see my videos. It may help to listen with earphones at a higher volume. You can hear the pitch and rate of chirping also changes with the speed. On the highway, it's a very fast chirp. At slower speeds, it's a slower chirp.

Probably best video --- In this video, you can begin to hear it at 3 seconds. It lasts until I stop braking, around 10 seconds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJi8WnVil7Y

In this video you can begin to hear the squealing/chirping starting at 1 or 2 seconds into the video. It continues until the end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukJ5BAj4NHU

In this video, you can faintly hear it in the background. I was on the highway, braking from 65 to 40 or so. It starts around 4 seconds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub5LKU4McT4

I would greatly appreciate any insight you might have!!! Is it the calipers (the pistons?), is it possible that the front rotors are bad (how could they still be bad after being resurfaced?), is it possible the rear brakes (pads have plenty of life, no lip on rotor)...?

Sincerely,
Seijou

 

[GAbOS]

Rust is only an issue for brakes for the first few uses, if it's light. It sounds like you actually use your car so zero rust should be happening.

It's very tough to hear in your video at speed with road noise. Can you get one at low speed?

If I think* I heard anything, it was a low growl of a noise, very metallic.

 

[Seijou]

Rust is only an issue for brakes for the first few uses, if it's light. It sounds like you actually use your car so zero rust should be happening.

It's very tough to hear in your video at speed with road noise. Can you get one at low speed?

If I think* I heard anything, it was a low growl of a noise, very metallic.

Yeah -- I use my car daily and do not live in a high-humidity area.

Did you try with headphones & turning the volume up a bit (not to the point where it would be uncomfortable). It's definitely there. I have previous videos where the issue was VERY bad (before the pads were replaced and rotors resurfaced), I will upload so you can get an idea of the 'noise'. Will report back shortly.

 

[Seijou]

It's very tough to hear in your video at speed with road noise. Can you get one at low speed?

If I think* I heard anything, it was a low growl of a noise, very metallic.

Here is a previously record videos where the issue is much louder (previous to new pads). The first time Ford replaced brake pads & resurfaced the front rotors, it did nothing. These videos were taken around that time to show a service advisor. I brake, accelerate, brake, accelerate, etc. The second time they replaced brake pads & resurfaced, it solved the issue. Again, it was quiet for 1.5 weeks, then started making noise again. All products were OEM. The front rotors were within spec to be resurfaced (they were plenty thick).

Listen @ 0:01, 0:34, 0:45. Sorry it's not so easy on the ears.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bXbi42dpRo

This one is pulling off the highway and slowing down on the offramp.
Starts at 0:02 all the way to 0:42
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVXRhsOnLdY

Again -- the current issue is basically identical in noise (as these two videos), just a bit more subtle and therefore harder to capture on camera. My suspicion is that the root cause is the same.

 

[stormcrow]

Off the top of my head, there are a few things that I can think of that may be causing your issue. Firstly, the chirping can be cause by glazed pads or pads with anti-seize, brake fluid, or grease on them. The pads are seemingly new, so I wouldn't think they are glazed. If they are, however, you can pull them and scuff the friction material with sandpaper to try and remedy. If the pads are tainted with grease or such, they will need to be replaced.

Secondly, have you bedded your brakes? If not, try that and see if it doesn't work out for you. I bed mine by finding a straight, lesser traveled road, and braking from about 60mph down to 25mph as hard as I can roughly 10 times. You will smell burning brakes, but this is ok. You want them to get this hot to bed in properly. If there is surface grease or other contaminants on the pads, this process should burn them off, as well. (you will most likely see smoke as the contaminants burn off...don't be frightened. I've actually set brake dust afire bedding brakes in on track cars)

 

[Seijou]

Off the top of my head, there are a few things that I can think of that may be causing your issue. Firstly, the chirping can be cause by glazed pads or pads with anti-seize, brake fluid, or grease on them. The pads are seemingly new, so I wouldn't think they are glazed. If they are, however, you can pull them and scuff the friction material with sandpaper to try and remedy. If the pads are tainted with grease or such, they will need to be replaced.

Secondly, have you bedded your brakes? If not, try that and see if it doesn't work out for you. I bed mine by finding a straight, lesser traveled road, and braking from about 60mph down to 25mph as hard as I can roughly 10 times. You will smell burning brakes, but this is ok. You want them to get this hot to bed in properly. If there is surface grease or other contaminants on the pads, this process should burn them off, as well. (you will most likely see smoke as the contaminants burn off...don't be frightened. I've actually set brake dust afire bedding brakes in on track cars)

I don't have any access to tools or garage/space, so I can't easily tell you if the pads are glazed. But each time it has been with Ford, they didn't mention anything. Since they're so new, I wouldn't think they're glazed either. When I take the vehicle in again, I can ask for them to check, but I imagine that's part of their normal protocol.

I bedded in the last set of 'new' brake pads. It didn't help, which left me very confused and wondering if it was some other component of my brake system.

Edit: I also remember reading these pads are bedded from the factory. Not sure if true.

 

[Seijou]

I was able to contact my regional service manager today and they will work to get the vehicle back in the shop. Thumbs up for Ford... great communication.

