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  1. #31
    Senior Member 668 Rep Points Dpro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Sport fan View Post
    IF the above is the case, then WHY does M-Sport spec an inverted monotube Bilstein damper with a linear rate main spring and a tender spring, for it's R1 class spec, GRAVEL (and tarmac as well) front suspension setup?

    Do they have no clue as to what they are doing??
    Several possible reasons . 1. Sponsorship from Bilstein= free suspension setup, 2. They are tuning it per course,
    3. How groomed are those gravel and tarmac tracks. Well groomed can mean still pretty smooth.

    4. There are always exceptions and people who do things outside of convention rule of thumb or what may be considered ideal.

    5. Just because a winning team you love does it does not make it a rule of thumb. See above on 4.

    6. Racing has always been winning and doing so trying ideas and making things work that sometimes should not. Nothing is absolute but somethings are ideal and some are not.

    You see unconventional stuff in F1 all the time, they turn shit on its head sometimes jist to try amd get an advantage . Not only that but everytime the restrict the cars to slow them down the teams figure out a way to go faster. Lol

    So do not lock yourself into its one way or the highway just because a team wins with it. Racing thrives on innovation don’t follow try things out.
    Its part of why I have not made a hard and fast decision on my suspension setup. I want to do what I figure will work best for me not doing something just because a team wins with it professionally.

    If I had followed team winning ways in the 240sx world I would never have realized how bad most Japanese coil overs suck. Why because HKS,Tein, Tanabe etc.. are all on JGTC winning cars and D1 cars. So gots to rum them its way they do.
    2018 Orange Spice,Smoke Storm Recaro’s,Ebony wheels( for now) Thermal RD Exhaust
    , Cobb AP( tune by Randy af Mountune, more customs to come,)ST200 airbox with cold air intake,Revo foam filter, Whoosh/Ramair crossover pipe ,Whoosh Intake Tube,Turbosmart EV blowoff valve, Whoosh motorsports Symposer delete

  2. #32
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dpro View Post
    Several possible reasons . 1. Sponsorship from Bilstein= free suspension setup, 2. They are tuning it per course,
    3. How groomed are those gravel and tarmac tracks. Well groomed can mean still pretty smooth.

    4. There are always exceptions and people who do things outside of convention rule of thumb or what may be considered ideal.

    5. Just because a winning team you love does it does not make it a rule of thumb. See above on 4.

    6. Racing has always been winning and doing so trying ideas and making things work that sometimes should not. Nothing is absolute but somethings are ideal and some are not.

    You see unconventional stuff in F1 all the time, they turn shit on its head sometimes jist to try amd get an advantage . Not only that but everytime the restrict the cars to slow them down the teams figure out a way to go faster. Lol

    So do not lock yourself into its one way or the highway just because a team wins with it. Racing thrives on innovation don’t follow try things out.
    Its part of why I have not made a hard and fast decision on my suspension setup. I want to do what I figure will work best for me not doing something just because a team wins with it professionally.

    If I had followed team winning ways in the 240sx world I would never have realized how bad most Japanese coil overs suck. Why because HKS,Tein, Tanabe etc.. are all on JGTC winning cars and D1 cars. So gots to rum them its way they do.
    GRAVEL= 30% of the roads in L.A.

  4. #34
    Senior Member 1306 Rep Points M-Sport fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dpro View Post
    Several possible reasons . 1. Sponsorship from Bilstein= free suspension setup, 2. They are tuning it per course,
    3. How groomed are those gravel and tarmac tracks. Well groomed can mean still pretty smooth.

    4. There are always exceptions and people who do things outside of convention rule of thumb or what may be considered ideal.

    5. Just because a winning team you love does it does not make it a rule of thumb. See above on 4.

    6. Racing has always been winning and doing so trying ideas and making things work that sometimes should not. Nothing is absolute but somethings are ideal and some are not.

    You see unconventional stuff in F1 all the time, they turn shit on its head sometimes jist to try amd get an advantage . Not only that but everytime the restrict the cars to slow them down the teams figure out a way to go faster. Lol

    So do not lock yourself into its one way or the highway just because a team wins with it. Racing thrives on innovation don’t follow try things out.
    Its part of why I have not made a hard and fast decision on my suspension setup. I want to do what I figure will work best for me not doing something just because a team wins with it professionally.

    If I had followed team winning ways in the 240sx world I would never have realized how bad most Japanese coil overs suck. Why because HKS,Tein, Tanabe etc.. are all on JGTC winning cars and D1 cars. So gots to rum them its way they do.
    Actually, M-Sport Ford WRT's damper 'sponsor' is Reiger (now exclusively ZF Motorsports for the actual WRC spec cars), and NOT Bilstein at all.

    The inverted Bilstein coilovers are ONLY used for their R1 rally class setups, so as to make that class's spec more affordable than a suspension setup worth WAY MORE than the car itself!

    Regardless of whether or not you consider it 'ideal' for what you label as 'smooth' roads, I do know that this setup will be NUKE PROOF for our bombed-out Pennsyltuckey roads (especially if I use the Team O'Neil Motorsports top mounts with them), and most certainly outlast all of the Taiwanese/whatever 'affordable' all-in-one adjustable, coil over setups. ;)

    With very few exceptions, even the TARMAC WRC/Euro championship rally rounds are NOT held on glass smooth, perfect condition roads, hence WHY the cars NEVER look 'slammed' down to the lowest height adjustments on their suspensions.

