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Stance General Discussion

RAAMaudio

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#41
I actually do understand stance perhaps more than the ones doing it as in the term the way it is used here means I have been doing it for over 40years quite successfully.

I am asking about the extreme end of things from a purely engineering perspective and have asked for anything that can legitimately substantiate this as an acceptable option on street driven vehicles.

So far the only thing offered is personal opinion that has not even started to address the serious questions asked, instead a quote from j455, that is not much of a response as it only shows more personal bias and is rather lame as well.

Come on, I hope there is more to offer as I really want to hear it:)
 


RAAMaudio

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#42
"Due to the overwhelming need for people to have a place to discuss this, let's discuss stance here. Feel free to express your opinion even if it's negative, just try and be respectful towards others and if possible give actual reasons as to why it's not for you. Maybe you have questions that you're curious about or maybe you actually support it-in any direction this is the place for you to put your words down.
First post on this thread.

It's easy to hate something out of ignorance, but it's entirely different to not like something you understand. This isn't a thread to try and sway the people in either direction because most whom feel strongly about it won't change their thoughts, but hopefully people can discuss this openly with enough respect for fellow members to keep this civil."
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"Yeah, that pretty much nails it on the head."

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Oops, looks to be a bit off target here with the J455 quoted quote;)
 


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dyn085

dyn085

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Thread Starter #43
I responded to most of the responses that you haven't removed in red as it was just the shortest way to do it. Also, instead of saying 'on page 4' you should probably use the post number as many people don't use the standard forum settings. Just a pro-tip.

After reviewing this entire thread I decided to condense my stand into one post as there is one major issue that is the only one that really matters to me, safety for all of us on our roads. This includes all types of vehicles and mods and or lack of proper maintenance but we are on the Stance forum so this just talks about Stance issues.

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It is your vehicle, mod it as you desire, please consider the info below and respond in a logical way if you can as I would really like to hear it, most sincerely so.

If a car has been modified like that Subie by being lowered, wider wheels and tires, flush or even rolled fenders, or even rolled and pulled to get the tires and wheels both under the fenders, the geometry is setup to handle properly, then that is how I have done things for decades before anybody used the term "Stance" and I love it. I was doing this before some members here Dad's were born and doing so now to my ST:)

You can't tell whether the Subie is 'properly' set up simply by looking at a picture. You can't see caster, toe, or really even tell if the camber is correct. You can't see spring rates or damper specs or what the individual corners weigh. While I agree that it looks good and assume it's setup well, you simply can't just look at a car and know it's set up right.

I did not realize the term is now used in various ways as my take on it was wheels too wide for the tires or tires to narrow for the wheels, wheels sticking outside fenders, tires tucked under, huge camber, lowered so far the suspension does not work properly, far to much camber, etc..that is the "Stance" I do not agree with because it is purely physics, this is not my personal stand, it is fundamental truth.

And there's nothing wrong with not agreeing with it.

Do anything you want to your vehicle, as long as it is safe, great, glad you are doing so and not like the the crowd. Do unsafe things then it goes beyond personal as is potentially dangerous to others and we have a responsibility for everyone's safety, not just our own, we do not have the right to endanger others on publicly owned roads.

Already discussed below.

If you can show otherwise I would love to hear it as I have not seen anything substantial to disprove the point. The only arguments I have seen are based on personal preference, not on science. I will listen when faced with factual data, until then the version of "Stance" I see with unsafe modifications simply cannot be deemed acceptable on our roads and it is why in some places cars are ticketed, maybe even impounded, etc....they should be.

What other arguments are you expecting to see? What factual data are you looking for? I understand that you have a personal version of what you believe is unsafe and that's fine, but what data are you leaning on that determines that it is unsafe? While I can definitely agree that there are setups that are less-than optimal, no car randomly crashes itself simply because it had camber added. I'm sure some probably have due to having had an inexperienced driver, but that's hardly the cars fault.

-----------------------

Here is an option, trailer the car to shows as most show cars are not built to drive properly so why take the chance of damaging it.

