Dust shield removal downside?

[CANADAFIST]

Hi guys,

I'm on a mission to reduce brake fade, and it seems that removing the dust shield is a big part of it (especially with the deflectors). I'd like to know if there is any real downside to this? If Ford bothered to put a dust shield there, I imagine it has a purpose. If it's just that I'll have more brake dust, I don't care. If it's more than that then...

 

[jeffreylyon]

They're more to prevent the brakes from getting salt and crap packed into them than anything else. If you winter your FiST then it might not be a bad idea to keep them on. Check out cm-buildz's (sp?) brake cooling shields to add directed cooling and keeping winter off the back of your brakes.

I don't winter my FiST and took them off within the first week of ownership.

 

[TyphoonFiST]

Boomba also makes Air deflectors that go on the lower control arms! Not another bad option if you don't want all that Ducting.

 

[green_henry]

They're more to prevent the brakes from getting salt and crap packed into them than anything else. If you winter your FiST then it might not be a bad idea to keep them on. Check out cm-buildz's (sp?) brake cooling shields to add directed cooling and keeping winter off the back of your brakes.

I don't winter my FiST and took them off within the first week of ownership.

I've been considering getting the Boomba deflectors. Are your shocks, springs et al getting coated with brake dust with the dust shields removed?

 

[jeffreylyon]

I've been considering getting the Boomba deflectors. Are your shocks, springs et al getting coated with brake dust with the dust shields removed?

I have the Boomba deflectors, the Wilwood BBK and a late brake habit on track days. The wheels get loaded with dust but the suspension bits don't.

 

[maestromaestro]

Hi guys,

I'm on a mission to reduce brake fade, and it seems that removing the dust shield is a big part of it (especially with the deflectors). I'd like to know if there is any real downside to this? If Ford bothered to put a dust shield there, I imagine it has a purpose. If it's just that I'll have more brake dust, I don't care. If it's more than that then...

Well, Ford also put an engine cover in your car. Dust shields are not a factor in brake fade. If you experience that, the temp is high enough, and removing those won’t make much difference. Bigger rotors and better pads are needed.

 

[CANADAFIST]

The car is my daily, and I drive it all winter.

I was going down the path of boomba deflectors, but they suggest removing the dust shields to get the cooling results that the deflectors were designed for.

I don't understand why removing the dust shield would make the inside of the rotor more beaten up than the outside...

 

[jeffreylyon]

Let's back up a little: you want to reduce brake fade. Neither removing the dust covers or the Boomba deflectors is going to help a lot. What fluid and pads are you using? When do you experience fade?

 

[CANADAFIST]

I have another thread on this, but let me give you the Cole's notes.

This is my dd, so I have no tolerance for a loud setup. It's all stock. Took it to the track and the brakes melted by lap 3. Never cooled back down enough to work properly. Traction control completely off. I'm not going to mod this car muhh. I just want it to stop consistently.

From my reading and others' suggestions, heat is the main issue. The best option is to have an aggressive pad setup for the track, and swap over. I'm not willing to do this. Next best option is to get as much cooling as possible. Basically, every bolt-on upgrade I can find, short of a bbk. So, I'm upgrading rotors, getting better fluid. Stainless lines. Going with stock pads, because short of a loud, track pad, they're actually really good.

The deflectors sound like they cool things down Ok, but they need the dust shield to be removed to work.

At this point, I'm not sure if it's worth it or not. If it just means my rotors will get chewed a little more through winter, I'm ok with that. If my rotors are going to get screwed, and brake dust will go everywhere and cause issues, then I won't pursue this option.

That's the background to me making this post.

 

[Erick_V]

I'm having a hard time understanding why you wouldn't want to swap pads and rotors at the track, it's not like these brakes are hard to work on. To remove the dust shields you have to remove the rotor, which means removing the caliper, pads and bracket. You could have a rotor/pad setup for the track and then swap back to your stock setup. This is a way better option IMO. You have the OEM feel of brakes on the street and have a good rotor and pad setup for the track without making any compromises. If you're willing to go through swapping and bleeding the brakes with new fluid why the fuss over swapping parts?

