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Wilwood Forged Dynapro 6 Big Brake Front Brake Kit (what's on whoosh) vs Forged Dynalite Big Brake Front Brake Kit

LilPartyBox

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#21
Might be the similar situation with base S550 Mustang GT front 4-pistion calipers vs. 6-pistion calipers that comes with the Performance Pack. Six smaller positions allowed for a slightly smaller caliper vs. one with four larger ones.
That makes sense. But I got hype. The 4 is under 800!
 


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Thread Starter #22
That makes sense. But I got hype. The 4 is under 800!
lol, yeah that was another bonus but i figured with upgraded pads (BP10 to BP20) and the hat adjustment to 4x4.25 we weren't going to be saving too much over the 6 piston. i'll update if i ever get official word from Wilwood.
 


Dpro

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#23
That makes sense. But I got hype. The 4 is under 800!
Ya I ws looking at the 4 piston radial mount ones. All this talk about Wilwood and neither the 6 piston on Whoosh’s site nor the 4 piston you guys have been discussing are radial mount.
Heh even the Whoosh BBK is a radial mount. Radial mount is just superior for a lot of applications and the EBC and most of the better BBK kits for our cars are Radial mount which Wilwood does make! There is no reason one could not adapt a Radial mount Wilwood to our cars. Wilwood even talks about working with Customers for their application on their site!
 


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#24
okay, there seems to be some confusion here so i'm going to be as clear as I can be so everyone's on the same page:

1) the whole point of this thread was me asking if someone could explain the wheel clearance diagrams. specifically the difference in caliper width between the Wilwood 140-11899 caliper and the 140-6163 caliper. *BOTH ARE FRONT DISC BIG BRAKE KITS FOR ABS SYSTEMS*

2) no one, not a single person, gave me an explanation of the wheel clearance diagrams (which is fine; still learned some stuff so thank you)

3) i *never* mentioned anything about a rear brake kit. Maybe someone else did in passing, but that's not the focus here.

4) i simply want to know if the posted wheel clearance diagrams definitively state that the 140-6163 caliper (the 4 piston) actually sticks out farther from the wheel mount surface than the 140-11899 caliper (the 6 piston)
Regarding the brake clearance diagrams, the idea is that you need ~3mm clearance to caliper and rotor to the drum and spokes if your wheel. They’ve provided a simplified shape for reference

That one looks to be to scale, so you should be able to print it out, adjust the print scaling until the 2.5” center registration matches a ruler. Ideally, verify the other dimensions.

Then, cut it out, remove your wheel and place it against the hub mating surface and you should be able to tell if the kit will fit or not.

As you’ve noticed, the Dynalite caliper is narrower (and less stiff), it’s just that Wilwood hasn’t bothered to engineer and market a kit with a bracket for it.

As to why they don’t offer a cheaper 4-pot kit, you could speculate that since it was designed before the ST, and there were simple SVT upgrade options for the base Fiesta, they probably decided that the type of clients who would spring for a Wilwood kit were likely more “serious” and the 6-pot caliper would sweeten the deal.

As for working with customers, Wilwood is a small company with a large customer base. They’ll certainly design you a custom kit, but the engineering fee and one-off production is going to cost somewhat more than a package BBK - it’s usually meant for customers with race cars that have a real budget.

They probably haven’t decided it’s worth it to put the design effort in for designing yet another kit when they have one available
already or just haven’t gotten around to it, as there are new applications much much larger potential customer bases that their design team are certainly going to pursue first, because at the end of the day they have to pay their people and budget engineering hours for a project.
 


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Dpro

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#25
Regarding the brake clearance diagrams, the idea is that you need ~3mm clearance to caliper and rotor to the drum and spokes if your wheel. They’ve provided a simplified shape for reference

That one looks to be to scale, so you should be able to print it out, adjust the print scaling until the 2.5” center registration matches a ruler. Ideally, verify the other dimensions.