Another option, some may do at least part of it this it seems: Bag it, put on some safe wheels and tires, raise it up to where it has known proper geometry, drive to the event, swap the wheels and tires and let the air out (toe in will normally change quite a bit, pre mark everything and it is easy to correct it for the show and the go, I have done this on many street/track car builds but mostly I just change camber and toe as my lowering works for both safely and properly.

Now you can have your stance at shows, which it seems that is the only safe place to do so and what it is done for, to show it off. Raised for the street so easier on the chassis, safer, less chance of damaging anything and have more fun driving it.

Many stanced vehicles are set up exactly how your describe. A lot of extreme and high-dollar builds are trailered in, and many air setups are aligned at a respectable but low drive-height-generally whatever height the owner needs to use it effectively given the vehicles use.

I would love to hear a rational argument on this perspective, physics versus..........

Most sincerely,
Rick
I actually do understand stance perhaps more than the ones doing it as in the term the way it is used here means I have been doing it for over 40years quite successfully.

I am asking about the extreme end of things from a purely engineering perspective and have asked for anything that can legitimately substantiate this as an acceptable option on street driven vehicles.

What is it you're trying to find out about the extreme end? What exactly would constitute 'legitimate substantiation' for which you're looking for?

So far the only thing offered is personal opinion that has not even started to address the serious questions asked, instead a quote from j455, that is not much of a response as it only shows more personal bias and is rather lame as well.

Come on, I hope there is more to offer as I really want to hear it:)

I have no idea what it is you're wanting to hear. I can only explain that stance is strictly personal preference so many times in so many ways.
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Oops, looks to be a bit off target here with the J455 quoted quote;)
I don't think you understood the quoted quote and how it applies to stance or this forum as a whole, let alone me agreeing with it. I have watched you bash and condescend people in numerous threads over the multiple FiST forums for making statements or asking questions about decisions that weren't specifically performance-oriented and many times that's been me. While you are definitely not the only one, it is still quite pertinent-you are just a single example. Just like in this thread you go back and delete the posts or adjust your position, but it doesn't change the initial response.

I drive my FiST around 32 miles a day, of which 28 are in-town with a lot of stop and go through 18 stoplights, and my Fuelly average is over 29 mpg. How much performance do you think I really need and how much to you think I'm concerned with having an 'optimal' suspension setup? I can't think of a single person that I know in the stance community that chose the route due to performance (except for maybe drifters, I guess). You can keep asking for factual data if you want, but stance is a personal choice not based on performance so you're probably only going to get personal opinions.
 


RAAMaudio

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#44
"You can't tell whether the Subie is 'properly' set up simply by looking at a picture."

That is why I started it with "If" and and then onto "the geometry is setup to handle properly"
I looks like it might be setup well and it does not have massive camber, rims sticking out, tires tucked in, looks pretty good and there is a chance it is setup well, I sure hope so:)

Since a cars suspension is designed by an engineering team to handlle a certain load, at certain angles and a huge number of other things like camber gain, roll center, roll couple, anti dive or squat, etc......keeping the tire contact patch on the ground as much as possible...all the way up to F1, it is universal knowledge and thus so well proven it does not have to be explained, it simply is the right way to do things within the given parameters of the goals of the manufacturer.

Many of us choose to take things to a different level and understand what the results will be. There are so many variables it is impossible to come up with a single formula that covers everything as to what has gone beyond the realm of a safe modification but a general rule of thumb would be to at least not differ to far from certain aspects known to induce results in the negative direction. Adding to much load on a part, not providing proper support for a tire, reducing contact patch dramatically, putting most all the load on on tire that is not optimized to handle it, those are additive issues and quite simple that even to the casual observer to not be the optimal path to follow.

Extreme is pretty easy to see, extreme camber, extreme lowering, extremely narrow tires on wide rims, those are extreme and when I see a car like that on the street I am simply baffled as to why somebody would do such a thing, personal preference over common sense?