 

[CANADAFIST]

I'm having a hard time understanding why you wouldn't want to swap pads and rotors at the track, it's not like these brakes are hard to work on. To remove the dust shields you have to remove the rotor, which means removing the caliper, pads and bracket. You could have a rotor/pad setup for the track and then swap back to your stock setup. This is a way better option IMO. You have the OEM feel of brakes on the street and have a good rotor and pad setup for the track without making any compromises. If you're willing to go through swapping and bleeding the brakes with new fluid why the fuss over swapping parts?

It just rakes more time than I have. I'm not swapping fluid everytime. I'm just putting in better fluid and leaving it.

I don't have an hour before and after every track day to swap pads. I know how it works, and I know it's easy. But it's going to take more time than I'm willing to give. Maybe that sounds silly, but that's how it goes.

 

[maestromaestro]

It just rakes more time than I have. I'm not swapping fluid everytime. I'm just putting in better fluid and leaving it.

I don't have an hour before and after every track day to swap pads. I know how it works, and I know it's easy. But it's going to take more time than I'm willing to give. Maybe that sounds silly, but that's how it goes.

Well, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. With a stock set up, you are assured of overheating. Dust shield on or off won’t make a difference. Same with the deflectors. Stainless lines are also not essential.

High wet boiling temperature fluid is a good start. Heavier rotor will help, with an understanding that you are increasing the unsprung mass.

Pads are critical. Not all track pads squeal, and you can use quieting goop to deal with that. I recommend Carbotech XP8 as a dual duty pad that you can keep on. Not cheap though - but you say you’re short for time, and time IS money, so you’ll have pay for not spending an hour swapping pads out.

 

[jeffreylyon]

To chase down a heat problem you have 3 tools: heat tolerance, thermal mass, and heat rejection. Heat tolerance is how well the entire braking system works as the operating temperature rises. You'd address this with fluid and pads. Thermal mass effects how quickly the operating temperature rises as you put energy into it (use the brakes). You'd increase thermal mass with larger rotors and calipers. Heat rejection is how effectively you can cool the brakes. You'd increase this with increased cooling air flow and ducting air into the rotor and onto the calipers.

Before doing anything else I'd replace the stock brake fluid with something more track-worthy. My son runs EBC Yellow Stuff pads on his street-FiST and is happy with them over the stock pads. These modifications will raise the heat tolerance of your brakes. That may be enough for occasional track use.

While increasing thermal mass increases the amount of track time until your brakes fade and you back off it's not a good solution for a track car. Track cars are driven for extended periods (long than an A/C run) so the only thing you should be running out of is gas, not thermal capacity. Moreover, you might find rotors that are 10% heavier than stock (I don't think you will) and that isn't going to give you much more track time.

Heat rejection is the ticket for extended hard running. Deflectors and removing dust shields aren't going to fix a big heat issues. Real ducting with functional backing plates is the universal solution, but isn't very street friendly. Slotted or dimpled rotors help out pads that are at the limit of their operating range but really don't do too much for actual heat rejection.

Something to consider is that even with as many driver's aids turned off as we can, our cars still have brake vectoring. If you're cooking your brakes after you've replaced the useless-for-the-track stock fluid I'd try adjusting your corner speed. Our cars will try hard to make you feel like a super hero when, in fact, you're pushing through a corner. Someone posted a video where he was plowing through practically every corner and, instead of pushing off the track and killing him, his poor FiST did everything it could to try stay on line by braking the inside wheel hard.

Brake lines won't do anything to address a heat issue. Also, if you are really cooking your brakes to the point that you're staring to burn the powder coat off (you won't be doing this with stock fluid), be aware that the dust shields will protect the ball joints.

 

[CANADAFIST]

Good points. I've heard really good thing about carbotevh xp8s on track, but mixed reviews on the noise,for daily driving.