Any tips, suggestions, comments you guys might have would be GREATLY appreciated, as Ford has tired to remedy this situation three times now without success (and, to add, they are quite stumped by it).

 

[1azst]

Have you tried a different dealer? If not, you should.

 

[Seijou]

Have you tried a different dealer? If not, you should.

I did call a different one yesterday, but their recommendation was to stick with the same dealer, because if it's a workmanship issue (i.e. rotors were not cut right), they cannot warranty the work and fix the issue. I guess the other benefit would be that this particular dealer already knows whats going on with my vehicle.

 

[1azst]

Any brake vibration?

 

[LilPartyBox]

Have they replaced the guide pins yet?

Also, the dealer needs to stop cutting corners and replace the rotors. That's just nonsense.

 

[Seijou]

Any brake vibration?

No discernible brake vibration. Previously, I could definitely 'feel' a grind in the pedal (and hear a low growling) while slowly coming to a stop. That stopped after the 2nd set of pads & resurface.

Have they replaced the guide pins yet?

Also, the dealer needs to stop cutting corners and replace the rotors. That's just nonsense.

Can you tell me what guide pins are?

To my knowledge, they only replaced the pads (which come with some type of 'clips', I assume to keep them in place). It's packaged as a whole set.

 

[1azst]

Think he means caliper slides. In my mind, it sounds like either pads squeaking on the anti rattle clips, or a hard spot on a rotor. So unless you have a bent hub from an impact, rotor should do it.

 

[stormcrow]

I don't have any access to tools or garage/space, so I can't easily tell you if the pads are glazed. But each time it has been with Ford, they didn't mention anything. Since they're so new, I wouldn't think they're glazed either. When I take the vehicle in again, I can ask for them to check, but I imagine that's part of their normal protocol.

I bedded in the last set of 'new' brake pads. It didn't help, which left me very confused and wondering if it was some other component of my brake system.

Edit: I also remember reading these pads are bedded from the factory. Not sure if true.

Try aggressive bedding on the current pads. Not to try and sort the issue, but to see if you can get any of them to smoke. If they smoke, you'll know there is some form of contaminant on the pad(s). This could be as simple as them dropping brake fluid on a pad (or pads) or getting grease on a pad (or pads). Start with the simplest things first and weed them out.

 

[LilPartyBox]

There are two guide pins per caliper. They mechanically align the top half of the caliper and the pads as the pistons compress onto the rotors.

I'm assuming that since ur replacing brakes that ur mileage is high enough that the pins, if not changed, can stick causing uneven application of brake force or calipers that drag (don't release fully). They're a simple part to change but I wouldn't be surprised they weren't changed, considering the incompetence this dealer has already shown.

 

[Seijou]

Start with the simplest things first and weed them out.

Good point.

There are two guide pins per caliper. They mechanically align the top half of the caliper and the pads as the pistons compress onto the rotors.

I'm assuming that since ur replacing brakes that ur mileage is high enough that the pins, if not changed, can stick causing uneven application of brake force or calipers that drag (don't release fully). They're a simple part to change but I wouldn't be surprised they weren't changed, considering the incompetence this dealer has already shown.

Ah, the caliper slider pins. I will mention that to the dealer, and also ask that they make sure to grease it properly. Dealer contacted me briefly today but I think they were too busy and will expect to hear from them tomorrow. I will push for rotor replacement due to defective front rotors (and, after all we tried to resolve the issue, I think it's time). If I can have them take care of the pins too, as a proactive measure, it would be awesome.

BTW - Mileage is at 26k.

 

[Seijou]

I received the vehicle back yesterday. This was a little complicated as my normal service advisor wasn't there, and someone else (tried) to explain to me what was going on.

The notes say they determined "excessive runout" at both rotors beyond factory specification. Rotors were machined but then they were below 21mm, so they replaced them. However, the paperwork they gave me does not explicitly state that rotors were replaced (however, I do see the parts listed "2 ROTOR ASY - BRAKE"....) - I will ask for more clear service paperwork stating the rotors were replace. It also does not mention what happened to the brake pads, so I asked. The (replacement) service advisor did not know, and suggested they probably resurfaced and reused (since pads were newly replaced with the last attempt to resolve this issue).

The issue came back as soon as I got the vehicle home.

I have noticed lack of detail in documenting the issue. In the last encounter, the service advisor describes the complaint as "brakes are squeaking", but really, it's a rotational squeaking/squealing/chirping that occurs upon braking. It's frequency changes with the speed of the vehicle.

Last time I was there, they tried to tell me it's because of my aggressive compound of the OEM brake pads. I disagree due to the nature of the noise. It is not a constant squealing like you hear when someone comes to a stop with past-due brakes, but since it's rotational I thought it was a hard spot on the rotor or an issue with the calipers. If they just replaced the rotors (still need to confirm with my normal service advisor), I don't have any other guesses (I was hoping they would be the experts in this matter).

