Hi again, e30!

[Wolfsbora]

It’s been at least a year since I ran Dizzy Jason’s e30 tune. The closest e85 gas station was at least 30 minutes away. I have been happily running his stage 2 93 tune ever since but I’ve missed that extra pull from the e30. I just found out that a gas station within 12-15 minutes now has e85. Looks like e30 will be a regular thing from here on out.

For those of you on the fence about it, not only should you get the e30, get the bundle with either stage 1 or stage 2 (depending on your car’s mods)! I wouldn’t run any other tunes than Jason’s. He’s clearly put in the massive amount of research and testing to deliver on his top notch tunes. Consider him a maestro in the field!

 

[M-Sport fan]

I wish that the many Speedway stations around here offered E85.

But damn, that 93 is $$$ (I can get Sunoco 94 around here for less than that!)

 

[FJ16]

I switched a few months ago, and what really made the decision easy is the fact that select local stations not only carry E85, but carry premixed E30 advertised as their "Super Premium". I was wary at first and really took it easy on the car the first few tanks, but I've had zero issues filling up so far. Cheaper and more convenient is great!

 

[Wolfsbora]

I wish that the many Speedway stations around here offered E85.

But damn, that 93 is $$$ (I can get Sunoco 94 around here for less than that!)

It’s the only Speedway around that has E85. There’s a closer location but they don’t have it.
Would love access to 94! I haven’t seen that anywhere around here.

I switched a few months ago, and what really made the decision easy is the fact that select local stations not only carry E85, but carry premixed E30 advertised as their "Super Premium". I was wary at first and really took it easy on the car the first few tanks, but I've had zero issues filling up so far. Cheaper and more convenient is great!

I had no idea gas stations were doing a premix! Is E30 that popular??

 

[Ford ST]

I switched a few months ago, and what really made the decision easy is the fact that select local stations not only carry E85, but carry premixed E30 advertised as their "Super Premium". I was wary at first and really took it easy on the car the first few tanks, but I've had zero issues filling up so far. Cheaper and more convenient is great!

Is the E30 mixed with 87 or 93? What is the advertised octane for the E30 super premium mix?

 

[Wolfsbora]

Is the E30 mixed with 87 or 93? What is the advertised octane for the E30 super premium mix?

Good questions. I’m curious, as well.

 

[FJ16]

Is the E30 mixed with 87 or 93? What is the advertised octane for the E30 super premium mix?

That is actually a good question, I'll have to look for that info when I have a minute.

It is advertised as 93 octane but states it is an E30 blend.

 

[Ford ST]

That is actually a good question, I'll have to look for that info when I have a minute.

It is advertised as 93 octane but states it is an E30 blend.

It is mixed with 87 then. If you play with the E30 calculators 93 is about what you get when you mix 87 with E85 to make E30. If you mix it with 93 you get 96. Assuming that gas has about 10% ethanol already in it. Sure ethanol has a cooling effect, but E30 mixed with 87 is not the same as E30 mixed with 93. Basically 93 octane vs 96 octane.

 

[Mega ST]

I monitor OAR (Octane Adjustment Ratio) all the time and it never moves from the optimal -1.00 even when running slightly less than E30 on my Dizzy E30 tune. If I'm close to E but not near an E85 gas station I put in a few Gallons of 93 to get me where I'm going in a pinch. Even then the OAR never changes even with spirited driving. Never tried the premixed stuff. They have it not far from where I commute every day.

 

[Ford ST]

I monitor OAR (Octane Adjustment Ratio) all the time and it never moves from the optimal -1.00 even when running slightly less than E30 on my Dizzy E30 tune. If I'm close to E but not near an E85 gas station I put in a few Gallons of 93 to get me where I'm going in a pinch. Even then the OAR never changes even with spirited driving. Never tried the premixed stuff. They have it not far from where I commute every day.

What about ignition corrections?

 

[Dialcaliper]

I switched a few months ago, and what really made the decision easy is the fact that select local stations not only carry E85, but carry premixed E30 advertised as their "Super Premium". I was wary at first and really took it easy on the car the first few tanks, but I've had zero issues filling up so far. Cheaper and more convenient is great!

Lucky - it sounds like you might be a recipient of one of the pilot programs in Nebraska and Kansas.

It was harder to find than I thought, but pump E30 blend is apparently 87+Ethanol with minimum 94.4 Octane, and is being evaluated just like E15 as being compatible with normal non-flex fuel engines

https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-high-octane-fuels-challenges-opportunities

 

[Mega ST]

I monitor one and four and never see anything in the negative. OAR it will also adjust towards positive if it sees knock. I don't do this often mind you. Just something I have observed.