If a massively lifted, or hugely overpowered or overly aggressively driven car or truck is involved in an accident because of one of those issues "personal preference" will have no sway on the outcome of the legal actions that are taken. This holds true for any mod or any driver of any kind of vehicle, if an extremely Stanced car is the cause of an accident, it will not matter what the drivers preferences are if proven the modification or intent of the driver to lesson the ability of the car to respond or the mod failed....

The whole point is not personal, it is simply common knowledge, and about the safety of everyone on the road.

Very simple, basic, easily understood......

Have a great evening:)





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"the
 


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dyn085

dyn085

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Thread Starter #45
"You can't tell whether the Subie is 'properly' set up simply by looking at a picture."

That is why I started it with "If" and and then onto "the geometry is setup to handle properly"
I looks like it might be setup well and it does not have massive camber, rims sticking out, tires tucked in, looks pretty good and there is a chance it is setup well, I sure hope so:)

Since a cars suspension is designed by an engineering team to handlle a certain load, at certain angles and a huge number of other things like camber gain, roll center, roll couple, anti dive or squat, etc......keeping the tire contact patch on the ground as much as possible...all the way up to F1, it is universal knowledge and thus so well proven it does not have to be explained, it simply is the right way to do things within the given parameters of the goals of the manufacturer.

Many of us choose to take things to a different level and understand what the results will be. There are so many variables it is impossible to come up with a single formula that covers everything as to what has gone beyond the realm of a safe modification but a general rule of thumb would be to at least not differ to far from certain aspects known to induce results in the negative direction. Adding to much load on a part, not providing proper support for a tire, reducing contact patch dramatically, putting most all the load on on tire that is not optimized to handle it, those are additive issues and quite simple that even to the casual observer to not be the optimal path to follow.

Extreme is pretty easy to see, extreme camber, extreme lowering, extremely narrow tires on wide rims, those are extreme and when I see a car like that on the street I am simply baffled as to why somebody would do such a thing, personal preference over common sense?

If a massively lifted, or hugely overpowered or overly aggressively driven car or truck is involved in an accident because of one of those issues "personal preference" will have no sway on the outcome of the legal actions that are taken. This holds true for any mod or any driver of any kind of vehicle, if an extremely Stanced car is the cause of an accident, it will not matter what the drivers preferences are if proven the modification or intent of the driver to lesson the ability of the car to respond or the mod failed....

The whole point is not personal, it is simply common knowledge, and about the safety of everyone on the road.

Very simple, basic, easily understood......

Have a great evening:)





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"the
You would think it's common knowledge but as you can see-it's not. Many people have the belief that a stanced vehicle is somehow automatically unsafe, and that's generally due to the lack of knowledge about it. I've seen more suspension failures on performance-modified cars due to not replacing TTY suspension hardware or not being torqued correctly than I've seen tires de-bead due to too much stretch.

In one weeks time within the Focus community I saw pictures of two struts of members that had their struts push through the knuckle (one contacted the driveshaft). They had only installed lowering springs. In two+ years I saw one member have a tire de-bead that was running excessive stretch.

Safety is significantly affected more from human factors than non-OEM geometry.
 


RAAMaudio

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#46
Though a Fiesta ST forum my posts are about Extreme Stance on any vehicle.

They are not about a particular brand, or different levels of stance, just about Extreme that includes massive camber, very narrow tires on wide wheels and overly lowered and for very valid reasons which are readily quantifiable in hundreds of books on suspension, physics, structural engineering, magazine articles, etc.......

Of course all the principles apply to lowering, adding camber, etc...to any car or truck, this is about pointing out the seriousness of what happens to an Extreme Stacned vehicle. These are hard issues that cannot be wished away, they are there until dealt with, something fails, something happens.....

The results become compounded when you look at all the issues involved.

Extreme lowering will lift the roll center and the leverage of this will put nearly all the weight of the vehicle on the outside tires.
Extreme lowering will induce added bump steer causing the steering angle to change when hitting a bump, unsettling the car.
Extreme lowering will reduce suspension travel and cause bottoming out in some situations, which causes the contact patch to be lifted.
Extreme camber reduces the contact patch of that tire causing reduced grip, traction, braking force and added heat which can lead to catastrophic failure.
Extremely stiff springs, which I image most would have to use to deal with such little travel, cause loss of grip over bumps
Extremely narrow tires reduces the contact patch even further.
Extreme lowering will add stress to structural members, attachment points, fasteners and suspension joints, steering gear, wheels and tires.
Extreme offset wheels, add stress to ball joints and change the scrub radius of the tires(if extreme offset wheels are used)

These all add up compounding the issue, why it is a bigger safety situation than may be readily apparent.

