Back on 93 tune after a year on ethanol...

[jeff]

I've been rocking the e30 tune for well over a year. About to do some longer road trips and without many e85 stations around the southeast I decided it was best to live with 93 for awhile.

I thought I'd be underwhelmed because when I went from 93 to e30 it was super noticeable. However I was pleasantly surprised. The car is actually more livable and the power delivery, since it's less, is much more controlled. MPG on e30 is about 27 (~300 miles/tank) for me, on 93 I get 31 (~360 miles/tank). I wonder if this is even a better place for the car. I've often said how 300whp is the perfect number but now that I'm down ~30hp it feels a bit more balanced. That's one thing I've enjoyed about my Mini Cooper S build, the power is way less but you're always in control of the car.

So I might stay with the 93 for a season.

The graph below shows my dyno #s with both tunes. There's more HP loss that TQ, maybe that's why it still feels so good. Note this run was before my redline was raised to 7200, but it's the best comparison graph I have.

 

[4sfed4]

Nice comparison plot Jeff. I am still on the stock turbo, and since I have E85 readily available locally and it is very cheap at like $1.70 a gallon, I've pretty much been running it exclusively. Both the butt and vdynos showed a pretty significant difference going to E30 from 93 but I could see that a slight toning down of the torque could make the car feel more refined so to speak.

 

[4sfed4]

Also, I think I have put 2 and 2 together and I have watched a bunch of YouTube videos, they are all nicely done✔️

 

[4sfed4]

To provide some relevant content to your topic for the stock turbo, here are a few plots for my car. The general trend appear similar to what you found, my power is just a lot lower. These are with the stock IC.

 

[Se7eN]

I feel ya on the livable thing with a bit less power. In my case was difference in turbo size that added the power. Car was on rails with about 280+/- now with 300+ all the time it just spins tires.

 

[jeff]

I feel ya on the livable thing with a bit less power. In my case was difference in turbo size that added the power. Car was on rails with about 280+/- now with 300+ all the time it just spins tires.

Yeah that's exactly what I was getting at. Glad you agree, I feel odd enjoying the car with less power but again today driving around I had the same experience, I was asking myself "Will I ever use e30 mix again?" In my case I was wanting 300whp just because. Some of it was a goal, some was mod addiction if I'm honest. And getting there, with the jump of power going from 93 to e30, was astonishing and noticeable. But driving the car that way for a year I realized that the only time I can use/really take advantage of that e30 power bump is beyond 40mph. How often am I illegally street racing and breaking the law to do that? In a Fiesta with 300whp, you get from 40 to 80 in just a few seconds, it happens quick. Anywhere other than on a track or on the interstate probably isn't the best place to do these things.

 

[Capri to ST]

Yeah that's exactly what I was getting at. Glad you agree, I feel odd enjoying the car with less power but again today driving around I had the same experience, I was asking myself "Will I ever use e30 mix again?" In my case I was wanting 300whp just because. Some of it was a goal, some was mod addiction if I'm honest. And getting there, with the jump of power going from 93 to e30, was astonishing and noticeable. But driving the car that way for a year I realized that the only time I can use/really take advantage of that e30 power bump is beyond 40mph. How often am I illegally street racing and breaking the law to do that? In a Fiesta with 300whp, you get from 40 to 80 in just a few seconds, it happens quick. Anywhere other than on a track or on the interstate probably isn't the best place to do these things.

I had the same feeling with the E90 M3 that I sold to buy this car, that it had power that I couldn't really use on the street without getting arrested or losing my license. I used to say the problem with having a car that goes 0 to 100 in about 10 seconds is that you want to go 0 to 100 in about 10 seconds.
The primary asset of the Fiesta ST is its nimble and agile handling, and that's something you can use all the time without getting in trouble.

 

[4sfed4]

This conversation is rather timely. Many years ago I used to mess around with cars as a hobby, but I have been inactive for about 15 years or so. The FiST has been my re-introduction to the automotive hobby and I have already felt the mud bug biting......And I can already feel those once forgotten feelings of wanting more more more . It's the old "if 200 hp is good, 250 is better, then 300", etc. etc. When I look back on the last car that I toyed around with, if I think clearly and honestly about it, it was probably the most fun when it was in one of its more moderate phases. That was the sweetspot. When it made sub 200 hp it was not enough, when it was triple that it was too much, something in the middle was perfect. Finding that perfect spot for the FiST is what I am trying to figure out now, and I am starting to think (likely to the chagrin of our many valued aftermarker suppliers), that it probably involves the stock turbo and many other stock parts as well.