 

[Ford ST]

Lucky - it sounds like you might be a recipient of one of the pilot programs in Nebraska and Kansas.

It was harder to find than I thought, but pump E30 blend is apparently 87+Ethanol with minimum 94.4 Octane, and is being evaluated just like E15 as being compatible with normal non-flex fuel engines

https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-high-octane-fuels-challenges-opportunities

I would call that article some serious misinformation. "They are finding that fuels that blend between 25 to 40 percent ethanol (E25 to E40) with conventional gasoline, instead of the current 10 percent ethanol blend (E10), can lead to greater fuel efficiencies" That is some bull on every level. Ethanol has less energy in it. Also that say E15 has a octane rating of 92.6. E15 is sold in my area as 88 octane.

 

[gtx3076]

I see negative corrections all of the time. Tune+ doesn't seem concerned about it after sending him logs.

 

[Dialcaliper]

I would call that article some serious misinformation. "They are finding that fuels that blend between 25 to 40 percent ethanol (E25 to E40) with conventional gasoline, instead of the current 10 percent ethanol blend (E10), can lead to greater fuel efficiencies" That is some bull on every level. Ethanol has less energy in it. Also that say E15 has a octane rating of 92.6. E15 is sold in my area as 88 octane.

There is some cheerleading in that article for sure, but I picked it mostly because the E15 E30 values in the table are referring to the EPA standard for fuels that can be legally marketed under those names.

Your 88 octane E15 is likely a novel use of crap 85 octane gas blended with ethanol.

That said, the article is not wrong. With modern engine computers that are tuned to make use of varying fuel octane to advance timing and other operating parameters (like the OAR), you can potentially achieve nearly equal gas mileage on E15/E30 when compared gallon per gallon with standard 87 octane. That *is* because of higher efficiency operation, despite the reduced energy content of the ethanol. That said, modern turbocharged engines can also reach even better fuel economy using 91-94 Octane over 87.

The point being made is that achieving equal gas mileage to 87 using a cheaper fuel (instead of more expensive premium fuel) is a win, and slightly cleaner as well.

 

[Ford ST]

There is some cheerleading in that article for sure, but I picked it mostly because the E15 E30 values in the table are referring to the EPA standard for fuels that can be legally marketed under those names.

Your 88 octane E15 is likely a novel use of crap 85 octane gas blended with ethanol.

That said, the article is not wrong. With modern engine computers that are tuned to make use of varying fuel octane to advance timing and other operating parameters (like the OAR), you can potentially achieve nearly equal gas mileage on E15/E30 when compared gallon per gallon with standard 87 octane. That *is* because of higher efficiency operation, despite the reduced energy content of the ethanol. That said, modern turbocharged engines can also reach even better fuel economy using 91-94 Octane over 87.

The point being made is that achieving equal gas mileage to 87 using a cheaper fuel (instead of more expensive premium fuel) is a win, and slightly cleaner as well.

Do not agree at all. I know on every vehicle I have I would see a reduction in fuel mileage if I were to run a higher ethanol fuel. Just going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[Dialcaliper]

Do not agree at all. I know on every vehicle I have I would see a reduction in fuel mileage if I were to run a higher ethanol fuel. Just going to have to agree to disagree.

I probably won’t convince you, but have you actually tried it (for an extended period, not just a tank or two).

Here’s food for thought. When you are able to increase power by advancing timing, fuel and air into the engine *don’t* change. You are literally extracting heat energy that would otherwise combust later in the stroke and just get blown out the exhaust. This is how you can get more power out of E30 and race gas than you would otherwise expect, just by advancing timing.

The same thing happens at any load point, not just at WOT. And since you can get more power out of the same fuel quantity, it very much follows that you can chose to reduce fuel (and maybe air, or just run lean) and increase timing to achieve the same power output, even at light cruising loads.

It is rarely explored in aftermarket tuning, but car manufacturers spend thousands of hours on part throttle tuning engines, and the algorithms that monitor for corrections and dynamically add and subtract timing on newer cars are primarily there to exploit that, not just to occasionally make more power.

I can almost guarantee that most cars that are designed for high octane, but readily adapt to low octane fuels will get slightly better mileage (as well as emissions) on high test. The main problem is that it’s subtle, and usually never quite enough to justify the 5-10% higher cost of premium gas.

When it comes to E15 and E30 fuel economy, remember that standard gas is almost universally E10 already, so it’s not as big a jump as you’d think to make up for the lower energy content of ethanol. It just doesn’t keep going all the way to E85 because at some point with high knock resistance, increasing timing in most cases starts the burn too early and you just can’t make use of the higher octane

 

[Ford ST]

I probably won’t convince you, but have you actually tried it (for an extended period, not just a tank or two).