Then, cut it out, remove your wheel and place it against the hub mating surface and you should be able to tell if the kit will fit or not.

As you’ve noticed, the Dynalite caliper is narrower (and less stiff), it’s just that Wilwood hasn’t bothered to engineer and market a kit with a bracket for it.

As to why they don’t offer a cheaper 4-pot kit, you could speculate that since it was designed before the ST, and there were simple SVT upgrade options for the base Fiesta, they probably decided that the type of clients who would spring for a Wilwood kit were likely more “serious” and the 6-pot caliper would sweeten the deal.

As for working with customers, Wilwood is a small company with a large customer base. They’ll certainly design you a custom kit, but the engineering fee and one-off production is going to cost somewhat more than a package BBK - it’s usually meant for customers with race cars that have a real budget.

They probably haven’t decided it’s worth it to put the design effort in for designing yet another kit when they have one available
already or just haven’t gotten around to it, as there are new applications much much larger potential customer bases that their design team are certainly going to pursue first, because at the end of the day they have to pay their people and budget engineering hours for a project.
The difference in weight between the Dynalite and Dynapro‘s is not a lot.
The Dynapro’s unloaded are 3.4 pounds vs the Dynalite unloaded being 3.2 so 2 tenths of pound difference.

Now….For comparison and a baseline to work off, the Whoosh kit with hardware pads and discs comes out to 20.3 pounds per corner and factory with EBC rotors is 27.8. This is actually weighed out by our own D-Resonant.

If you call up Wilwood and have the numbers you need to make them work the homework is done the only thing you would be asking them to fabricate is a radial bracket that works with our cars. Not only that but if you have the numbers call them and tell them they can point you to the exact Caliper that can be adapted. Since they already sell hats for our cars discs are not that big of a deal . They aalso sell discs that are the right width as well. So all you are concentrating on is diameter choice and Matching the radial mounting bracket accordingly to the disc diameter.

Plus if they are not willing to machine a radial bracket thats easily done( at least here in SoCal at the numerous small CNC aerospace shops you just need to give them dimensions . Oh and in fact if your enterprising you would have them do a run to retail as as soon as FiST owners saw this option they would get interested and most likely buy.

So no it’s as complicated as you think and we’ll ya people have been doing this very thing to adapt calipers to there cars for ages.
 


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#26
The difference in weight between the Dynalite and Dynapro‘s is not a lot.
The Dynapro’s unloaded are 3.4 pounds vs the Dynalite unloaded being 3.2 so 2 tenths of pound difference.

Now….For comparison and a baseline to work off, the Whoosh kit with hardware pads and discs comes out to 20.3 pounds per corner and factory with EBC rotors is 27.8. This is actually weighed out by our own D-Resonant.

If you call up Wilwood and have the numbers you need to make them work the homework is done the only thing you would be asking them to fabricate is a radial bracket that works with our cars. Not only that but if you have the numbers call them and tell them they can point you to the exact Caliper that can be adapted. Since they already sell hats for our cars discs are not that big of a deal . They aalso sell discs that are the right width as well. So all you are concentrating on is diameter choice and Matching the radial mounting bracket accordingly to the disc diameter.

Plus if they are not willing to machine a radial bracket thats easily done( at least here in SoCal at the numerous small CNC aerospace shops you just need to give them dimensions . Oh and in fact if your enterprising you would have them do a run to retail as as soon as FiST owners saw this option they would get interested and most likely buy.

So no it’s as complicated as you think and we’ll ya people have been doing this very thing to adapt calipers to there cars for ages.
Not suggesting it’s that complicated. The main difference between dynalite and dynapro is clearance, stiffness and cost.

I was actually just having a private discussion about machining my own brackets for a DIY kit using an an inexpensive caliper (maybe a Wilwood or reman 300ZX 26mm caliper, which is cheaply available) to work with the SVT rotors and maybe doing some sort of group buy, but in the end it comes down to cost and alternatives. The SVT swap with stock, SVT or cheap iron caliper seems like a slam dunk, which prices out at less than $500 with pads. But once you add an aftermarket or other 4-pot caliper into the mix, it starts to look like $700-900 (group buy brackets, and purchase your own pads, rotors and caliper). Maybe less if you go cheaper on rotors and pads.