    Also, with the possible exception of the Finnish Rally (which DOES have many 'yumps'/jumps/compressions/major dips on even it's most high speed straight sections), most of the gravel rounds are on VERY rough, rutted, embedded rock type forest roads, which require MAJOR suspension travel, AND strength.
    Magnetic 2016 Fiesta ST base model

  5. #35
    Senior Member 668 Rep Points Dpro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Sport fan View Post
    Actually, M-Sport Ford WRT's damper 'sponsor' is Reiger (now exclusively ZF Motorsports for the actual WRC spec cars), and NOT Bilstein at all.

    The inverted Bilstein coilovers are ONLY used for their R1 rally class setups, so as to make that class's spec more affordable than a suspension setup worth WAY MORE than the car itself!

    Regardless of whether or not you consider it 'ideal' for what you label as 'smooth' roads, I do know that this setup will be NUKE PROOF for our bombed-out Pennsyltuckey roads (especially if I use the Team O'Neil Motorsports top mounts with them), and most certainly outlast all of the Taiwanese/whatever 'affordable' all-in-one adjustable, coil over setups. ;)

    With very few exceptions, even the TARMAC WRC/Euro championship rally rounds are NOT held on glass smooth, perfect condition roads, hence WHY the cars NEVER look 'slammed' down to the lowest height adjustments on their suspensions.

    Also, with the possible exception of the Finnish Rally (which DOES have many 'yumps'/jumps/compressions/major dips on even it's most high speed straight sections), most of the gravel rounds are on VERY rough, rutted, embedded rock type forest roads, which require MAJOR suspension travel, AND strength.
    I was only basing my response on what you wrote ;) . That said I am not sure especially on public roads one can find anything idea. Lol Fact is most car markers setup their suspensions as a general comprimise tending to lean one way or the other so to speak. In our case Ford pushed it towards Sporty fun stiff because go fast fun car.

    Its easy for them to design something on the test track and say thats good enough without taking absolutely everything into consideration.

    Its trickier for us as enthuisists to figure out what will suit us. It also varys per driver. Some FiST owners loudly proclaim they would never lower the car. Others tend to look toward lifting to make more Rally car that its sporting pedigree seems to be derived from.
    In a lot of ways it does remind of the Datsun 510 regardless fwd vs the rwd,.

    The car is at home on the offroad as it is on the track or autocross course. The 510 shared a lot of FiST ashetics a cheap affordable ecomony car with the right underpinnings to be turned into a monster little sports car that won inn road course championships, Pro Rally champions and Autocoss.

    While we never got the sports version of the 510 it was a SSS Bluebird that sported a twin Su carbureted large port high combustion head 1600cc engine putting out close to another 30-40 hp over the stock L16 we were stuck with

    I digress though in making my point. My point mainly is no suspension choice for our cars is the must be all end all.

    Progressive springed vs linear one can get the car to perform. I only point it out for the sake of your hard and fast assumed stance no pun intended towards linear springs or else.
    I also only point out general suspension spring design reasons for different applications.

    Like I said previously take the knowledge make the choice dare to be different. Don’t stick with because is.
    I try not too. Lol

    Been a good discussion and I think we have run its course. YMMV
    2018 Orange Spice,Smoke Storm Recaro’s,Ebony wheels( for now) Thermal RD Exhaust
    , Cobb AP( tune by Randy af Mountune, more customs to come,)ST200 airbox with cold air intake,Revo foam filter, Whoosh/Ramair crossover pipe ,Whoosh Intake Tube,Turbosmart EV blowoff valve, Whoosh motorsports Symposer delete

  6. #36
    Senior Member 1306 Rep Points M-Sport fan's Avatar
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    Yeah, we also never got the early, RWD, Cosworth headed, Escort RSes either, as they would have been major competition for even the pedestrian 510s we did get here. ;)

    What is perplexing to me is WHY Suspension Techniques does NOT list their progressive lowering springs for our car with a 'range' of rate (i.e.; 100#-245#, or whatever) like most other manufacturers of that style spring do for theirs, and ONLY show their maximum, fully compressed rate of 245#.

    It does falsely lead one to believe that they are, in fact, linear rate.
    Magnetic 2016 Fiesta ST base model

  7. #37
    Senior Member 668 Rep Points Dpro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Sport fan View Post
    Yeah, we also never got the early, RWD, Cosworth headed, Escort RSes either, as they would have been major competition for even the pedestrian 510s we did get here. ;)

    What is perplexing to me is WHY Suspension Techniques does NOT list their progressive lowering springs for our car with a 'range' of rate (i.e.; 100#-245#, or whatever) like most other manufacturers of that style spring do for theirs, and ONLY show their maximum, fully compressed rate of 245#.

    It does falsely lead one to believe that they are, in fact, linear rate.

    Actually I have found that when it comes to aftermarket lowering springs overall its not eactly easy to get the rates period. A lot of the websites selling them and even the manufacturers sites aren’t always forthcoming with that info.
    It could also be why a lot of people wind up going coilovers these days because not only status quo but lots more information on spring rates and what not.

    If I can get a set of Koni’s for a good deal I will probably bolt my Whitelines on them and give them a run otherwise I will probsbly drop dime on coilovers.
    2018 Orange Spice,Smoke Storm Recaro’s,Ebony wheels( for now) Thermal RD Exhaust
    , Cobb AP( tune by Randy af Mountune, more customs to come,)ST200 airbox with cold air intake,Revo foam filter, Whoosh/Ramair crossover pipe ,Whoosh Intake Tube,Turbosmart EV blowoff valve, Whoosh motorsports Symposer delete

 

 
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