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The new car sales games dealers play......

jmrtsus

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#1
Our quest this week of buying a new car (Mustang GT) for my wife hit the expected bumps and a few new ones from the dealers. These games are common for all new cars.

We found the car my wife wanted in Fl after doing days of zip code searches for an exact match on Ford build and price. Orlando had an exact match and a Daytona dealer had an exact match but also the B&O sound system.....$1000 more. So the game was afoot for dealing. My wife was going to FL for a week to see her new granddaughter so it should have been easy to buy the car there. My plan was to play one dealer against the other.

First game was getting the initial prices with rebates online......the Orlando dealer after 3 days was a no go on paperwork we gave up on getting an actual invoice to pick up a check from our Bank for financing. The games they played was incorrect taxes by $600 over and they played the stall and did not provide the invoice to cripple our efforts to get a check, I called it to my wife before it happened. Not new to me as the car buyer. They also wanted to keep all the rebates for the financing, I told them they were crazy and Ford would not be amused at them taking my VET rebate or Ford bonus cash. Another "error" on their part. They wanted the financing profits and that is normal, just don't expect them to help you with outside financing. BTW, we thought the Orlando dealer had another offer as they stopped pushing for a deposit and went 3 days with no contact. Today while my wife was in Daytona the Orlando dealer called wanting to know if she was picking the car up in Orlando. I think the higher deal they had fell through....Karma is a bitch even for a car dealer.

The dealer in Daytona also stalled on an invoice even though we agreed on a price. Finally got one but the rate from the bank was not better than adding the $2000 rebate to the sales price for the "O%" Ford financing. We finally got a price $500 under the other car without the $1000 stereo. Accepted price, why not? Cheaper and stereo thrown in free. An hour later with wife on the phone they dropped another $500 out of the blue??? HMMMM? All was well for pick up this morning.

The set up

When she got there she drove the car they set up Sync for her phone, had a full tank of gas, went over the controls and commented that the car was "already" broken in for her. But ......wait for it..... there was errors on the prices on the paperwork that my wife made them correct, almost never have I bought a car where I did not find "mistakes" on the paperwork. Shocking how computers make all those mistakes!

147 miles....WTF?

My wife not really comprehending what they were saying went in to pass a check and take the keys. But she texted me and said the car had 147 miles on it before writing the check. Long story short I asked the finance man why the car had 147 miles on it. After 45 years of buying new cars I found out that "ALL new Fords come from the factory with 50-60 miles on them". I told him he was a lying sack of shit! He then told me the other 80 miles was because "Ford did not deliver new cars to Daytona" the Dealer had to drive them from Jacksonville to Daytona. I told him he was a P.O.S. liar and we walked away from the deal.

Without knowing the truth about who was driving the car I did not want it. Posted a 1 star rating on Facebook and ripped them on the lies about the mileage. Within 15 minutes I got a call from a corporate type guy who wanted to "fix it". End result was he basically admitted even he can't get an answer as to how the mileage got on the car and agrees it was probably joyriding by staff. So his solution is to order a new one, prep it when it comes in and have it trucked to NC where my wife is and delivered to her door. We were promised that in writing Monday............we shall see but I think it will happen. It will cost about $4-500 for delivery but they have enough fat on the bone to eat that for sure. But we wait for 6-8 weeks. The quest goes on and dealers never change..lie cheat and steal. Or more likely "Dewey, Cheatem and Howe"! My wife was completely shocked at the things the dealer tried, she thought the people were wonderful at the dealer. Until all the things I predicted they tried. The mileage excuse is a classic "stupid" lie. Either he was stupid or thought I was or both!

I do get weary of the constant battle to buy a car....but understand it will never change. I think the biggest scam today is the "doc" fee fiasco. On this forum I have seen people refer to it as normal! Some states have laws limiting it to $75 and other states it is the Wild,Wild West with up to $1000. I scratch it off from the get go. Just more games to convince you "everybody pays it". No they don't....just the uninformed.


Hope some of this gives you some things to watch for. Never buy a performance car with dealer miles on it. Especially a Coyote engine!
 

