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So what are the pluses and minuses of using an average for tq/hp dyno charts?

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#1
So this idea came from another conversation the other day where some were discussing the v dyno numbers, i think in more than one thread actually. The accepted idea, seemingly, is that max hp doesn't necessarily mean better. I not only agree but i would go one further, it might be inferior to a better average if you are after overall acceleration. So just to be clear, im not asking if higher peak whp is actually better than a flatter curve with a higher average (although im open to that discussion too), im more asking why would or wouldn't it be better to discuss hp/tq figures with an average rather than just peak?

It just seems a better measure of the overall performance. The one way i could see knowing peak power is priority is when you are tracking your top end for final gear top speeds. If nothing else perhaps look at both peak and an average. So what do you think, would it be an advantage to keep track of average hp/tq, and why do people not do it?
Im pretty sure that in time, i will start getting dyno runs every so often and i think figuring averages would give me a better measure of performance when comparing mod/tune changes.

Thoughts?
 


Se7eN

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#3
Dyno runs are an expense that some people are not willing to make that often. Would be the answer as to why not one does frequent runs to get a number.

Also there is issue to this average hp/tq as it all depends on what RPM to step on it, how fast you spool, etc. It would not be a consistent reading. Also power under the curve can be seen with just a dyno graph.
 


jeffreylyon

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#5
Average torque (average HP over a rev range makes little sense as HP is directly proportional to rev) doesn’t describe the torque curve, which is at least as important as peak or mean torque.
 


OP
TalkToTheFiST
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Thread Starter #7
Also, saying "i have 350whp" tends to sound better than "i have 280 average hp"
It does sound better lol but if you are just, say, gauging your gains from an old tune to a new one + FMIC install, something like that, you might not go around quoting the actual averages to other people but you could find how much it improved from the tuning changes. Maybe a new tune only increased the peak hp/tq by 2 but the average bumped up by 12 over whatever range you find most used, that seems like it would be useful to know and would probably concur with a butt dyno.

Im just looking at it from the perspective of a green tuner and hearing many people discount outright peak power numbers. It makes sense as that's not all that matters but if you are going to discount those numbers, what numbers are we going by? Im just interested in this idea and what people here think about it.

Somebody recently told me a v dyno isn't necessarily accurate from a real numbers POV bc they aren't exactly accurate vs a real dyno, but they will be consistent within MY CAR, so it can be used to measure changes from mods and such. Since we can get v dyno numbers from our APs, even that should hold some value over the peak numbers are APs give.
 


Clint Beastwood

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#8
It does sound better lol but if you are just, say, gauging your gains from an old tune to a new one + FMIC install, something like that, you might not go around quoting the actual averages to other people but you could find how much it improved from the tuning changes. Maybe a new tune only increased the peak hp/tq by 2 but the average bumped up by 12 over whatever range you find most used, that seems like it would be useful to know and would probably concur with a butt dyno.

Im just looking at it from the perspective of a green tuner and hearing many people discount outright peak power numbers. It makes sense as that's not all that matters but if you are going to discount those numbers, what numbers are we going by? Im just interested in this idea and what people here think about it.

Somebody recently told me a v dyno isn't necessarily accurate from a real numbers POV bc they aren't exactly accurate vs a real dyno, but they will be consistent within MY CAR, so it can be used to measure changes from mods and such. Since we can get v dyno numbers from our APs, even that should hold some value over the peak numbers are APs give.
Just spend some time researching how to read a dyno graph. Once you get it, you'll see the benefit of an a/b comparison. Peak HP numbers is bench racing, dyno charts are proof, timeslips are big dickin' it.
 


OP
TalkToTheFiST
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Thread Starter #9
Maybe there's a bit of a culture clash here or something. I like discussion, it's why im a member of two online forums, one for cars and one for photography. Now i didn't read anything in the rules here that says we are not allowed to start threads that we find interesting, and this isn't a subject that i have made a thread on before so surely im not at risk to be "reported" by users who just want to boss others around right?

So yes i do use google and other sources but i also don't do research in a linear fashion or it could take weeks to find a simple answer. Time management suggests one could start a thread first and while waiting for replies, do some web searches or look it up on the tube ect. So what's the problem with these forum police here threatening reporting people just for starting discussions?

One guy said i was "ruining" the forum. Are you kidding me? One poster is ruining a forum by simply asking a question that was discussed already? I got news for everybody here, EVERY question even you could have Clint, has probably been discussed by somebody here in a thread (unless you have read every thread since this site was created?).

I get not wanting to clutter the thread list and i will try to be reasonable but i don't respond well to passive aggressive threats of ignores and reports and bans. Im not pointing fingers at anybody in particular, just a casual wave of my hand for anybody who doesn't like what im posting. Nobody is forcing anybody's hand to click the mouse and unless im breaking rules of some sort, i think people can just move along.

Clearly people are interested in the ideas im writing if they are commenting so why the need for the internet police? Im just tying to enjoy my time here and discuss ideas while i learn from people who know much more than i, i hope people can respect my freedom to do so.
 


