Did I overheat my tires?

[arlisscm]

So here's the rundown.

Toyo Proxes R1R 245/25/r17 on 17x9 wheels, 1/16th toe out, -2.5 deg camber. Tires mounted last July, about 5K miles with about 12 track sessions last year, 2 this year at Watkins Glen, and another two full sessions this past week at PittRace. Tires brought inside for the winter.

Cold pressure usually around 36psi. hot 44 and 42 front and rear respectively (been told that's probably a little high, so it may have contributed).

Was running at the Glen at the end of March, tires were great, but blew my clutch early in the day, so I only got a few sessions.

Cut to this week down at PittRace, felt like I was ice skating, tried lower pressure, higher pressure to no avail.

Tires had 4-5/32nds tread before heading down to PittRace.

A few laps into my 3rd session I'm hearing a swishing sound and feel a synchronous vibration in the wheel, so I pit in.

Upon inspection I find total devastation of the front tires (rears were expectedly ok).


So, to all the more experienced track drivers out there, did I overheat them? Overinflate them? Did they heat cycle out? Some combination therein? My alignment isn't crazy aggressive and I verified it again yesterday.

Brand new set of tires mounted, balanced, and installed yesterday.

Thanks in advance.

 

[WannabeST]

With the information given, my opinions are:
- I agree tire pressure is too high, I have less power and less tire but I shoot for 28-32f and 35-38r psi. Even when I am tracking my mustang (4k pounds with me in it) I am not getting into the 40+psi range.
- Heat cycles, at 12 heat cycles, the tires have probably lost pace and are not at peak grip, but they should still grip at about 70-80% of what they are capable of. The only way I could see 12 heat cycles playing a role here is if these tires are old and could not hold together after the heat cycles (I've had this happen on 6 year old tires)
- Toe out, while it makes the car turn in and rotate better, accelerated tire wear is the main reason I do not run any toe personally. Most of the people I know running toe on their cars are competing and either don't care about tire wear or are buying tires after they get a certain amount of heat cycles. I personally run zero toe on all my cars and enjoy driving my tires to the cords even if they lose pace.
- Have you run these same alignment settings on a different tire? if you are not chasing a certain time and/or competing. I would switch to zero toe and drop tire pressure as my first adjustments.

 

[arlisscm]

Unfortunately I can't try different tires, for the time being with my setup I'm pigeonholed to the proxes, not really any 245/35r17s out there. I'm working on getting a set of 16s for the track to open up my tire options.

Markings on the tire indicate they were made sometime in April 2023, so only a few months before I had them mounted. So I would hope age wasn't a factor.

I just do HPDE so I'm not trying to win anything.
I have more track days coming up in July so I'll reset the toe to 0, and give lower pressure a try.

The 1/16th toe was originally setup at a local shop (owner runs with SCCA I think) so he probably had race car on the brain.

I'm just there to learn and hopefully improve season over season.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[WannabeST]

Age of tires definitely should not have been an issue. The toe setting likely was having a fwd racecar in mind. I used to run some toe out on my old integra, it was faster, but I would rather get an extra track day out of my tires.

Shameless plug, but if you want to try the Continental ECF tires, they make them in a 245/40/17. Slightly taller tire but with my discount code in my signature you will get one of the tires for free when you buy a set.

 

[green_henry]

Age of tires definitely should not have been an issue. The toe setting likely was having a fwd racecar in mind. I used to run some toe out on my old integra, it was faster, but I would rather get an extra track day out of my tires.

Shameless plug, but if you want to try the Continental ECF tires, they make them in a 245/40/17. Slightly taller tire but with my discount code in my signature you will get one of the tires for free when you buy a set.

Agree on the toe setting for sure

 

[ronmcdon]

I'd probably experiment with the rs4's in 245/40/17. height wise they are 24.5" so a bit lower in tire height and not quite as wide. I think a lot of the popular 200tw in that size veer closer to 24.7 to 25.0. 225s should work ok with 9" wide wheels too. not sure if higher ride height wold get more clearance.