Ford ST

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Good luck I would never go through all that just for a mustang it's not a Lamborghini. I literally talked to my Wife about getting a Fiesta ST while we were grocery shopping she was fully supportive. I pulled out my phone had a car that evening in my driveway $4,500 off no BS done.
You may be dead tomorrow so just get the mustang and enjoy it.

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I routinely sell cars with 100-200 miles on the odometer.. if a dealership in NC needs a truck of ours they’ll drive something from their inventory we’d like in exchange up to us. Dealerships aren’t going to pay to truck cars store to store when they can pay some old retiree $50 to drive it there

Just sold a new truck with 528 miles on the odometer yesterday. Was driven to us from NY.

And everyone pays the doc fee. It can be considered discriminatory if it’s waived for one customer and not another.
 

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I routinely sell cars with 100-200 miles on the odometer.. if a dealership in NC needs a truck of ours they’ll drive something from their inventory we’d like in exchange up to us. Dealerships aren’t going to pay to truck cars store to store when they can pay some old retiree $50 to drive it there

Just sold a new truck with 528 miles on the odometer yesterday. Was driven to us from NY.

And everyone pays the doc fee. It can be considered discriminatory if it’s waived for one customer and not another.
Agreed. Lots of old men drive cars for dealerships. I also agree about the doc fee and discrimination.

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jmrtsus

jmrtsus

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Maybe in your world it works that way.....even consumer reports tells you not to pay it, it is a scam. That is why some states limit it to $75 dollars by LAW......pure scam has been called out by consumer organizations for years. I will not buy a joy ride car. Even the Corporate guy admitted he felt like the car had been used for joy rides as that dealer cannot tell him how the car got the miles on it. Dealers transfer cars for a sale of the car they do not stock the dealer lots with cars that "FORD does not deliver to Daytona." Who ever heard of Ford not delivering to some dealers......NEVER! You had a fool to buy a truck at new car prices with 528 mile unless it was sold and they agreed to it up front. So your dealer sells all cars for the same price because it might be discriminatory? Really? So every car has a no haggle price on it? Yep, you sound just like a new car salesman, BS extraordinaire! And why people get screwed at a dealer.


I have never and will never buy a new car with more than a couple of miles on it........I know too damn much about dealerships! Would you want a new car that the sales folk have been doing donuts and testing the track setting with 4 or 5 mile on a green engine? I don't and won't! And when a dealer cannot even tell you how the car got the miles...you run like hell, especially on a Coyote engine!
 
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#6
Consumer Reports said:
Sometimes called a "doc fee" or "conveyance fee," this is supposed to cover the dealer's cost for processing the paperwork for the purchase, title, and registration. Some states strictly limit this dealership fee, but most don't. Depending on the state, it can run from $100 to $500. This figure is generally preprinted on the sales contract.

We have found it impossible to get our local dealers to reduce or eliminate this fee. Instead, we make it part of the price negotiation: Try to get the dealer to reduce the price of the car by a similar amount, and let the fee stay on the purchase agreement. As a fallback negotiating tactic, ask that some accessory, such as floor mats, wheel locks, or a cargo organizer, be thrown in free of charge.
https://www.consumerreports.org/car...-for-these-dealership-fees-when-buying-a-car/

Really? Says right in their article they found it impossible to get their local dealers to waive it and if anything the car is discounted accordingly. Waiving a doc/processing fee for one person and not another is illegal.

We aren’t a no haggle dealership but “informed” customers like you are the ones who unknowingly get cracked because you think you know everything

Alfa Romeos are routinely shipped with 80-120 miles on the odometer because they’re ran on Alfa’s test track before leaving the factory. But you clearly know better than they do.

You’re really just a whiny dumbass. God forbid someone drove a precious Mustang overnight to see if they liked it on their morning commute or to fit in their garage.
 
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#7
All that matters is OTD, so you are comparing apple to apples. If one dealer has a lower price and a higher doc fee, it all equals out. Even worse when dealers advertise with out freight...but so long as you are informed/aware then it isn’t a problem.

I don’t care what a dealer calls their fees, so long as when I write the check it is for the best overall deal (which isn’t always just price, but that is a big factor).

