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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hijinx View Post
    Forgive my interjection, but the horsepower formula is (RPM * Torque)/5252. Alternatively, and close to your quote, RPM * Torque = 5252x; solve for x. What you suggest is that (RPM * Torque) = (HP * RPM).
    When I said "HP is just (torque * RPM)" I meant the relationship is direct; you can't reduce torque and end up with more HP. Anything that increases torque increases HP at any given engine speed. Some mods. decrease torque at lower revs. in order to increase torque at higher revs. or vice verse, but this mod. decreases spinning inertia and parasitic loss, thus delivering more net torque at every engine speed at some cost of drivability while slipping the clutch to get the car moving.

    (RPM * torque) = (HP * RPM) means that torque = HP (not true).

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffreylyon View Post
    When I said "HP is just (torque * RPM)" I meant the relationship is direct; you can't reduce torque and end up with more HP. Anything that increases torque increases HP at any given engine speed. Some mods. decrease torque at lower revs. in order to increase torque at higher revs. or vice verse, but this mod. decreases spinning inertia and parasitic loss, thus delivering more net torque at every engine speed at some cost of drivability while slipping the clutch to get the car moving.

    (RPM * torque) = (HP * RPM) means that torque = HP (not true).
    This crap has always confused me, I always figured torque is the twisting force rating power at the engines lower RPM's and HP is the "carrying" force generated at higher RPM's, to over simplify, which is of course not technically correct but how I choose to think of the differences in rating... Then you see cars rated with the same torque but higher HP if you use premium, tuned differently for different models (Ford/Hyundai/Kia 1.6T's) or the "Performance" model of a car makes the same torque but is rated for higher HP then the non-performance version too... All very confusing... I DO know I'd like to take that excessive low-end torque we have and trade some for a bit more upper RPM pull, I mean, who wouldn't for those of us with a stock turbo, I just don't think that's possible without a turbo upgrade... So in this case, does the pulley "free up" some higher end power that could be categorized as "HP" while the torque is the same or would torque be rated higher too but at a higher RPM?
    '17 Magnetic, black wheels/red calipers only option - New Feb, '18. Dizzy V2 e30 with Cobb TC at 3 as daily smooth tune, Stratified v4.00 93 octane with Stratified Optimal TC when e85 not available. Torque Solutions 75a RMM, TB Performance Traction Bar, Mojo Mfg short shift kit, drop-in filter w/cold air shroud cutout. Whoosh silicone Symposer delete and hotside J pipe, 18" Magnaflow glasspack muffler with 9" resonated DC Sports black tip, Powerflex passenger side Street engine mount insert with ARP bolt upgrade, step colder NGK plugs gapped at .0275. *Driver side/trans mount insert, TS VR2 EM plumb back DV and Whoosh crossover with turbo inlet installed soon.

    FYI - 92 octane e10 pump premium is very close to if not actually 93 octane, start with a 93 tune and datalog from there or you're leaving free power on the table running 91 tunes.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by danbfree View Post
    This crap has always confused me, I always figured torque is the twisting force rating power at the engines lower RPM's and HP is the "carrying" force generated at higher RPM's, to over simplify, which is of course not technically correct but how I choose to think of the differences in rating... Then you see cars rated with the same torque but higher HP if you use premium, tuned differently for different models (Ford/Hyundai/Kia 1.6T's) or the "Performance" model of a car makes the same torque but is rated for higher HP then the non-performance version too... All very confusing... I DO know I'd like to take that excessive low-end torque we have and trade some for a bit more upper RPM pull, I mean, who wouldn't for those of us with a stock turbo, I just don't think that's possible without a turbo upgrade.
    We care about HP because it describes torque at upper RPM which is important as we can delay up-shifting, something that further divides engine torque (the gearbox trades torque for wheel speed). With that in mind, a numerically lower final drive will reduce wheel-delivered torque *but* the car will be faster (MPH) in any given gear. This kinda/sorta trades low end torque or a broader wheel-delivered torque curve. Important to note is that this has *no* effect on HP as there is less wheel-delivered torque but greater wheel speed (don't get started on that, again, MeeLee/ProDigit!)

