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Bar and Plate vs. Tube and Fin

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#1
Hello all, I have been shopping for an Intercooler. Right now, it will just need to support a few modest mods (think bolt on parts with a tune), but I wouldn't mind having the option of growing into it if I ever go crazy and start looking at turbo options. I am not exactly toting around Bill Gates or Oprah money but do not want to put junk on my car.

I believe the best way to get the most out of my money is to educate myself. I understand the basic differences in the two styles of construction but would like a little in put as what has worked best on these cars.

Does anyone have first hand experience with both a bar and plate style and a tube and fin style intercooler? Was there a noticeable advantage of one over the other?

EDIT: I ask here, because I have been learning a lot about these cars from reading here. I have been reading what is here about intercoolers and it has helped. A lot of what I am finding is brand specific and that is helpful, but I would like to learn a little more about how the two types perform in general.
 


TyphoonFiST

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#2
BAR AND FIN.....Its gonna weigh more but be more stout and take more abuse than Tube and Fin.....there are tons of intercoolers out there. What is your plan for your car? how far do you wanna take it? A good starting point is to write down a plan and stick to that....IMO.[rockon]
 


Dpro

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#3
Its not as simple as whats written above. Bar and Plate are denser cores from amphysical build standpoint which translates to they take longer to heatsoak. Now some people see this as an advantage. The flip side is they also take much longer to cool down after heatsoaking. They aslo do not flow air as well making them inefficent. Technically they were never designed for automotive applications.
Some people like bar and plate because they are sturdy but they are also heavier.

Tube and fin on the other hand were always daigned for automotive applications and nothing but. They flow air better, yes they can heat soak faster but they also cool down faster due to better cross flow.

In our cars Tube and fin is so much more efficient that after a lot of testing Mishimoto swapped their design from bar and plate to Tube and fin. Problem with Mishimoto is production line issues i.e. fitment and build qaulity. Plus poor customer service.

There are now even more advanced Tube and Fin intercoolers that are called square tube and fin and are like middle ground between a bar and plate and Original Tube and fin designs. They are stronger and lighter and still have excellent crossflow.
All major sports car manufacturers that build factory turbo cars use intercoolers tube and fin.

The Naysayers want to say its because its cheaper but seriiously when has Porsche been known to cut corners and yes their intercoolers on their Turbo cars are tube and fin.

Owned several Turbo cars in my life have used both types of intercoolers and I Would choose Tube and fin over bar and plate any day of the week.
 


TyphoonFiST

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Its not as simple as whats written above. Bar and Plate are denser cores from amphysical build standpoint which translates to they take longer to heatsoak. Now some people see this as an advantage. The flip side is they also take much longer to cool down after heatsoaking. They aslo do not flow air as well making them inefficent. Technically they were never designed for automotive applications.
Some people like bar and plate because they are sturdy but they are also heavier.

Tube and fin on the other hand were always daigned for automotive applications and nothing but. They flow air better, yes they can heat soak faster but they also cool down faster due to better cross flow.

In our cars Tube and fin is so much more efficient that after a lot of testing Mishimoto swapped their design from bar and plate to Tube and fin. Problem with Mishimoto is production line issues i.e. fitment and build qaulity. Plus poor customer service.

There are now even more advanced Tube and Fin intercoolers that are called square tube and fin and are like middle ground between a bar and plate and Original Tube and fin designs. They are stronger and lighter and still have excellent crossflow.
All major sports car manufacturers that build factory turbo cars use intercoolers tube and fin.

The Naysayers want to say its because its cheaper but seriiously when has Porsche been known to cut corners and yes their intercoolers on their Turbo cars are tube and fin.

Owned several Turbo cars in my life have used both types of intercoolers and I Would choose Tube and fin over bar and plate any day of the week.
I too have owned several Turbo and supercharged vehicles....you made me dig it up....here it is on why Bar and plate is a much more an advantageous intercooler for a front style mounted intercooler vehicle....

http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/0304-turp-intercooler/



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Last edited:

FocusMike

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#5
Hello all, I have been shopping for an Intercooler. Right now, it will just need to support a few modest mods (think bolt on parts with a tune), but I wouldn't mind having the option of growing into it if I ever go crazy and start looking at turbo options. I am not exactly toting around Bill Gates or Oprah money but do not want to put junk on my car.

I believe the best way to get the most out of my money is to educate myself. I understand the basic differences in the two styles of construction but would like a little in put as what has worked best on these cars.