147 miles wouldn’t bother me, but I’d look to see if it was a dealer transfer. A lot of time you can search the VIN and see if it was listed on a different dealers website. Or the windo sticker will tell you who was the original delivery dealer. I guess buyers like you are the reason that dealers often balk at doing extended test drives and take homes. I used to do an overnight test drive all the time, but I am finding more and more dealers balk at the idea. Shame, because you can’t really get to know a car on a 5 mile test ride and with a salesperson talking your ear off.
 
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#8
All that matters is OTD, so you are comparing apple to apples. If one dealer has a lower price and a higher doc fee, it all equals out. Even worse when dealers advertise with out freight...but so long as you are informed/aware then it isn’t a problem.

I don’t care what a dealer calls their fees, so long as when I write the check it is for the best overall deal (which isn’t always just price, but that is a big factor).

Absolutely. I see you’re in MD so you’re familiar with NOVA/MD advertising. It’s usually plus freight and dealer prep (which is bs nitrogen, wheel locks, etc for 1295) but either way you cut it the OTD is all that matters. Processing fee around here is $699-799 (one is 1095) but I still have customers driving from hours away because our OTDs are fantastic.
 
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jmrtsus

jmrtsus

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Thread Starter #9
Good luck I would never go through all that just for a mustang it's not a Lamborghini. I literally talked to my Wife about getting a Fiesta ST while we were grocery shopping she was fully supportive. I pulled out my phone had a car that evening in my driveway $4,500 off no BS done.
You may be dead tomorrow so just get the mustang and enjoy it.

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I am going through it for my wife, not me. In this case one dealer gave us $10K off this car (MSRP was $48,455).......but added $1300 in fees(doc., admin., taxable, non-taxable and a fuel surcharge(?) and an extra $600 overage in"taxes" and $450 in mandatory options. Then the added in additional rebates of $1500 we did not qualify for. The actual discount was under $5k.

Your $4500 off would be a joke with the $3250 rebates I had and added "doc" fees. So the "discount" on the car the dealer gave is totally fake until you factor in fees and rebates. Ford giving you money does not mean the dealer took it off the price....Ford gave you money, that money has jack to do with dealer mark-up. The dealer still makes their money and can still discount it. $4500 - $3250 rebate is $1250 the dealer took off if you had the $3250 rebate. Add your "doc" and other fees the dealer steals and you actually get a dealer "discount" of what, $250 dollars in this example? They make double that on just the invoice "holdback" from Ford on the car. In a nutshell $4500 off means zip without all the numbers. And each case will be different. To find the true dealer discount subtract rebates and and fees to see how much they actually took off the price. Most FiST buyers would be shocked to see what the dealer actually made on their super discounted car. I have seen people that truly believe they bought their fully loaded ST for $18K, but financed $23K! Looking at what people think they paid is a fun experience but does not help a new buyer. A "good" dealer can sell you a new loaded FiST and show the price as $15K........but add in $5k of fees! However it is illegal in a some states to do that.

The only reason for the outrageous "Doc" fees are when factory invoice prices became public a buyer knew exactly what a dealer paid for a car and the "holdback" on the car they get from Ford. So to convince the buyer they are getting a great price on the car they give a fake price and add the profit back as fees. That is the reason some states have made them illegal over $75, the states agreed it is just a sales scam. In states like mine the new car dealer associations spend many millions on political contributions to block such a law here. DON'T pay it and most of all don't buy the false rhetoric it is "normal".....states don't outlaw normal!
 

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I got $4,500 off the sticker price I don't give a shit where it came from. The doc fee is $595 that's the only damn fee I paid. I have my own financing I didn't pay for any extra BS. I know exactly how much money I financed. The problem is you think everybody is stupid and you're the only one that gets it. I didn't get screwed over I got a great car at $18,300 nothing to be upset about. Oh no damn trade-in either.
I'm not going to get into an argument and die of a stroke, and be a bitter old man over $595. That's pocket change to me.