 

[arlisscm]

Back in 2022 the Proxes were on backorder for around a year or so, so I ran a set of Nitto NT05s in a 235/40R17, they fit ok but I had to address some pretty bad rubbing on the rear side of the front fender wells on turn in. (wheels are ET20) So, with less offset and a wider wheel/tire the swing radius is quite a bit higher. I was able to do some massaging to make the useable, but I would assume trying a 245/40R17 would be even worse.

My eventual plan is to get a set of 16x8 wheels for a track setup to run some 225/45R16s to open up my wheel options.

I've got 6 more track days scheduled for this year, so I'll set my toe to 0 and experiment with lower tire pressures and see how this set holds up.

Even so, I appreciate everyone's suggestions/advice, keep them coming as it gives me potential new avenues to look into.

 

[ronmcdon]

you are running 17x9’s yes yes?

you think 225s would work? Its not a terrible stretch on 9s and may increase responsiveness

I wish I could find the article on grassroots motorsports. One of the findings they had was it was more advantageous to run wider wheels, all things equal (my guess is that with the stretch being more reasonable).

matching tire width to wheel width did not make a notable difference ie, using a 205/16 tire on 16x8 wheel (what I use), vs 225/16 on 16x8 wheel.

I actually have sat on a set of 17x8 +35 wheels and m2 flares for some, but not installed them having gotten distracted by other stuff.

was really hoping we can throw on wider tires but maybe wider wheels and with moderate stretch is the best compromise.

 

[arlisscm]

I'm not against a little stretch to throw some 225s on my wheels (17x9), the only issue is the available aspect ratios (subsequently diameters) for 225/XXR17s. Seems like the "smallest" available would be a 225/40R17 (listed wheel width 7.5"-9") which is pretty close in diameter, but not a whole lot of options to choose from there as well.

I have the M2 flares installed/factory fenders cut, and a moderate drop, and 245/35R17s on 17x9 et20 fits nice. I suspect with 17x8 et 35 you could really tuck them if you so chose.

I'm looking to get a set of 16x8 et15 as a track wheel (financially unfortunately, Braid seems to be the only option because of our goofy bolt circle), this will keep track width about the same, but opens up tire options.

 

[M-Sport fan]

The added benefit (to maybe slightly offset the ridiculously prohibitive co$t of the Braids) is that they are strong enough to stand up to the constant curb pounding excursions of open tracking, much better than most of the other 'go-to' track wheels out there, so you would be replacing them much less often.

 

[arlisscm]

The added benefit (to maybe slightly offset the ridiculously prohibitive co$t of the Braids) is that they are strong enough to stand up to the constant curb pounding excursions of open tracking, much better than most of the other 'go-to' track wheels out there, so you would be replacing them much less often.

Yeah, that's ultimately my justification, I buy a set and unless I really mess up, they'll probably last until I have another car to track.

It doesn't take much of an argument for me to justify car parts to myself.

 

[WannabeST]

The added benefit (to maybe slightly offset the ridiculously prohibitive co$t of the Braids) is that they are strong enough to stand up to the constant curb pounding excursions of open tracking, much better than most of the other 'go-to' track wheels out there, so you would be replacing them much less often.

This factor actually gets overlooked a lot, a cheap wheel isn't so cheap if you need to replace 1-2 every year or every handful of events.

 

[ronmcdon]

I'm not against a little stretch to throw some 225s on my wheels (17x9), the only issue is the available aspect ratios (subsequently diameters) for 225/XXR17s. Seems like the "smallest" available would be a 225/40R17 (listed wheel width 7.5"-9") which is pretty close in diameter, but not a whole lot of options to choose from there as well.

I have the M2 flares installed/factory fenders cut, and a moderate drop, and 245/35R17s on 17x9 et20 fits nice. I suspect with 17x8 et 35 you could really tuck them if you so chose.