Does anyone have first hand experience with both a bar and plate style and a tube and fin style intercooler? Was there a noticeable advantage of one over the other?

EDIT: I ask here, because I have been learning a lot about these cars from reading here. I have been reading what is here about intercoolers and it has helped. A lot of what I am finding is brand specific and that is helpful, but I would like to learn a little more about how the two types perform in general.
Did you see this post? https://www.fiestastforum.com/threads/3714-Fiesta-ST-Bar-amp-Plate-vs-Tube-amp-Fin-Intercoolers
 


alexrex20

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#7
Using oem is a poor example. Ford thought the radiator was adequate on our Fiesta ST and that has proven to not be the case.

Tube and fin may be better at dissipating heat, but at the expense of durability. The reason Porsche uses it is because they don't mount the intercooler at the front of the car where it's exposed to road debris.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 


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#8
on a build that is non-specific for a street car I look at 3 factors.
1. resale value if I want to sell it
2 can it meet the needs of my setup
3. is it going to add a bunch of weigh really far in front of the front wheels for no gain over a lighter one.

Woosh is meant to be dropping a new design in the next few days that looks promising. largest of the small cores at small core pricing. we will see. I'm likely getting one.
 


alexrex20

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#10
Fwiw, I don't know if my intercooler is bar and plate or tube and fin. Nor do I really care. All I know is it is a lot better than stock.

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koozy

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#11
I could careless, as long as it fits with little to no drama, and proven to perform and meets or exceeds the power potential of the setup.

I've got a DHM Race with an authentic Garrett bar/plate core, it's proven.

I don't care about splitting hairs over flow, weight, tubular crash bar, etc. That's all trivial to me.
 


TyphoonFiST

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#12
Using oem is a poor example. Ford thought the radiator was adequate on our Fiesta ST and that has proven to not be the case.

Tube and fin may be better at dissipating heat, but at the expense of durability. The reason Porsche uses it is because they don't mount the intercooler at the front of the car where it's exposed to road debris.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
This is why Front mount should be Bar and plate....more robust and resistant to wear and tear from the road that its driven on. The only reason ford didn't use it is the cost measure and ford being ford we all know how they like to operate sometimes.....[emoji6]


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Dpro

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#13
I too have owned several Turbo and supercharged vehicles....you made me dig it up....here it is on why Bar and plate is a much more an advantageous intercooler for a front style mounted intercooler vehicle....

http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/0304-turp-intercooler/



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Lol that is an old article close to 15 years old. Not only that but it was supported ay Spearco who happen to make only Bar and Plate cores. Lol they also compared an ancient Tube and fin design. To try and draw the comclusion. We used to call Super Street, Stupid Street. The guys behind the mag were SoCal street racers. I knew some of them as well lol. Interesting read not always accurate or unbiased on their reporting.

Hmm kinda sounds like a guy here who uses a lot of Meme’s J/k lol but you left the door wide open.
 


Dpro

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#14
Using oem is a poor example. Ford thought the radiator was adequate on our Fiesta ST and that has proven to not be the case.

Tube and fin may be better at dissipating heat, but at the expense of durability. The reason Porsche uses it is because they don't mount the intercooler at the front of the car where it's exposed to road debris.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
In the case of Ford and our cars yes are OEM are barely adequate in the Southwest climates of the U.S. lol thats becuase Texas, California, Arizona , New Mexico are high part desert.

The whole point of Square Tube and Fin is durability lol. Using the whole argument of becuase the intercooler is up front it must be Bar and Plate for durability is a weak argument. Any intercooler up front will take a beating regardless without a proper screen to protect it.
Facf is I used Porsche as an example but its not just them its all high End Turbo charged and factory turbo charged car manufactures.

Bar and Plate are so in favor these becuase while people cry that Tube and Fin are supposedly cheaper to make lots of Bar and Plate manufacturers went to to town making cores . Spearco pushed this hard because they make strictly Bar and Plate. Garrett went for it because of this.
Really we don’t want to get into a discussion about Garrett as they really have fallen behind the times in Turbo charger design as well. So ya Garrett cores make work ok it does not mesn they are the best, same with their Turbo’s.
 


koozy

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#15
I met George Spears and his wife at his shop located in Van Nuys in the '90s and used his core on my A2 GLI custom turbo with a Turbo Technics manifold as a base. Before Van Nuys they were located in West LA on Olympic.