At that price point is it worth it when alternatives like the Whoosh kit are already available for $1000-1100 and are already proven out and come with customer support?
 


Dpro

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#27
Not suggesting it’s that complicated. The main difference between dynalite and dynapro is clearance, stiffness and cost.

I was actually just having a private discussion about machining my own brackets for a DIY kit using an an inexpensive caliper (maybe a Wilwood or reman 300ZX 26mm caliper, which is cheaply available) to work with the SVT rotors and maybe doing some sort of group buy, but in the end it comes down to cost and alternatives. The SVT swap with stock, SVT or cheap iron caliper seems like a slam dunk, which prices out at less than $500 with pads. But once you add an aftermarket or other 4-pot caliper into the mix, it starts to look like $700-900 (group buy brackets, and purchase your own pads, rotors and caliper). Maybe less if you go cheaper on rotors and pads.

At that price point is it worth it when alternatives like the Whoosh kit are already available for $1000-1100 and are already proven out and come with customer support?
If you go the 26mm 300z route make sure they are Aluminum which are actually rare now, As 240sx guys used to snatch them up for $350-400 a set back in the day. Oh and the reman guy.s could not get enough of them to do remans as Nissan swapped them out for steel calipers because z32(300zx) owner were warping rotors like mad. They initially thought it was because of the Aluminum Calipers but actually it was because Z32’s were 3700lb cars. That is a lot of weight to stop with those Calipers.
R32 GTS, GTR,R33 GtST and GTR Skyline Calipers were actually larger than 300zx Calipers and were aluminum, and boy did they work great I ram a set on one of my 240sx’s.

Ask me how I know? Ya I use to sell all of the above setups on Zilvia on a regular basis. Most of the cheap remans if not all you’re talking about are the steel ones and ya they are heavy lol. I would not put them on my FiST.

Willwood blanks for the hats are not expensive . Initially a Wilwood set with pads would be about $700-800 for Caliper $100 for pads $120 a piece for rotors mounting bracket price could vary from as little as $150-250 depending on how many were made and ya I do have experience with this kind of stuff. That puts you around $1200-1300 for a full set that would be light and after that replacement rotors are a couple of hundred. It’s really not as bad as you’re making it out to be as most other big brake kits are a lot more expensive.

Plus if a vendor saw a market for the Calipers It’s quite possible the retail price on the calipers could drop considering how much Whoosh sells the Dynalite 6 piston non radials with rotors and pads for!
Of course with the Radial it’s worth extra money for it. I am sorry but non radial calipers are just not ideal for a BBK upgrade IMO .


There is also the question of the design of the Calipers in the Whoosh kits having changed . Some may be ok with others may not. I am not passing judgement here just pointing out even you have seen in the other threads.

I for now am happy with my Whoosh kit for the price I got it for it can’t be beat . Though for the price I got it for when the rotors are done I may opt to go a different route. YMMV
 


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Thread Starter #28
Ya I ws looking at the 4 piston radial mount ones. All this talk about Wilwood and neither the 6 piston on Whoosh’s site nor the 4 piston you guys have been discussing are radial mount.
Heh even the Whoosh BBK is a radial mount. Radial mount is just superior for a lot of applications and the EBC and most of the better BBK kits for our cars are Radial mount which Wilwood does make! There is no reason one could not adapt a Radial mount Wilwood to our cars. Wilwood even talks about working with Customers for their application on their site!
guessing you're referring to these 4 pistons?