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jmrtsus

jmrtsus

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Absolutely. I see you’re in MD so you’re familiar with NOVA/MD advertising. It’s usually plus freight and dealer prep (which is bs nitrogen, wheel locks, etc for 1295) but either way you cut it the OTD is all that matters. Processing fee around here is $699-799 (one is 1095) but I still have customers driving from hours away because our OTDs are fantastic.
Shipping is included in the MSRP in all states, it is clearly stated on the sticker. They have never separated it in any car I have bought in the five states I have negotiated a deal. Dealer prep is included in the MSRP, Ford requires them to do it. So I guess in MD that is another scam. The latest scam here is the South is acid etched windows for $500 with promises your insurance will be cheaper.....a bold face lie. I agree the bottom line should be OTD compared to other dealers OTD. I am just pointing out the you must account for the fees as profit not any thing to do with actual costs of service other that the $30 or so to process your TT&L. And the price is negotiable.......ALL of the price. Dealers have hundreds of ways to screw you, and unfortunately most buyers are taken by the dealers numbers game and the mantra that "everybody pays it".
If you even go into a dealership before you have a sales invoice in hand you probably got screwed. If you don't know the cost and holdback on the car you are buying you are screwed. And if you don't understand rebates and the fact that 0% financing is not 0% you are screwed. And most of all if you are not shopping multiple dealers at the same time you are screwed. Keep in mind salespeople are trained liars, if a salesman says it is a beautiful day it is storming! Years ago I taught many courses developed by Xerox in "sales skills" and "customer satisfaction skills" and they all boiled down to convincing career sales people that lies and false promises are part of sales and well tolerated if you make the customer think you care about them. "Everybody does it" was the mantra then too! I am retired and enjoy the battle and amusement sales people bring to life. I mean how stupid does it get when they say things like "all Fords come from the factory with 50-60 miles on them". That was the funniest thing I have heard from a salesman in years. Even better than the mantra repeated here on the forum by sales people......"everybody pays it"! Not if you know how to buy a car and most of all how not to buy a car.
 
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#13
You’re an absolute fucking moron. People like you are the reason dealerships come up with new fees because it’s sacrilege for a business to make a profit off you.

Great business model, open your own dealership. Sell cars for invoice less holdback, no processing fee. And you can sell warranties for cost and obtain financing for customers and pass it along at the buy rate!

You WILL pay doc fees. Period. Dealerships subtract freight to advertise a low price and add it back as per the disclaimers on the bottom of the websites. Get over it

If you’re that concerned about a dealership making a couple hundred bucks profit off of you you should probably reevaluate your salary
 
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jmrtsus

jmrtsus

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I got $4,500 off the sticker price I don't give a shit where it came from. The doc fee is $595 that's the only damn fee I paid. I have my own financing I didn't pay for any extra BS. I know exactly how much money I financed. The problem is you think everybody is stupid and you're the only one that gets it. I didn't get screwed over I got a great car at $18,300 nothing to be upset about. Oh no damn trade-in either.
I'm not going to get into an argument and die of a stroke, and be a bitter old man over $595. That's pocket change to me.

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Stop taking this personal....I am just stating facts not putting your deal down. There are many many people that do not know what you do. I am not trying to argue with you or imply you are not intelligent. You obviously are more savvy in buying cars than most. You did well on the fees and I am sure you are happy with your deal and I'm glad. Your time is more important than money to you right now. I understand that also, I was the same way when I was making 6 figures. I am not now and time is something I have lots of so keeping money is like earning money. As to financing that too is up to the individual. In our case it would be stupid to pay cash when we are getting about 10% return on our money so we looked for the lowest interest rate. I'm glad for you $595 is pocket change. We hope to leave our retirement funds principle to our kids so we live off the interest most of the time. $595 is almost a Mountune exhaust to me without touching our funds! The money saved beating two dealers to death for 9 days on my FiST paid for my MP-215 and OCC. I apologize if you feel I was putting you or your deal down I was trying to help others understand the numbers games the dealer plays.

Each person has a goal for a new car, to some all that matters is monthly payments, some it is the lowest cash price, some the lowest down payment and to some it is how quick can we close. All three will generate different numbers and total end prices. Again I'm sorry if I hurt your feeling that was not my intent, I am trying to help others that do not have your knowledge.