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[jeff]

This conversation is rather timely. Many years ago I used to mess around with cars as a hobby, but I have been inactive for about 15 years or so. The FiST has been my re-introduction to the automotive hobby and I have already felt the mud bug biting......And I can already feel those once forgotten feelings of wanting more more more . It's the old "if 200 hp is good, 250 is better, then 300", etc. etc. When I look back on the last car that I toyed around with, if I think clearly and honestly about it, it was probably the most fun when it was in one of its more moderate phases. That was the sweetspot. When it made sub 200 hp it was not enough, when it was triple that it was too much, something in the middle was perfect. Finding that perfect spot for the FiST is what I am trying to figure out now, and I am starting to think (likely to the chagrin of our many valued aftermarker suppliers), that it probably involves the stock turbo and many other stock parts as well.


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You are right. I have no regrets and wouldn't have modded my car any other way. It is nice to have 300 for those rare times like when a new Ecoboost Mustang tried to blitz past me the other day...hahaha. But as I have often said, the power is mostly unusable. 4wd and 300 would be perfect. I have ridden in a friends >400whp Fiesta ST. About the only time he can put that power down is (a) at the track with slicks (b) going over 60mph racing a Corvette. That's maybe 1% of the time, the rest of the time my car is just as quick because spinning ain't winning.

As to your question, the perfect spot, I'd suggest stock turbo is NOT it. The Veloster N did it right - right around 250-275 iirc. That's the good spot. The car is transformed having power past 4500rpm, it takes it from quick to fast. So you'll need another turbo. I suggest hybrid so you keep down low power but get new power up to redline. I suggest stock fuel system and pump gas tune, that's all you need to make ~275 on a hybrid.

 

[4sfed4]

Thank you for the reply @jeff......From watching your YouTube videos I think you are a number of years ahead of me down the path[emoji16]

This fist is definitely about the most fun car I've ever had, and I don't want to ruin that fun factor by trying to turn it into something that it is not. That's what I'm trying to figure out where the line is between maintaining the cars original character, only amplifying it a little bit.......

After only a short time with the car, I definitely concur that the stock turbo is a little bit under when underwhelming. Running a tune almost amplifies the lack of top end (because you can feel the car nosing over even more because the low end has become so strong).


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[jeff]

Thank you for the reply @jeff......From watching your YouTube videos I think you are a number of years ahead of me down the path[emoji16]

This fist is definitely about the most fun car I've ever had, and I don't want to ruin that fun factor by trying to turn it into something that it is not. That's what I'm trying to figure out where the line is between maintaining the cars original character, only amplifying it a little bit.......

After only a short time with the car, I definitely concur that the stock turbo is a little bit under when underwhelming. Running a tune almost amplifies the lack of top end (because you can feel the car nosing over even more because the low end has become so strong).


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Yeah, nice to talk about something other than making our cars faster...I've been here for 5 years now and that has grown oldddddddddd.

The thing is, and I know from experience being on stock turbo with custom tune for ~ 1 year, stock turbo with bolt-ons and tune really doesn't make the car much faster. It brings a crazy torque surge and tons of wheel spin/traction loss, but it only adds about 30hp. That's a nice gain, but a hybrid turbo adds 100hp. So (just being honest) the +30hp means a Honda Odyssey van can no longer take you from a light. But +100hp means you can keep up with V8s.

And you are exactly right, a tuned stock turbo (again I have been saying this for years) mostly adds power ("mostly" - Newt) where it isn't needed, with a bit of help in the areas it's useable.

Some guys are spending $3000-$5000 on a stock turbo tune with bolt-ons. For the same amount you can get a hybrid with only the needed hardware and actually make power.

If you're interested I have a YT vid that I spent alot of time on, I researched the true cost of a turbo upgrade, check it out of you want a sensible discussion on this topic. You really can add ~100hp for under $5000 start to finish if you wrench yourself, and it transforms the car.

 

[4sfed4]

The car is transformed having power past 4500rpm, it takes it from quick to fast. So you'll need another turbo. I suggest hybrid so you keep down low power but get new power up to redline. I suggest stock fuel system and pump gas tune, that's all you need to make ~275 on a hybrid.

Yes, pretty much everything that I have learned from others thus far is that 275 on 93 and maybe 300 on E30 is about the limit of the hybrid. That coincides nicely with the stock fuel system limits, so if one had no desires to ever add HPFP/injectors, aux fuel, or meth, it is probably not worthwhile to entertain anything that will give up low/mid range power for top end.

What I would really like to see is, on the same car, a hybrid vs S280 dyno plot. The only thing I don't like about the hybrids is they still tail off pretty quickly after hitting torque peak.


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[jeff]

I'll add that owning a G1 Cooper S now has helped me understand some of this. In some ways that car is more fun than my Fiesta because I can give it the beans around a corner and it sticks. Slow car fast. But the Fiesta ST is the much better car overall for about 7,301 reasons.....

All this said, tuning could resolve these problems but who wants to limit the power available after adding hardware? Right foot = throttle control = happiness.

 

[4sfed4]

Yeah, nice to talk about something other than making our cars faster...I've been here for 5 years now and that has grown oldddddddddd.