Extremely stanced FWD, one much less than optimal tire is now doing nearly all the work which it was not designed to do.
Extremely stanced RWD, at least forward grip is shifted to the rear tire relieving the overly worked front tire with a little less overload.

Ways to at least lesson some of the compounding issues, not all are compatible together as deal with issues different ways:
Roll center correction by lowering the outer lower ball joint or raising the inner pick up point at the chassis
Bump steer correction, lowering the outer tie rod end pivot point or raising the steering rack.
Add suspension travel and use softer springs
Inner fender height raised so the added travel will not cause the tire to contact the body which could cause several issues at the same time.
Proper bump stops, which are an integral part of the suspension, calibrated to not just stop impact but to slow it in a progressive state.
Reduce Positive caster, this will tilt the tires less while turning since to much static camber is already dialed in.
Reduce Negative camber for better tire contact
Raise ride height to reduced roll center and bump steer
Use wider tires and or narrower wheels
Use offset wheels that place the center of the wheel in the same place as the stock wheels, this means wider wheels need different offsets than narrower wheels.

This is posted so those that do not have access to this information can better make wise choices in their mod plans and hopefully build a safer and more reliable car, or truck.

Have a great weekend:)
Rick
 


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dyn085

dyn085

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Thread Starter #47
Circular discussion is circular.

Just because you change the driving characteristics of the car does not make it undrivable nor does it make it spontaneously unsafe. Drivers of low and stanced vehicles tend to spend a good amount of time learning to cope with different handling characteristics, whether they are improved or worsened.

While you aren't necessarily wrong in the science behind what you're saying, you don't seem to have much practical experience due to your perspective, and that's fine. Just because a car doesn't handle 'optimally' doesn't make it unsafe. I had less than one inch of suspension travel before hitting the modified bump-stops for 20k miles and never once did my car crash itself. Anyone that drove it was actually impressed with both the ride and handling-

 


iso100

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#48
I would not consider that Focus "stanced" in the way that I and most others not inside the Stancing Inner Circleā„¢ would think. To me, that's just a lowered car with wheels that fit damned near flush.

When I think "Stanced" I think of the retarded -30? camber on 10" wide rims running 195's.
 


RAAMaudio

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#49
Your car looks incredible, love it really though a little to low for my taste and it is nothing like what I consider stanced(excepting as mentioned stance may now consider lowered cars stanced) it is just a bit overly lowered and could probably benefit from roll center and bump steer correction if not yet done.

The Severe Stance is what ISO and I believe to be a bit over the top.
 


RAAMaudio

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#52
My wife loves cars, racing, manual trans, cruising, hauling arse in the mountains, wanted to drive one car we were building at 200 MPH at Bonneville.

She is exceptionally intelligent, kind, wise, sweet, fun.....good looking, especially for being 50 and a great cook and will say what is on her mind.

I showed her the pics and her comments were....

"What the F---, that is retarded, that is stupid, that is incredibly unsafe, why would anybody to that" and more......she get's it:)

To me that is stance, not a lowered car as in the other pics we have been shown.
 


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dyn085

dyn085

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Thread Starter #53
Out of random curiosity I went and pulled the first 'car features' pics off of StanceNation-







And that's not hand-picked, that's straight off of their first page. I could hand-pick extreme examples if I wanted to only showcase what I don't care to be part of, but this thread is general discussion and not just what is not accepted by some. The point is that most people only think of stance as a bad thing, and that's mostly due to lack of knowledge/information.

http://www.stancenation.com/topics/car-features/
 


RAAMaudio

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#54
I believe the Stance crowd is incorporating lowered cars, a very very old tradition, into stance, to us old timers, younger ones too, our lowered cars are not stanced, they are lowered.