1674653992054.png

i didn't even think about radial vs lug mounted. this whole rabbit hole started with just trying to find a BBK that would fit under the factory wheel without spacers. i know people run spacers all the time but i just don't want to do that. i'd rather just deal with all the brake dust from the OEM brake kit and just accept that brake fade then go spacers on my wheels. my fifteen52s have 45ET on a 7.5" width so that will clear a wilwood kit but not much else. (at least i think that's true).

now i'm thinking "radial only if i go BBK"; always learning here.
 


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#29
I know people run spacers all the time but I just don't want to do that. I'd rather just deal with all the brake dust from the OEM brake kit and just accept that brake fade then go spacers on my wheels.
TOTALLY with you on this point, but, you should NOT be experiencing ANY 'brake fade' on the street with any decent pads, rotors, and fluid, at all.

Now if you eventually plan on taking it to the NJMP courses, Pocono, Summit Point, etc., that's another story altogether.

For the street, the spacers probably have even less negative effect/potential for harm than on the track, but yeah, I would also not ever want them even on my street driven only FiST, certainly not just to have the 'looks/bragging rights' of a fixed caliper BBK system.
 


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TOTALLY with you on this point, but, you should NOT be experiencing ANY 'brake fade' on the street with any decent pads, rotors, and fluid, at all.

Now if you eventually plan on taking it to the NJMP courses, Pocono, Summit Point, etc., that's another story altogether.

For the street, the spacers probably have even less negative effect/potential for harm than on the track, but yeah, I would also not ever want them even on my street driven only FiST, certainly not just to have the 'looks/bragging rights' of a fixed caliper BBK system.
for sure @M-Sport fan with the speeds i drive up here in the Northeast, reaction time will be the only factor in whether i lose control/hit something. a BBK will do little if anything as maybe i'm pushing the car 6/10 if that.

i just keep telling myself that one day when i have all the upgrades i want i'm going to step foot on a track or an autoX event. then i'll either have the braking to hoon all day or for a few laps depending. one day...
 


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#31
Fully agree with you @M-Sport fan and @esp_martin , I do NOT want to run spacers. My current thought (for a ways down the road when a BBK is in the finances) are these...... It would mean swapping wheels which I really didnt want to do since I like my Rota Titans, but I like these new ones and it would give the clearance.

https://pumaspeed.co.uk/product-SALE-TrackLite-Alloy-Wheels-17x75J-4x108-ET38-Set-of-4_17160.jsp

https://pumaspeed.co.uk/product-Pumaspeed-Racing-Fiesta-ST180-4-Pot-330mm-Brake-Kit_18019.jsp
 


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#32
^^^Even though I am not a big fan of the 'paired spoke' type wheels, those look great in their gold color, and it's really hard to beat that price, even with international shipping added on. [twothumb]

Pumaspeed's calipers (and maybe rotors/hats??) are made by AP Racing?
 


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#33
^^^Even though I am not a big fan of the 'paired spoke' type wheels, those look great in their gold color, and it's really hard to beat that price, even with international shipping added on. [twothumb]

Pumaspeed's calipers (and maybe rotors/hats??) are made by AP Racing?
I have broad tastes on wheel design, paired spoke is fine with me, it's more where the spokes meet the edge of the rim. I prefer a recessed look with a lip even. The Titans spokes essentially meet the edge of the rim, its only in between spokes that there's a lip, but the Pumaspeed wheels are even more pronounced there, but overall look good. And of course, recessed spokes are the problem when it comes to large brake caliper clearance. And yeah, not bad on price even with the shipping. The weight is more than the Titan's but still lighter than factory.

I'm not sure on who the brake manufacturer is. As we've seen, company's and those rebrands like to keep that info under wraps.
 


Dpro

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#34
I have broad tastes on wheel design, paired spoke is fine with me, it's more where the spokes meet the edge of the rim. I prefer a recessed look with a lip even. The Titans spokes essentially meet the edge of the rim, its only in between spokes that there's a lip, but the Pumaspeed wheels are even more pronounced there, but overall look good. And of course, recessed spokes are the problem when it comes to large brake caliper clearance. And yeah, not bad on price even with the shipping. The weight is more than the Titan's but still lighter than factory.