The thing is, and I know from experience being on stock turbo with custom tune for ~ 1 year, stock turbo with bolt-ons and tune really doesn't make the car much faster. It brings a crazy torque surge and tons of wheel spin/traction loss, but it only adds about 30hp.

No doubt about this. I can't say enough about the dizzy E30 tune that I have, the car does feel a lot stronger. But in reality, there is only so much that stock turbo can do and the actual power gain is fairly limited. On Vdyno my car went from 177whp to 207 whp with E30 and a V3 IC. So yes, exactly the 30 hp gain you mentioned.


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[jeff]

Yes, pretty much everything that I have learned from others thus far is that 275 on 93 and maybe 300 on E30 is about the limit of the hybrid. That coincides nicely with the stock fuel system limits, so if one had no desires to ever add HPFP/injectors, aux fuel, or meth, it is probably not worthwhile to entertain anything that will give up low/mid range power for top end.

What I would really like to see is, on the same car, a hybrid vs S280 dyno plot. The only thing I don't like about the hybrids is they still tail off pretty quickly after hitting torque peak.


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Hybrids are still making 250wtq at redline. For a 2700 lb car that is a lot. Despite what the graph says, the car feels like it is increasing in pull the higher you climb toward redline. With my X47 it feels strongest from 5000-7000.

Again, 250wtq is a whole lot. And keep this in mind too, "big turbos" tend to have less torque than hybrids. My car has 337wtq at peak. To sustain that to redline would be insanity....the mild torque curve downward as it approaches redline in no way feels like a loss of power. Remember, horsepower is climbing to redline, and it is very noticeable.

 

[4sfed4]

.

Some guys are spending $3000-$5000 on a stock turbo tune with bolt-ons. For the same amount you can get a hybrid with only the needed hardware and actually make power.

If you're interested I have a YT vid that I spent alot of time on, I researched the true cost of a turbo upgrade, check it out of you want a sensible discussion on this topic. You really can add ~100hp for under $5000 start to finish if you wrench yourself, and it transforms the car.

Fortunately, I trolled around on this board for a while before spending any money on the car. I also had my (now outdated and 15-year-old past experience) working on old-school Turbo Dodges (where junkyard solutions ruled). We never spent that kind of money on car mods. For $5000 you had a car making 400 hp and that included the car, LOL[emoji16]. That is one thing I don't see much of on the fist platform....alternate solutions to problems. Perhaps I am simply ignorant of the reasons why these alternate solutions won't work[emoji16]


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[4sfed4]

Again, 250wtq is a whole lot. And keep this in mind too, "big turbos" tend to have less torque than hybrids. My car has 337wtq at peak. To sustain that to redline would be insanity....the mild torque curve downward as it approaches redline in no way feels like a loss of power. Remember, horsepower is climbing to redline, and it is very noticeable.

That is the secret to the big power numbers, you don't necessarily need more torque, you just need to be able to hold it for longer. Pretty much every Honda ever built is based around this premise, LOL!


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[Capri to ST]

I think the concept of a sweet spot is a good one. For me, that's the factory approved tune that adds a little bit of extra power and includes a new lower airbox to bring in some more cold air and some nice sounds. The other thing that I did is aftermarket wheels in stock size which are 5 lb lighter per corner, making the car lighter on its feet and taking away some unsprung weight, which is always a good thing to do. I've had the car for 4 years now and this is probably all I'm going to do to it. For me, the balance is good right now and it retains all its original fun characteristics. I'm also probably older than you guys and don't have as much need for speed as I used to.
On my other car forum a guy posted a funny and helpful thread about the incredible number of suspension changes he had made, every permutation and combination of shocks and springs you can do. After years of that and many thousands of dollars spent, he ended up deciding the best thing was stock shocks with close to stock spec lowering springs which moderately lowered the car.

 

[4sfed4]

Here is something extracted from one of Jason's posts in his blog. In my mind (ignoring the fact that this was a test checking out the fueling limits), The 341 whp E50 power curve looks absolutely perfect for this car. The peak torque value remains moderate (that could obviously be spiked up higher without the upward boost taper/lower rpm boost limit), and the power continues to climb in a fairly linear fashion to redline. I will bet that car feels awesome, yet maintains decent traction.

 

[4sfed4]

If you're interested I have a YT vid that I spent alot of time on, I researched the true cost of a turbo upgrade, check it out of you want a sensible discussion on this topic. You really can add ~100hp for under $5000 start to finish if you wrench yourself, and it transforms the car.

I will check out your video, thanks for mentioning it. As for turning wrenches, I haven't done it for about 15 years, but I started doing it again on this car and I'm rather enjoying it. I'm not sure I would want to get into it as heavily as I did before, (meaning having engines on stands and rebuilding them in my garage for fun, etc), but fairly simple stuff like turbo swaps, intercooler installations, etc still sound like fun even though I am nearing a half century old😁