BTW, I am never "bitter" over a deal, I walk away from a crappy one and have since my 20's. I find car buying fun, I do it for friends and family and only once could not get them a better price. But then running a Prison was also fun to me. People are free to kill me, but I don't get intimidated nor deal well with fools and liars, I had 3200 of them 12 hours 5 days a week. Never fight on their battlefield (dealership) and never back down. If I remember correctly there are over 3700 Ford dealers, I have bought cars more out of state than local to get my price. The last 4 new Fords were not purchased in the states they were titled in.
 
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jmrtsus

jmrtsus

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You’re an absolute fucking moron. People like you are the reason dealerships come up with new fees because it’s sacrilege for a business to make a profit off you.

Great business model, open your own dealership. Sell cars for invoice less holdback, no processing fee. And you can sell warranties for cost and obtain financing for customers and pass it along at the buy rate!

You WILL pay doc fees. Period. Dealerships subtract freight to advertise a low price and add it back as per the disclaimers on the bottom of the websites. Get over it

If you’re that concerned about a dealership making a couple hundred bucks profit off of you you should probably reevaluate your salary
Just because you don't understand don't blow a fuse....and if you think a dealer sells a car for a "couple of hundred in profits" you are laughable. Feeling hurt that people may learn the truth? FTW the final price on our Mustang is 1400 over invoice plus holdback. Well over $2000. As a retired multiple business owner I'm quite sure I know more about how business works and overhead than you! I paid the salaries, taxes and bills and knew exactly what I need in returns or our sales to stay in business and make a profit. Don't try to BS me on how business works. It makes you nuts that people can actually see what a dealer pays for a car and that the excess fees are a joke and illegal in some states. Get over it, you will never convince anyone the dealers are going broke.

The owner of the Ford dealer with our car is worth per the internet: "Terry Taylor Net Worth. His net worth is at least US $500 million." That is his personal wealth not the business net worth. He also owns the most new car dealerships in the country per the web. Don't we all feel sorry for him? He did not make that selling cars for "a couple of hundred" profit did he? Silly salesmen trying to poor mouth a car dealership.....what a riot! The laughs never end.
 

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Stop taking this personal....I am just stating facts not putting your deal down. There are many many people that do not know what you do. I am not trying to argue with you or imply you are not intelligent. You obviously are more savvy in buying cars than most. You did well on the fees and I am sure you are happy with your deal and I'm glad. Your time is more important than money to you right now. I understand that also, I was the same way when I was making 6 figures. I am not now and time is something I have lots of so keeping money is like earning money. As to financing that too is up to the individual. In our case it would be stupid to pay cash when we are getting about 10% return on our money so we looked for the lowest interest rate. I'm glad for you $595 is pocket change. We hope to leave our retirement funds principle to our kids so we live off the interest most of the time. $595 is almost a Mountune exhaust to me without touching our funds! The money saved beating two dealers to death for 9 days on my FiST paid for my MP-215 and OCC. I apologize if you feel I was putting you or your deal down I was trying to help others understand the numbers games the dealer plays.

Each person has a goal for a new car, to some all that matters is monthly payments, some it is the lowest cash price, some the lowest down payment and to some it is how quick can we close. All three will generate different numbers and total end prices. Again I'm sorry if I hurt your feeling that was not my intent, I am trying to help others that do not have your knowledge.

BTW, I am never "bitter" over a deal, I walk away from a crappy one and have since my 20's. I find car buying fun, I do it for friends and family and only once could not get them a better price. But then running a Prison was also fun to me. People are free to kill me, but I don't get intimidated nor deal well with fools and liars, I had 3200 of them 12 hours 5 days a week. Never fight on their battlefield (dealership) and never back down. If I remember correctly there are over 3700 Ford dealers, I have bought cars more out of state than local to get my price. The last 4 new Fords were not purchased in the states they were titled in.
It's all good. No kids to leave money to. That is nice of you though, to many parents leave kids with a burden. I made a few mistakes buying my first car, and I learned a lot from it.