    In other words, a longer (numerically lower) final drive will reduce the delivered toque in 1st but let you stay in 1st longer.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffreylyon View Post
    We care about HP because it describes torque at upper RPM which is important as we can delay up-shifting, something that further divides engine torque (the gearbox trades torque for wheel speed). With that in mind, a numerically lower final drive will reduce wheel-delivered torque *but* the car will be faster (MPH) in any given gear. This kinda/sorta trades low end torque or a broader wheel-delivered torque curve. Important to note is that this has *no* effect on HP as there is less wheel-delivered torque but greater wheel speed (don't get started on that, again, MeeLee/ProDigit!)

    In other words, a longer (numerically lower) final drive will reduce the delivered toque in 1st but let you stay in 1st longer.
    Not to dive too deeply into gearing here, I am certainly aware of how that works and I know I wish our final drive was indeed few points lower/slightly longer geared after being tuned. So much of the car is designed around the stock power output with Ford obviously intentionally neutering a nice chunk of natural generated torque from the tiny turbo to fit the "package" they had in mind, and that's clear from seeing how much torque can be had with just a tune, but that's the thing: Typically we see an e30 car making 50 whp / 80 whtq over stock and even a Stage 1 Cobb OTS tune makes only a few HP but a good chunk more torque, almost like it's just that easy to unlock what Ford has removed intentionally. Now, with just an OTS tune, the car actually feels pretty well balanced and could pas for what Ford could have chosen to easily tune for from an engine reliability standpoint, but they have long-term warranty issues with axles, transmission, emissions, etc... But going back to e30, at that point gearing definitely feels short adding even more torque that the tiny turbo likes to make.

    So what are some solutions for putting that power down? We already know the typical things like upgraded mounts, suspension and of course LSD... But is there any way to actually spread that power from donkey kick, wheel spinning torque at lower RPM's in 2nd to a little more up high instead so the tires have a chance to hook up? That's what I'm wondering if this pulley can help with a little, it could be an overlooked way to help tame that as we know that the stock turbo simply does what it does based on its size, it can't just be tuned to flow differently without sacrificing overall performance... Also, if the water pump is being spun slower with the larger pulley, does the extra time the coolant spends passing through the radiator help give it time to cool off to make up for the slower flow? Only while moving maybe and could create even more heat issues if stuck in stop n go traffic in the summer? Would just a thermostat change from to the new 180 Ford one help? These are all things I'm curious about, as if it does help spread that power band further up, even a little, and doesn't negatively affect cooling much this could be a great little upgrade for those of us on stock turbos.
    '17 Magnetic, black wheels/red calipers only option - New Feb, '18. Dizzy V2 e30 with Cobb TC at 3 as daily smooth tune, Stratified v4.00 93 octane with Stratified Optimal TC when e85 not available. Torque Solutions 75a RMM, TB Performance Traction Bar, Mojo Mfg short shift kit, drop-in filter w/cold air shroud cutout. Whoosh silicone Symposer delete and hotside J pipe, 18" Magnaflow glasspack muffler with 9" resonated DC Sports black tip, Powerflex passenger side Street engine mount insert with ARP bolt upgrade, step colder NGK plugs gapped at .0275. *Driver side/trans mount insert, TS VR2 EM plumb back DV and Whoosh crossover with turbo inlet installed soon.

    FYI - 92 octane e10 pump premium is very close to if not actually 93 octane, start with a 93 tune and datalog from there or you're leaving free power on the table running 91 tunes.

  5. #25
    Senior Member 874 Rep Points jeff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danbfree View Post
    Not to dive too deeply into gearing here, I am certainly aware of how that works and I know I wish our final drive was indeed few points lower/slightly longer geared after being tuned. So much of the car is designed around the stock power output with Ford obviously intentionally neutering a nice chunk of natural generated torque from the tiny turbo to fit the "package" they had in mind, and that's clear from seeing how much torque can be had with just a tune, but that's the thing: Typically we see an e30 car making 50 whp / 80 whtq over stock and even a Stage 1 Cobb OTS tune makes only a few HP but a good chunk more torque, almost like it's just that easy to unlock what Ford has removed intentionally. Now, with just an OTS tune, the car actually feels pretty well balanced and could pas for what Ford could have chosen to easily tune for from an engine reliability standpoint, but they have long-term warranty issues with axles, transmission, emissions, etc... But going back to e30, at that point gearing definitely feels short adding even more torque that the tiny turbo likes to make.