We have discussed this about as far as a conversation can go and we have out own interpretations of stance versus lowered and I will stick to my "opinion" based on real physics, extreme stanced is unsafe and should not be on the road. It is fine for car shows, etc.....though I will always see it as a rather silly thing to do to a car. I feel a bit the same about most restored cars, to far over the top, and some of the $$$$$$$$ show cars, I appreciate the art work but if it is not used as a car then it is just art work.

I did get to go to lunch in a $650k show truck call the Millennium Mac, 4 years of hard labor, huge heachache getting it licensed to tow with a trailer of show cars around, that to me is cool because it worked really well as a truck and not just some trailer queen or barely drivable vehicle, it was completely safe as well.

Yellow Z, lowered
Blue Acura, stanced
Grey Fiat, lowered
Red Porsche, a bit of both as no massive camber but mostly stanced
Red MB, race car lowered
Silver Subie, stanced

Here is a lowered vehicle, mine from a number of years back, $20k audio system, built and parked outdoors, 7 page magazine article on it, it is lowered.



20k miles going to shows and audio comps in 1 year and totally rebuilt the audio 3 times while holding down a full time job and starting and running a business, it road and handled very well, super comfy with Recaro's in the custom interior I did myself as well.
 


D1JL

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#55
I guess I'm just too old.
I don't know what stanced is supposed to mean.

They all just looked lowered to me.



Dave
 


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#56
I guess I'm just too old.
I don't know what stanced is supposed to mean.

They all just looked lowered to me.



Dave
In the 70's it was all about jacking up the back end with air shocks and putting on the widest tire you could. (kind of a nod to drag cars)

Now it's still about wide tire but with the car sitting as low as possible. Lots of camber, coil-overs or bags whatever makes it happen. (A nod to drift, time attack what have you)

Basically popular automotive styling follows the trend of the most popular form of racing. Just my 2 cents.
 


BlueBomber

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#57
In the 70's it was all about jacking up the back end with air shocks and putting on the widest tire you could. (kind of a nod to drag cars)

Now it's still about wide tire but with the car sitting as low as possible. Lots of camber, coil-overs or bags whatever makes it happen. (A nod to drift, time attack what have you)

Basically popular automotive styling follows the trend of the most popular form of racing. Just my 2 cents.
Almost but not quite.
Today the kids are doing low as possible on the widest WHEELS possible but 95% of the time the tires actually reduce the car's contact patch to nothing. That's the part that bugs me, the nasty skinny tires. What the hell is the idea in putting a 205-series tire on a 9-10" wide wheel

If I could, I would have giant box flares and 335-series tires on all four corners and look like an old IMSA car.

So stanced is really the reference to being lowered with wheels and slight camber, done in such a way so as to reduce/eliminate wheel gap.

IDGAF about how low I am with my coilovers, hell, I raised mine....
 


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#58
Almost but not quite.
Today the kids are doing low as possible on the widest WHEELS possible
Good point it's all about the wheel width and stretched tires. I guess in that way it's a lot more similar to the lowrider scene. In any case my point is the name for what's popular rarely has a concise definition. Most of the cars here are pushing the fitment the FiST can do. It can do lower but not loads of camber. I think this is why Dave was confused.

Side note:
Whether it's 50's led sleds, Ed Roth style customs or jacked up muscle cars automotive trends are rarely functional but always cool. Whatever floats your boat, rock it.
 


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dyn085

dyn085

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Thread Starter #59
As I've posted the discussion thread-

The problem is that there is no 'real' definition of stance. It is more about how the entire car comes together and flows than just wheel fitment. There are cars that are considered stanced with tuck, flush, and poke fitments, some with +sized wheels, -sized wheels, extreme stretch, mild stretch, meaty fitment, excessive camber, minimal to no camber, static/air/springs, new models and old...it's just a very broad spectrum. Very much like a race car, which can be road, off-road, drag, auto-x, NASCAR, F1, etc., it's just a loosely-defined term.
 




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