OP
TalkToTheFiST
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Thread Starter #10
Just spend some time researching how to read a dyno graph. Once you get it, you'll see the benefit of an a/b comparison. Peak HP numbers is bench racing, dyno charts are proof, timeslips are big dickin' it.
Yes times would ultimately be the best test but there's so many other factors like human error, tire slip ect. A graph just showing a single gear pull like 3rd or 4th potentially eliminates many of those weaknesses. If not im open to hearing why, im just not seeing the downside when it comes to pure engine output numbers.
 


Clint Beastwood

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#11
Maybe there's a bit of a culture clash here or something. I like discussion, it's why im a member of two online forums, one for cars and one for photography. Now i didn't read anything in the rules here that says we are not allowed to start threads that we find interesting, and this isn't a subject that i have made a thread on before so surely im not at risk to be "reported" by users who just want to boss others around right?

So yes i do use google and other sources but i also don't do research in a linear fashion or it could take weeks to find a simple answer. Time management suggests one could start a thread first and while waiting for replies, do some web searches or look it up on the tube ect. So what's the problem with these forum police here threatening reporting people just for starting discussions?

One guy said i was "ruining" the forum. Are you kidding me? One poster is ruining a forum by simply asking a question that was discussed already? I got news for everybody here, EVERY question even you could have Clint, has probably been discussed by somebody here in a thread (unless you have read every thread since this site was created?).

I get not wanting to clutter the thread list and i will try to be reasonable but i don't respond well to passive aggressive threats of ignores and reports and bans. Im not pointing fingers at anybody in particular, just a casual wave of my hand for anybody who doesn't like what im posting. Nobody is forcing anybody's hand to click the mouse and unless im breaking rules of some sort, i think people can just move along.

Clearly people are interested in the ideas im writing if they are commenting so why the need for the internet police? Im just tying to enjoy my time here and discuss ideas while i learn from people who know much more than i, i hope people can respect my freedom to do so.
Nobody minds if you post new, unique thoughts or questions in moderation. When your threads start clogging up "Active Topics", or you start multiple parallel threads, or start new threads that are simply rehashing old material, people tend to get a little bent about it - especially when the questions you ask are covered already. There's a search button, and members of *every* forum get frustrated when people don't use it.

Nobody's trying to be internet police, but a few of us tried to give you a heads up that maybe you needed to pump the brakes and slow it down a bit - not trying to harsh your mellow - I like your enthusiasm - but like everything in life there has to be balance.

If this was an extremely high traffic forum like, say, vwvortex, your multiple parallel threads wouldn't be an issue - but here, a fairly low traffic forum, it can tend to suppress other interesting threads that never get traction because they're buried by yours, and people can get annoyed by having their post bumped in favor of something that takes five seconds to learn via searching. You *will* learn a lot from reading old threads on the subject, reading articles about things, etc .- then you can ask more specific more interesting questions. Perhaps I'm just a stickler, but I much prefer quality over quantity.

This is not an attack, just a friendly bit of advice on how to be a good citizen in our little community. If someone said you were ruining the forum, it's not because he's the only one that thinks so, just the only one that bothered to say so. I don't think you're ruining it, but I do think that perhaps your approach could use a little more work. Crowd-sourcing google searches isn't going to help you learn as much as reading a detailed article about how to interpret dyno results - if your goal is really to learn, then the info is out there.

Every group has a "vibe" - you kinda gotta sit back, feel the vibe, and roll with it.
 


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Ford ST

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#12
Here is a great example I don't have any social media. I do have the next door app though. Fantastic for lost pets and such.
People constantly post looking for a electrician, and plumber they get twenty-five different replies. Next day someone post the same thing again. If they would just use the search function they could find a electrician or plumber immediately.

you do post way too much and it is irritating. It takes over everybody else's stuff.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk
 


Clint Beastwood

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#13
A graph just showing a single gear pull like 3rd or 4th potentially eliminates many of those weaknesses.
That's exactly what a dyno pull is - it's not intrinsically useful, it's simply a set of data points. Then you dyno again, and gather a second set of data points. You measure the delta. Rinse and repeat. Check out the article I linked for you about how to read a dyno chart, if you actually read it there would be no need to continue this thread.
 


Spork1569

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#14
Here is a great example I don't have any social media. I do have the next door app though. Fantastic for lost pets and such.
People constantly post looking for a electrician, and plumber they get twenty-five different replies. Next day someone post the same thing again. If they would just use the search function they could find a electrician or plumber immediately.

you do post way too much and it is irritating. It takes over everybody else's stuff.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk
I thought that was just my neighborhood lol. It's mostly that and people complaining about speeders and loud cars(my crackle tune probably isn't helping but I try not to pop off in neighborhoods)
 


Clint Beastwood

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#15
A little harsher than I was going for.