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#17
Just because you don't understand don't blow a fuse....and if you think a dealer sells a car for a "couple of hundred in profits" you are laughable. Feeling hurt that people may learn the truth? FTW the final price on our Mustang is 1400 over invoice plus holdback. Well over $2000. As a retired multiple business owner I'm quite sure I know more about how business works and overhead than you! I paid the salaries, taxes and bills and knew exactly what I need in returns or our sales to stay in business and make a profit. Don't try to BS me on how business works. It makes you nuts that people can actually see what a dealer pays for a car and that the excess fees are a joke and illegal in some states. Get over it, you will never convince anyone the dealers are going broke.

The owner of the Ford dealer with our car is worth per the internet: "Terry Taylor Net Worth. His net worth is at least US $500 million." That is his personal wealth not the business net worth. He also owns the most new car dealerships in the country per the web. Don't we all feel sorry for him? He did not make that selling cars for "a couple of hundred" profit did he? Silly salesmen trying to poor mouth a car dealership.....what a riot! The laughs never end.
You’re a nerd. And you have no idea what you’re talking about. Brb gotta go donuts in this Hellcat and the guys need some McDonald’s for lunch
 
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#18
jmrtsus,

I think the problem you have in your assessment and trying to pass on knowledge is that you’re focusing on the wrong thing. Like Blown said, you will pay the “fee” any way you slice it, it just depends on what you want to call it. When you look the whole deal, I don’t care what they call profit.

I just bought my 2019 FiST (#2, I had a 2014 as well) so I have recently gone through the whole rigmarole. Focusing on fees as the boogey man is just as bad as focusing on payment. You have to look at the whole deal (including trade if applicable) and be informed. Dealerships will make money, that is the whole purpose. To think you are going to “win” or “save money” at a dealer is the first mistake. Going in with that mentality is the wrong approach.

Sure some dealers games are worse than others, but if you are informed, willing to walk, and respectful I find that usually you will be treated the same way.
 
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#19
If anyone has questions on going about working a car deal and how to get the best results unlike the poor advice all over the Internet please feel free to PM me. If you email a dealership demanding invoices and making lowball offers you’re usually going to be ignored. Internet pricing on new cars means nothing, you need to read the fine print to see how the advertised price was calculated. And there’s always a disclaimer that says you may not qualify for the offers, pricing or financing. And that they’re not responsible for errors in their listings, to include pricing
 
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jmrtsus

jmrtsus

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Thread Starter #20
If anyone has questions on going about working a car deal and how to get the best results unlike the poor advice all over the Internet please feel free to PM me. If you email a dealership demanding invoices and making lowball offers you’re usually going to be ignored. Internet pricing on new cars means nothing, you need to read the fine print to see how the advertised price was calculated. And there’s always a disclaimer that says you may not qualify for the offers, pricing or financing. And that they’re not responsible for errors in their listings, to include pricing
You will always be ignored by dealers that only sell face to face like our local Ford dealers, all the larger dealers have internet departments. As to "demanding"an invoice my bank will not issue a check without one and I doubt others will either. Refusing an invoice is a game to prevent you from getting financing from others. My bank and others pre-qualify you but a check takes an invoice. Low ball offers are used to counter the "High ball" prices you get initially from a dealer. I don't look at ads and people should not either. You are correct the prices in your ads are totally meaningless. In my state we have truth in pricing laws;

If the price of a motor vehicle or recreational vehicle is advertised, the advertisement:
1. Shall include in the advertised price all costs and charges and any additional fees
payable by the purchaser of the vehicle advertised.
2. Shall separately describe any additional fee includable under (a)(1) of this
paragraph, and state clearly and conspicuously the amount thereof.

In simple terms what they print plus taxes is your total price. In some states ads have real numbers.......not that it means they have the car, it will be sold or was not on the truck!

I set a price I will pay and either get it or walk, about a 5% markup over actual invoice found on the internet NOT supplied by the dealer is what I shoot for and get, make take 2, 3 or more dealers but I accept each dealer has their own overhead. I don't haggle over fees, I don't even talk about them to open the door to haggling. Using multiple dealers you can get a fair price but must be armed with the data and be willing to walk away. Or just trust a dealer, the salesmen are professionals trained to make sure you don't spend a penny more than you need to get the car. LOL.

BTW, just heard on my wifes drive home the PBS radio station had a special program........on new car dealer phony "doc" fees! She was cracking up after getting her feet wet in this negotiation.
 

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