I'm not sure on who the brake manufacturer is. As we've seen, company's and those rebrands like to keep that info under wraps.
Ya those Pumaspeed BBK’s like strangely familiar. Cough cough TEI!:ROFLMAO:

A few notes here ideally in looking for a 4 piston Caliper what would be nice is to match the piston area of the Original Whoosh kit and I only mention this because they are actually really well balanced bias wise to the stock brake system. I actually like mine a lot because of that . They have more stopping power, take off 7lbs a corner of unsprung weight and pedal feel and reaction is great.
The
 


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#35
Ya those Pumaspeed BBK’s like strangely familiar. Cough cough TEI!:ROFLMAO:

A few notes here ideally in looking for a 4 piston Caliper what would be nice is to match the piston area of the Original Whoosh kit and I only mention this because they are actually really well balanced bias wise to the stock brake system. I actually like mine a lot because of that . They have more stopping power, take off 7lbs a corner of unsprung weight and pedal feel and reaction is great.
The
So looking on Wilwood’s site about the 6-pot dynapro caliper, I noticed this tidbit:

“ Dynapro Six Lug Mount

The DP6 marks a noteworthy step in the evolution of the DynaPro caliper series. DP6 calipers offer the performance advantages of a larger pad and a six piston differential bore configuration, with complete bolt-on interchange ability to the four piston 5.25" lug mount DynaPro models, and the long standing Dynalite caliper series.

I saw references in other discussions (I think on a Miata forum) mentioning that you could call Wilwood to substitute calipers (dynalite vs dynapro) in their packages, so assuming they pick up, you might well be able to buy the Fiesta ST kit with any compatible caliper, not just the expensive 6-pot. Either that or they might explain why they made up the package that way.
 


LilPartyBox

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#36
So looking on Wilwood’s site about the 6-pot dynapro caliper, I noticed this tidbit:

“ Dynapro Six Lug Mount

The DP6 marks a noteworthy step in the evolution of the DynaPro caliper series. DP6 calipers offer the performance advantages of a larger pad and a six piston differential bore configuration, with complete bolt-on interchange ability to the four piston 5.25" lug mount DynaPro models, and the long standing Dynalite caliper series.

I saw references in other discussions (I think on a Miata forum) mentioning that you could call Wilwood to substitute calipers (dynalite vs dynapro) in their packages, so assuming they pick up, you might well be able to buy the Fiesta ST kit with any compatible caliper, not just the expensive 6-pot. Either that or they might explain why they made up the package that way.
To that end, I spent a few hours on their website. I'm putting together a spreadsheet that I hope can help us find an alternative radial mount caliper. I also found the alternative slotted only rotor that would fit us. As I find time I'll continue to add to it. You guys feel free to as well.

Eventually, i would like to reach out to Wilwood with the findings/guesses. The only criteria I'm using to GUESS if a caliper works is by filtering on our kit's rotor width (.81") and rotor size (12.19"). There's a shit ton of options. I've noticed that some calipers have specs sheets that may also help determine if a caliper is compatible. I included the lug type calipers from our kit and the other lug type @esp_martin posted. Then i added a few radial types that i hope would work. Oh and i found the piston seals for each caliper and listed the part # as well. link below...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xwSNn1ZTSGuTCKH9dyVBOj04Vn5VYHud5V08_5APWGI/edit?usp=sharing
 


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#37
To that end, I spent a few hours on their website. I'm putting together a spreadsheet that I hope can help us find an alternative radial mount caliper. I also found the alternative slotted only rotor that would fit us. As I find time I'll continue to add to it. You guys feel free to as well.