Honestly OP, I was chiming in for altruistic reasons - your excitement is nice to see, I just want to make sure you slot comfortably as a member of the community and you may not have been aware how the over-posting came across. I figured it would be polite to give you a heads up before people started clicking your name and selecting "ignore" - because that's a bummer of a place to be.
 


HBEcoBeaST

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#16
I do enjoy discussion, but maybe a little research first might help you narrow down what you're looking for. And it will help you from asking unanswerable or unimportant questions.

Average tq and hp #s don't make sense. You should care about the power in the rpm range you're using. Peak hp in high rpms matter if you're drag racing. Peak torque down low matters for auto x and around town. It's about where you're making the power and where you're using the power.
 


OP
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Thread Starter #17
I do enjoy discussion, but maybe a little research first might help you narrow down what you're looking for. And it will help you from asking unanswerable or unimportant questions.

Average tq and hp #s don't make sense. You should care about the power in the rpm range you're using. Peak hp in high rpms matter if you're drag racing. Peak torque down low matters for auto x and around town. It's about where you're making the power and where you're using the power.
Well i wasn't talking about an average from 500rpm to 7000 as, i would assume it goes without saying, that's pretty useless. And i wasn't as much suggesting we create some sort of standard so people can compare "official" averages. This was more about a dynamic set of data, more for the individual to measure changes as mods progress.

For example, i have a Stratified tune and will probly take advantage of the lower RPM range, say 2000 to 4500, almost exclusively. I don't expect every other FIST owner, or car owner in general, to measure only that range average to compare to mine. But it might be very useful if i had a Dizzy tune also (which i hear is better up high) and took an average maybe 3000 to 5500, a range i might be likely to stay in for that tune, vs the Stratified range.

So this was very much about the rpm range one might use, that's actually exactly what im suggesting as each individual knows how they drive and can compare any range they like. It might be more useful for exactly the reasons you mention, a FIST+tune might hit 300 horses at 6000 but if the driver doesn't like revving that high for whatever reason, then that number has no meaning for them.

This is exactly my point, im asking about a different measuring method that could tailor more to our individual needs that we can adjust any time as needed. As for researching yes i am and will do even more elsewhere but i won't necessarily find your opinion there and i appreciate the individual's here and their knowledge. If i want to know what my neighbor things about something, i don't google it, i ask my neighbor.

Another reason i wanted to discuss it here is sometimes, info changes. For example e30. I found a thread here where a guy says he's running straight e85. But i have also found more current info that says DON"T DO IT! There's nothing more up to date than us discussing things right now in the present, and for that reason it's more valuable to me than any old thread.
 


Clint Beastwood

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#18
You are way overthinking it. Just lay a full dyno of one on top of a full dyno of the other and compare them. No need to average

Whichever dyno matches where you want to make power is the one for you.

Check out the dyno charts thread and compare em all. Big turbo for top end, little turbo for low end torque, etc. you use your dyno chart to figure out where to shift for max bewwwwsst
 


Last edited:
OP
TalkToTheFiST
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Thread Starter #19
A little harsher than I was going for.

Honestly OP, I was chiming in for altruistic reasons - your excitement is nice to see, I just want to make sure you slot comfortably as a member of the community and you may not have been aware how the over-posting came across. I figured it would be polite to give you a heads up before people started clicking your name and selecting "ignore" - because that's a bummer of a place to be.
Well i appreciate the heads up but that's too bad this place is like that. I have noticed any thread i have posted in, i get an alert on the bell icon when somebody else posts after me. Even if a thread i posted in gets buried 4 pages deep, it still pops an alert when there's a response.

So i assume this is about "new" posters to a particular thread who are seeing too many of my threads and not enough of somebody else's more important threads. So what this really is, is some members threatening to withdraw their engagement with me bc they think the threads they deem more important than mine, are not being left at the top of the pile.

I totally get what you are saying and i appreciate you letting me know but i also completely disagree with the reasoning of whoever thinks that way. I mean it's not like im posting to my own threads to bump them to the top, natural selection will sort it out, if nobody finds my threads interesting nobody will post in them and they will slide into oblivion.

These other threads that are supposed to be more important than mine, if they really are, people will be posting in them and they will keep refreshing to the top right? I don't get the need for intervention when the system is what it is. Im not trying to be annoying on purpose, im just on a forum to discuss things with current information from real people who are still into this. If people are bothered by that then they are free to ignore me, i won't even be mad.
 


OP
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Thread Starter #20
You are way overthinking it. Just lay a full dyno of one on top of a full dyno of the other and compare them. No need to average

Whichever dyno matches where you want to make power is the one for you.
It might be overthinking it for some but that can be said for people who spend hours and hours refining tunes just to shave 1/10 off their 0-60. If i have two dyno graphs and one has a higher peak in my usable range, but the other looks to be a bit flatter, it might not be so easy to tell which is better.

Im guessing going by the numbers, in this case getting an average, would be more accurate than just eyeballing it. I can't prove it but i'd like to try someday, or discuss it with others who have tried or are willing to.
 




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