Here’s food for thought. When you are able to increase power by advancing timing, fuel and air into the engine *don’t* change. You are literally extracting heat energy that would otherwise combust later in the stroke and just get blown out the exhaust. This is how you can get more power out of E30 and race gas than you would otherwise expect, just by advancing timing.

The same thing happens at any load point, not just at WOT. And since you can get more power out of the same fuel quantity, it very much follows that you can chose to reduce fuel (and maybe air, or just run lean) and increase timing to achieve the same power output, even at light cruising loads.

It is rarely explored in aftermarket tuning, but car manufacturers spend thousands of hours on part throttle tuning engines, and the algorithms that monitor for corrections and dynamically add and subtract timing on newer cars are primarily there to exploit that, not just to occasionally make more power.

I can almost guarantee that most cars that are designed for high octane, but readily adapt to low octane fuels will get slightly better mileage (as well as emissions) on high test. The main problem is that it’s subtle, and usually never quite enough to justify the 5-10% higher cost of premium gas.

When it comes to E15 and E30 fuel economy, remember that standard gas is almost universally E10 already, so it’s not as big a jump as you’d think to make up for the lower energy content of ethanol. It just doesn’t keep going all the way to E85 because at some point with high knock resistance, increasing timing in most cases starts the burn too early and you just can’t make use of the higher octane

If you have read about the people who use a E30 tune over let's say a 93 tune. They see a reduction in fuel mileage. I have access to 91 non ethanol top tier gas. I get the best fuel mileage in my daily driver from it not really worth the cost though. I am sure there are certain examples on certain engines where if you put non ethanol let's say 85 versus E15 91, 88 in my area though. Maybe the E15 would result in better fuel mileage, because it allows the engine to perform much better than 85 which is horrible. Also when I play around with the octane calculators if I take 87 octane assuming it has ten percent ethanol in it, and I increase it by five percent I get E15 88.26 octane. If I take non ethanol 85 and add fifteen percent ethanol I get E15 88.6 octane. So at the end of the day I call bull on that paper. This article actually says E15 has 88 octane, and it's coming from the State that benefits the most from ethanol. https://iowarfa.org/ethanol-center/e15/e15-facts/

Last thing I will say. I do believe higher octane fuel can result in better fuel mileage. I believe we should actually set a higher standard and get rid of 87 at the very least. This would allow manufacturers to make engines with higher compression and more aggressive ignition timing. Not only more power but better fuel mileage. The Mazda SkyActiv engine has less compression in American than Japan due to the fuel. I don't want higher ethanol fuel though. E10 max.

 

[gtx3076]

I probably won’t convince you, but have you actually tried it (for an extended period, not just a tank or two).

Here’s food for thought. When you are able to increase power by advancing timing, fuel and air into the engine *don’t* change. You are literally extracting heat energy that would otherwise combust later in the stroke and just get blown out the exhaust. This is how you can get more power out of E30 and race gas than you would otherwise expect, just by advancing timing.

The same thing happens at any load point, not just at WOT. And since you can get more power out of the same fuel quantity, it very much follows that you can chose to reduce fuel (and maybe air, or just run lean) and increase timing to achieve the same power output, even at light cruising loads.

It is rarely explored in aftermarket tuning, but car manufacturers spend thousands of hours on part throttle tuning engines, and the algorithms that monitor for corrections and dynamically add and subtract timing on newer cars are primarily there to exploit that, not just to occasionally make more power.

I can almost guarantee that most cars that are designed for high octane, but readily adapt to low octane fuels will get slightly better mileage (as well as emissions) on high test. The main problem is that it’s subtle, and usually never quite enough to justify the 5-10% higher cost of premium gas.

When it comes to E15 and E30 fuel economy, remember that standard gas is almost universally E10 already, so it’s not as big a jump as you’d think to make up for the lower energy content of ethanol. It just doesn’t keep going all the way to E85 because at some point with high knock resistance, increasing timing in most cases starts the burn too early and you just can’t make use of the higher octane

This is the second car I've owned that I have run E30 and 93 on. I believe the best mileage I've ever gotten was around 32mpg on E30 if I cruise 65mph during the summer. Right now I'm getting around 28mpg, and that's driving 80mph+. If I switch back to my 93 tune I could probably average 34mpg without even trying.

 

[Wolfsbora]

Thank you all for this eduction! I also track ignition correction on 1 and 4. I now have a better understanding of their importance.