I'm looking to get a set of 16x8 et15 as a track wheel (financially unfortunately, Braid seems to be the only option because of our goofy bolt circle), this will keep track width about the same, but opens up tire options.

ah shoot, meant to say I have 17x9’s +35. for better or worse, I got Braid to make them, so sadly not cheap.

225/40/17 yes you’re right. Theres only the continental extreme contact as an option for 200tw tire.

wonder if you think that setup, would rub w/ m2 flares? I have my meister gt1 coilovers set to stock ride height. thinking that should lower chances of rubbing. then just lower and trim more of the body as needed

 

[hawyee]

I got a quote from Jongbloed Racing, a custom pair of 15x9"s would run about $1500 so cheaper than Braid and they're a pretty prestigious manufacturer. I think that's the ideal size to save weight and fit the widest tire at least with stock fenders. Will likely pick them up in the near future hopefully when I have some spare cash.

 

[arlisscm]

ah shoot, meant to say I have 17x9’s +35. for better or worse, I got Braid to make them, so sadly not cheap.

225/40/17 yes you’re right. Theres only the continental extreme contact as an option for 200tw tire.

wonder if you think that setup, would rub w/ m2 flares? I have my meister gt1 coilovers set to stock ride height. thinking that should lower chances of rubbing. then just lower and trim more of the body as needed

17x9 +35 should be ok depending on tire size, a little more offset so your swing radius will be a little lower. When I had the 235/40r17s on, the main area I had an issue was the rear side of the front fender wells. There is a pinch seam behind the liners that I had to cut and fold, then I had to modify the liners to be flat. The liners have a rib on them to go around the pinch seam. Unfortunately I didn't take any pictures while I was doing this. Lastly, on the rocker panel covers (bottom side at the rear of the fender wells), I had to cut most of the plastic away and replaced it with a thin piece of aluminum to thin it out enough for the tire to have clearance on turn in. With the changes I didn't get any rubbing on track, but a little bit at full steering lock. Also, every now and again on a really big bump I scrubbed the rear fender liners. But mine were already smoked from when I have 215/45r17s on the factory wheels (pretty tall). I haven't measured, but I'm probably around 3/4 lower than stock or so. I might have some pictures around of the fender cuts when doing the flares if you need them.

 

[faust]

If I'm reading right, that's 16 track sessions on those tires before they corded, correct? Based on the amount of wear I see on my Stones after one aggressive session, I'd say your tires lasted reasonably long. My car is basically stock & I abuse the E diff as much as possible.

Guess I'm not sure what you mean by a session -- is that each time you go out and drive for say 20 minutes, or do you mean a full track day?

I'm curious how much track time people are typically seeing from their tires.

 

[arlisscm]

If I'm reading right, that's 16 track sessions on those tires before they corded, correct? Based on the amount of wear I see on my Stones after one aggressive session, I'd say your tires lasted reasonably long. My car is basically stock & I abuse the E diff as much as possible.

Guess I'm not sure what you mean by a session -- is that each time you go out and drive for say 20 minutes, or do you mean a full track day?

I'm curious how much track time people are typically seeing from their tires.

For a session I mean each time out on track, usual sessions vary between 20-30 minutes. I had around 14 sessions on these tires total so around ~6 hours of track time with about 5K street miles mixed in.

I started tracking the car back in 2021, but I only did 2 days (8 sessions) and it was my first time so I probably didn't push very hard. Those tires were almost toast before I went to the track so they got replaced afterwards.

In 2022 I did 4 days (16 sessions) and around 5-6K street miles on a set.

Last year I did 8ish days (12 sessions or so), 4 days (8 sessions) on one set, then another 4 sessions or so on another set (didn't get all 8 as my turbo came apart).

This year, got about 2.5 sessions in May on the same set from the latter part of last year, then my clutch went. Then in June about another 2.5 sessions on this same set and they are the ones pictured above.

I'd have to check my log book to confirm everything but I believe I'm remembering correctly.

So I guess the most sessions I have done on a set was 16, and that was only my 2nd year tracking so I wasn't running them as hard as I do now.