These are new brakes. They should be relatively quiet without squealing, chirping, grinding, etc that makes everyone turn over to look at you when you come to a stop. Another point about their claim that the reason is because of my pads -- I saw a Focus RS in the lot (being serviced) the same morning I dropped off my vehicle. I bet it doesn't have the same rotational squealing and chirping, despite being a sporty vehicle. What about every other Focus or Fiesta ST that is being serviced? How are their brakes? I've surveyed a number of individuals and found they have no issues at all. If they have some slight low-speed noise, it's nothing close to resembling my symptoms.

I'm not sure what to do now. Should I suggest the hub or the calipers? I'll call the service advisor and the service manager first thing Monday morning. Feeling very frustrated about the whole issue.

 

[1azst]

They could measure hub run out with a dial indicator, but will they? Probably not. Working at a dealer myself, I've seen a lot of hacks come and go. Some shops are worse than others, I'd try a different one or contact Ford corporate. Sorry man.

 

[Thirty-Two]

If it's not vibrating under braking it's improbable of it being improper hub run-out. Possible, but not likely.

If the pads themselves are not uneven, the rotors aren't warped or spotted or scored and the entire brake assembly had already been completely redone with new parts and by a good tech, and you continue to have problems. First make sure they are doing the work correctly and that the parts are truly being replaced.

How would you do this? If you don't have access to a simple lift, and jack stands find a friend who does. Otherwise even though you don't have a garage space, it's a great time to get some jack stands and a lift. Go out to an Autozone parking lot where there are employees that really know there stuff and work on the car there. LOOK at everything for yourself. Test everything. Check everything. One way is to put the car up level on jackstands. Remove one front tire and have someone slowly accelerate to 10mph then brake. Stay on the brake, shut engine off, check for play or anything abnormal. Spin the hub yourself. Repeat for other side. Have both wheels off and have someone turn, listen and observe. Then when going out on a drive test to see if the problem is more noticable when turning and braking or turning and accelerating. Carry the lift and stand around with you. As soon as the sounds come back. Hop out, do the entire check again. If you are not mechanically inclined, find a friend who is, otherwise just observe and take pictures and jot notes in detail of what the hub and brakes and all are doing.

I had a F150 before the Fiesta and it constantly had all the symptoms you described, but I never heard it "chirp". These problems were exacerbated by extreme heat/cold, carrying weight, and under braking. I noticed it most under braking. One trip after hauling a bobcat you could smell the brakes and there was smoking. Had to be something to do with the brakes or the hub. Decided to change the entire brake assembly all around and upgraded from OEM to quality aftermarket parts, because I was hauling trailers and needed the upgrades anyway. It braked much better, but the symptoms persisted. I changed the hub bearings out next. Problem solved.

 

[Seijou]

If it's not vibrating under braking it's improbable of it being improper hub run-out. Possible, but not likely.

If the pads themselves are not uneven, the rotors aren't warped or spotted or scored and the entire brake assembly had already been completely redone with new parts and by a good tech, and you continue to have problems. First make sure they are doing the work correctly and that the parts are truly being replaced.

How would you do this? If you don't have access to a simple lift, and jack stands find a friend who does. Otherwise even though you don't have a garage space, it's a great time to get some jack stands and a lift. Go out to an Autozone parking lot where there are employees that really know there stuff and work on the car there. LOOK at everything for yourself. Test everything. Check everything. One way is to put the car up level on jackstands. Remove one front tire and have someone slowly accelerate to 10mph then brake. Stay on the brake, shut engine off, check for play or anything abnormal. Spin the hub yourself. Repeat for other side. Have both wheels off and have someone turn, listen and observe. Then when going out on a drive test to see if the problem is more noticable when turning and braking or turning and accelerating. Carry the lift and stand around with you. As soon as the sounds come back. Hop out, do the entire check again. If you are not mechanically inclined, find a friend who is, otherwise just observe and take pictures and jot notes in detail of what the hub and brakes and all are doing.

I had a F150 before the Fiesta and it constantly had all the symptoms you described, but I never heard it "chirp". These problems were exacerbated by extreme heat/cold, carrying weight, and under braking. I noticed it most under braking. One trip after hauling a bobcat you could smell the brakes and there was smoking. Had to be something to do with the brakes or the hub. Decided to change the entire brake assembly all around and upgraded from OEM to quality aftermarket parts, because I was hauling trailers and needed the upgrades anyway. It braked much better, but the symptoms persisted. I changed the hub bearings out next. Problem solved.

Thirty-Two,

I appreciate your feedback. The noise is happening every single time I'm braking, unless I slam on the brakes hard. It has gotten more audible with this last service visit. It does not seem to be any worse or better with changes in heat/cold, or with turning, etc. I have spent a lot of 'seat time' to try and get reasonable explanations for the issue, and looking for patterns, but I am very much limited in my ability to check things myself. I have to be honest and say I don't know what I'm looking for. The pads have always looked new (very thick) when they were replaced. The rotors always looked like they had a clean, smooth surface when they were machined. With this last service, I didn't mark the old rotors so I don't have an easy way to tell if the new ones are in fact, 'new rotors'.

The noise is most audible stopping from about 40MPH down to 10MPH, so I'm not sure how I can replicate that while on jack stands.

What did your entire brake upgrade include? New rotors and pads? New calipers, too?