In the 90s the choices were slim. You had HKS, Greddy a few other import options and Spearco. For the ease of application I went with Spearco and supported a local business who was supporting the booming local import aftermarket turbo scene. I had no issues with Spearco or their intercooler, but the industry has evolved since then and so have technological advancement with heat extractors/exchangers.



Garrett as it pertains to the Fiesta ST platform has set the bar. All things considered their GTX2860R Gen 2 is the most popular big turbo option many seek with it's proven performance and reliability. Garrett has been around along time servicing the aviation industry. The only other turbo mfg. I would consider their competition is Borg Warner.
 


Dpro

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#16
I met George Spears and his wife at his shop located in Van Nuys in the '90s and used his core on my A2 GLI custom turbo with a Turbo Technics manifold as a base. Before Van Nuys they were located in West LA on Olympic.

In the 90s the choices were slim. You had HKS, Greddy a few other import options and Spearco. For the ease of application I went with Spearco and supported a local business who was supporting the booming local import aftermarket turbo scene. I had no issues with Spearco or their intercooler, but the industry has evolved since then and so have technological advancement with heat extractors/exchangers.



Garrett as it pertains to the Fiesta ST platform has set the bar. All things considered their GTX2860R Gen 2 is the most popular big turbo option many seek with it's proven performance and reliability. Garrett has been around along time servicing the aviation industry. The only other turbo mfg. I would consider their competition is Borg Warner.
I get this and respect Spearco for the fact that they made intercoolers more readily available and made the industry competitive enough for manufactuers to raise the bar. As I remember the other options were preety much high end Japanese stuff. I just never agreed with his analysis that Bar and Plate were superior and specifically because it felt like an agenda on his and Turbonetics part. Ya One of the OG American drifters worked at Turbonetics Slide Sqaud Dave. Also a lot of KA24DE turbo guys relied on those companies for accesibilty to Turboimg the KA engined S13’s and S14’s.
As far as Garrett is concerned I was long a proponent of their Turbo’s built feel the Borg Warner EFR series has eclipsed them.
I don’t know if anyone has tried to adapt a EFR series to our car.It is funny though as the factory Turbo is a Borg Warner if I recall correctly. Therefor stuff like the Revo is based off the Borg Warner design.
 


OP
Z
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Thread Starter #17
on a build that is non-specific for a street car I look at 3 factors.
1. resale value if I want to sell it
2 can it meet the needs of my setup
3. is it going to add a bunch of weigh really far in front of the front wheels for no gain over a lighter one.

Woosh is meant to be dropping a new design in the next few days that looks promising. largest of the small cores at small core pricing. we will see. I'm likely getting one.
I have read in other threads about the upcoming Whoosh V2 FMIC. I actually have had a few things in my "cart" on the website since around thanksgiving but I am holding out to see what they are cooking up.
 


OP
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Thread Starter #18
So the main take away for me from this thread so far is that for front mount, Bar and Plate has an advantage of being more robust and slower to heat soak. Tube and Fin have better flow and will cool back down faster once it is heated.

Am I missing anything big?

I am also kind of figuring, 1..most any somewhat popular FMIC will better than what I have up front now, and 2...a lot of it depends on preference and intended use of the car.

Again...am I missing the point?

I still welcome any input...…"Knowing is half the battle" or something.
 


ron@whoosh

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#20
I met George Spears and his wife at his shop located in Van Nuys in the '90s and used his core on my A2 GLI custom turbo with a Turbo Technics manifold as a base. Before Van Nuys they were located in West LA on Olympic.

In the 90s the choices were slim. You had HKS, Greddy a few other import options and Spearco. For the ease of application I went with Spearco and supported a local business who was supporting the booming local import aftermarket turbo scene. I had no issues with Spearco or their intercooler, but the industry has evolved since then and so have technological advancement with heat extractors/exchangers.



Garrett as it pertains to the Fiesta ST platform has set the bar. All things considered their GTX2860R Gen 2 is the most popular big turbo option many seek with it's proven performance and reliability. Garrett has been around along time servicing the aviation industry. The only other turbo mfg. I would consider their competition is Borg Warner.
I ran that same Spearco core on my 2006 Mazdapeed6
Was one of the first to fab up a front mount vs the top mount intercoolers they were equipped with from the factory
I could be wrong but remember that core being huge with the 1G Eclipse and Talon folks
 




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