 

[CANADAFIST]

To chase down a heat problem you have 3 tools: heat tolerance, thermal mass, and heat rejection. Heat tolerance is how well the entire braking system works as the operating temperature rises. You'd address this with fluid and pads. Thermal mass effects how quickly the operating temperature rises as you put energy into it (use the brakes). You'd increase thermal mass with larger rotors and calipers. Heat rejection is how effectively you can cool the brakes. You'd increase this with increased cooling air flow and ducting air into the rotor and onto the calipers.

Before doing anything else I'd replace the stock brake fluid with something more track-worthy. My son runs EBC Yellow Stuff pads on his street-FiST and is happy with them over the stock pads. These modifications will raise the heat tolerance of your brakes. That may be enough for occasional track use.

While increasing thermal mass increases the amount of track time until your brakes fade and you back off it's not a good solution for a track car. Track cars are driven for extended periods (long than an A/C run) so the only thing you should be running out of is gas, not thermal capacity. Moreover, you might find rotors that are 10% heavier than stock (I don't think you will) and that isn't going to give you much more track time.

Heat rejection is the ticket for extended hard running. Deflectors and removing dust shields aren't going to fix a big heat issues. Real ducting with functional backing plates is the universal solution, but isn't very street friendly. Slotted or dimpled rotors help out pads that are at the limit of their operating range but really don't do too much for actual heat rejection.

Something to consider is that even with as many driver's aids turned off as we can, our cars still have brake vectoring. If you're cooking your brakes after you've replaced the useless-for-the-track stock fluid I'd try adjusting your corner speed. Our cars will try hard to make you feel like a super hero when, in fact, you're pushing through a corner. Someone posted a video where he was plowing through practically every corner and, instead of pushing off the track and killing him, his poor FiST did everything it could to try stay on line by braking the inside wheel hard.

Brake lines won't do anything to address a heat issue. Also, if you are really cooking your brakes to the point that you're staring to burn the powder coat off (you won't be doing this with stock fluid), be aware that the dust shields will protect the ball joints.

I didn't know that about brake vectoring. Some really excellent points there. Thanks.

 

[Erick_V]

Good points. I've heard really good thing about carbotevh xp8s on track, but mixed reviews on the noise,for daily driving.

You will not find a happy medium for both street and track, you're going to be giving something up on either one of those ends. Unless you go BBK and ducting you will run into the same issues over and over again. You want results that are unattainable without modding. If it was as simple as a pad and fluid change you would have gotten your answer already.

The best you'll be able to get out of a stock caliper setup would be the Gold Coast Auto kit (323mm front, 302mm rear rotors), good pads (xp8, etc), fluid and ducting

 

[CANADAFIST]

Fair point. I was hoping that I could find a brake setup that was good on the street, and good enough to get 6 or 7 hot laps on low speed tracks. It sounds like that's not possible.

I'll see what it feels like with better rotors, fluid, etc. If it's still a disaster, maybe I'll get another set of pads. Or if not, I'll just track the other car.

 

[jeffreylyon]

I'll see what it feels like with better rotors, fluid, etc. If it's still a disaster, maybe I'll get another set of pads. Or if not, I'll just track the other car.

I don't think that rotors will do much. Definitely change the fluid and see where that gets you.

 

[maestromaestro]

To piggy back to Jeff’s comments, driving style and driver skill is an important variable. Whereas FiSTs aren’t what I’d call a “momentum” car like a Miata, you can take a page from that “owner’s manual”. That is, drive near the limit and use the brakes sparingly. It is much easier said than done, and most drivers subscribe to the other school of “if you’re not on the gas, you’re on the brakes”, that is - no coasting.

So, to reiterate - fluid, brake pads, and no hamFiSTIng.

 

[CANADAFIST]

Thanks guys. I'll enquire about the xp8s. I had xp10s on my last car for track days, and they were excellent. But, way too loud for daily.

Again, I'm not looking for a perfect setup, just something that I can get away with for a half dozen laps.

Anyways, it sounds like dust shield removal and deflectors don't make a difference, so I'll leave them.