    So what are some solutions for putting that power down? We already know the typical things like upgraded mounts, suspension and of course LSD... But is there any way to actually spread that power from donkey kick, wheel spinning torque at lower RPM's in 2nd to a little more up high instead so the tires have a chance to hook up? That's what I'm wondering if this pulley can help with a little, it could be an overlooked way to help tame that as we know that the stock turbo simply does what it does based on its size, it can't just be tuned to flow differently without sacrificing overall performance... Also, if the water pump is being spun slower with the larger pulley, does the extra time the coolant spends passing through the radiator help give it time to cool off to make up for the slower flow? Only while moving maybe and could create even more heat issues if stuck in stop n go traffic in the summer? Would just a thermostat change from to the new 180 Ford one help? These are all things I'm curious about, as if it does help spread that power band further up, even a little, and doesn't negatively affect cooling much this could be a great little upgrade for those of us on stock turbos.
    Gears 1 and 2 are always going to have a problem handling full power unless you get tank treads. The point of this pulley mod for me is more pull in gears 3 and 4.
    Hey, check out my build thread!

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff View Post
    Gears 1 and 2 are always going to have a problem handling full power unless you get tank treads. The point of this pulley mod for me is more pull in gears 3 and 4.
    Tell me about it I could spend the tires off of my Ford escort in first gear.

    Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by danbfree View Post
    That's what I'm wondering if this pulley can help with a little, it could be an overlooked way to help tame that as we know that the stock turbo simply does what it does based on its size, it can't just be tuned to flow differently without sacrificing overall performance...
    It won't. This mod. will increase torque everywhere while, maybe, make launching and stop-and-go a little more difficult.

    I'm looking forward to @jeff's review.

  8. #28
    Senior Member 874 Rep Points jeff's Avatar
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    Well I got mine today....I must say I am quite impressed, somehow Pumaspeed got it across the ocean to me in 3 days. The product looks fine however I am slightly pissed because I ordered some swag and instead of putting 2 size L t-shirts in the box they put 1 size XL polo shirt....how do you miss that? Still waiting to hear back from them on that but anyhow my friend Daniel aka @SwAp GaS the master genius mechanic is going to help me install this as I'm not familiar with pulleys, once done (hopefully next week) and I get some time behind the wheel I'll make a separate review thread.

    For now a few pics, I grabbed the red to match my other red bling:



    Hey, check out my build thread!

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    Nice info sir TY!! Looking forward to your results. Btw I installed a Revo last Saturday, havent had her tuned yet but am getting 316whp/319lbft, blew off an intercooler hose on a test drive and now have double clamps on them, whats that 360bhp roughly, thats almost a 100whp increase since last weekend...
    Name:  grumpy360hp.JPG
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    CURRENT@315whp/319torque (361bhp):active shift designs pedal kit|boomba shift adapter plate|cobb hard pipes|cobb fmic|cobb ap v3|cobb motor mount|ford lock gas cap|k&n cai & drycharger|mbrp 3" cb|ngk iridium ix|pirelli p zero nero|rf punch p1-2x10|rf punch p1000|rf punch p165-si 6.5"|rf digital 1 farad cap|turbosmart kompact dual-port bov|vee-port pro sound symposer mod|turbosmart iwg-75|whoosh crossover|stratified tuned|cfm breather oil cap|whoosh 200 cell catted dp|vudu 34mm ported manifold|revo rt330 turbo|rota recce 17x7.5

    FUTURE:.pierce motorsports chasis braces|willwood big brake kit|pumaspeed pulley

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    Senior Member 986 Rep Points TyphoonFiST's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpycat View Post
    Nice info sir TY!! Looking forward to your results. Btw I installed a Revo last Saturday, havent had her tuned yet but am getting 316whp/319lbft, blew off an intercooler hose on a test drive and now have double clamps on them, whats that 360bhp roughly, thats almost a 100whp increase since last weekend...
    Name:  grumpy360hp.JPG
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    You might want to set smoothing down to 3 BTW....FYI......


    Is this your bush? Are you king of the forest?

 

 
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