Eventually, i would like to reach out to Wilwood with the findings/guesses. The only criteria I'm using to GUESS if a caliper works is by filtering on our kit's rotor width (.81") and rotor size (12.19"). There's a shit ton of options. I've noticed that some calipers have specs sheets that may also help determine if a caliper is compatible. I included the lug type calipers from our kit and the other lug type @esp_martin posted. Then i added a few radial types that i hope would work. Oh and i found the piston seals for each caliper and listed the part # as well. link below...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xwSNn1ZTSGuTCKH9dyVBOj04Vn5VYHud5V08_5APWGI/edit?usp=sharing
It sounds like pretty much any lug mount caliper they make can work if it clears the spokes and is compatible with the rotor diameter.

A radial caliper would require a completely different bracket though, so there would be some custom work involved, either DIY or asking Wilwood to do the design work
 


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Thread Starter #38
It sounds like pretty much any lug mount caliper they make can work if it clears the spokes and is compatible with the rotor diameter.

A radial caliper would require a completely different bracket though, so there would be some custom work involved, either DIY or asking Wilwood to do the design work
yeah i finally understand why Ron thought I was trying to assemble a F/R brake kit since Wilwood uses the 4piston lug mounted caliper on some of their high performance rear brake kit assemblies (those must be some heavy performance cars). i still think the dynapro 4piston lug mount caliper in the 5.25" mount center is a great alternative to the 6piston on the idea alone it doesn't increase the front braking to such a degree the back end gets squirrely (i've read that if you go BBK up front you might as well do the SVT conversion in back due to how incredibly uneven the stopping power gets up front compared to the back but that's pretty anecdotal).

but for those curious (like me) there's a pretty significant discount for the 6 piston lug mounted wilwood BBK on whoosh. putting the three main components together on summit racing comes out the same price and that's before the mounting bracket and other necessary mounting accessories
edit: i understand if Wilwood was cool with swapping out the DP6 in the existing kit for the requested 4piston Dynapro the hope would be they would pass that caliper savings on to us
1674765811844.png
 


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Dpro

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#39
Well a question comes to mind if you look at the kit both Ron and Wilwood sell for our car using the 6 pot lug style caliper you will see it comes with lug adapter plate to bolt into our car it is not a direct mount. Now given that you would literally have to ask Wilwood to A sell their kit with. different Caliper than the Dynalite 6 pot lug version or ask them to sell that bracket separately.
If they will not sell that either way we are then back at square having to make a bracket which brings us right back to going Radial and designing a bracket. Again this is not rocket science and getting someone to CNC a bracket out of Aluminum is not that expensive and quite a bit cheaper if you do a run.
I personally would not even go down the whole road making a bracket if needed if was not going to be for a Radial mount Caliper . FWIW
 


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#40
yeah i finally understand why Ron thought I was trying to assemble a F/R brake kit since Wilwood uses the 4piston lug mounted caliper on some of their high performance rear brake kit assemblies (those must be some heavy performance cars). i still think the dynapro 4piston lug mount caliper in the 5.25" mount center is a great alternative to the 6piston on the idea alone it doesn't increase the front braking to such a degree the back end gets squirrely (i've read that if you go BBK up front you might as well do the SVT conversion in back due to how incredibly uneven the stopping power gets up front compared to the back but that's pretty anecdotal).

but for those curious (like me) there's a pretty significant discount for the 6 piston lug mounted wilwood BBK on whoosh. putting the three main components together on summit racing comes out the same price and that's before the mounting bracket and other necessary mounting accessories
edit: i understand if Wilwood was cool with swapping out the DP6 in the existing kit for the requested 4piston Dynapro the hope would be they would pass that caliper savings on to us
View attachment 53704
The brake balance you’re talking about is actually not related to the number of pistons at all, but rather the piston area. Wilwood has 4 pot calipers with more total piston area than some of their 6 pots. The advantage a 6-pot caliper (which usually has smaller pistons) gives you is that the pad can be longer, which allows larger area, increasing the wear life. Brake balance and “grab” is entirely a function of piston area and the resulting force applied to the rotor. Swapping in a 4 or 6 pot doesn’t inherently change the balance - you can have a single pot floater with a large piston that does the same job.
 




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