The "Official" WRC thread

[Rallyfan74]

There seem to be quite a few rally racing fans on here so I figured it might be fun to have a place to discuss all things that go sideways......

I am currently watching the Acropolis rally, work nights, so watching em throughout the days over this weekend. If anyone is interested maybe we could share how we got into rally to start things off. I pretty much summed up my intro on my "new members" post recently and can't be arsed to type it all out again lol. What I didn't mention was being obsessed with the Audi Quattro as a kid. I don't know what it was, I was around 12 or so and got a little Matchbox car and living in the USA of course had zero exposure through television. Maybe I read up on it through my Dad's Autoweek magazines?

For my last two years of high school my family moved to Marin County, California. If you don't know what or where that is, it is across the Golden Gate Bridge from San Francisco. One of the most affluent places in America. My Dad got a job as a service manager at the local Mercedes Benz dealership and it was quite a shock moving there from a smallish town in Texas. Anyways, the parking lot at school was like a freaking car show. Kids driving everything you could imagine. And this one guy had a Mk2 Gti (this was in 1993), AND a Quattro. It was new, I guess the second generation, the one that had smoother lines, and I just DROOLED everytime I saw it. Was jealous as hell too. It came time for me to get my first car and I was thrilled that I got a somewhat of a beater 1983 Audi 5000. Non Quattro, and definitely non turbo, but I drove the shit out of that thing. It was a manual and I got two speeding tickets in my first six months. Ok, NONE of this has anything to do with Rally racing anymore lololol, so that's enough from me for now.

 

[M-Sport fan]

I first really learned about actual world level performance rallying from an all-around car enthusiast on my dorm floor at the University Of Arizona.

He had a powder blue, 1969 Mustang Boss 302 with REAL Minilite wheels on it (even painted black like some of the actual Trans Am cars), and knew A LOT about all kinds of performance cars.

He was always raving about the performance of the BDA 16V Escorts (and even the 8V Escort Mexico Mk1s before them), especially the ones in full rally prepped trim.
I started trying to discover anything I could about them, and also got into the whole thing which yes, was very difficult to do given the lack of ANY interest in rallying here in the states, especially back then with NO TV coverage whatsoever, and hardly an automotive rag's mention of the sport, ever.

I really loved the looks of those Escorts with their huge flares with wide (but small diameter) Minilites stuffed under them, and that was before I ever even was able to hear the beautiful, hellacious sound they made at full, close to 9K rev chat blasting through the woods, or on the paved roads of England, Ireland, and Europe!

I had a 1976, 'Black Cat' Edition Capri 2 V-6 manual at the time, and a few years later I even found some Minilite knock off wheels to put on it!

Some time later, once already married and settled, I bought a A1 (mk1) Rabbit/Golf GTI the very first year they were offered to U.S. here.
It had a manual sunroof, but NO other options (no power steering or power anything else).
It did not even come with a radio, just a radio installation kit/prep, so I had an Alpine cassette player head unit installed along with some Alpine speakers.

There was an Audi/VW specialist repair shop nearby, and the owners (who were naturalized, but recently from Poland) were fully into SCCA Pro Rally,

They ran an Audi 4000 AWD with a Audi 5000 turbo 5 cylinder engine swapped into it at every event they could (when we still had events on the East Coast!), both small regional, short one venue rallysprints, and full National level rallies.

They basically got me into volunteering/working on SCCA Pro rallies, with my first being the 1990 STPR (Susquehanna Trails Pro Rally) based out of Wellsboro, Pa., and I was 'hooked'.

John Buffum's step son, Paul Choniere was campaigning one of his step dad's (and prepped by his step dad's rally/race prep company, Libra Racing) long wheelbase 'Ur-Quattro', 1st gen Audi Quattro coupes, (as opposed to the short wheelbase, Group B MONSTER which his step dad did run for a while in Pro Rally here, back when they were still FIA legal) and was totally dominating the scene.
There were a few others running those same cars, as well as assorted Mazda 323 GTXes, etc.

He later campaigned that same second gen Audi Quattro Turbo coupe you lusted after, and was almost as equally dominant in that, along with the Sprongl brothers from Canada who also had success in that model.

I attended every STPR, and also the newly formed by Buffum and others in New England Maine Forest Rally (both winter and summer the years they ran both), later to be renamed The New England Forest Rally, every year after that until about 2004.

I actually lost interest when the whole series became a Subaru 'parade', with hardly any other rides/marques even entered, let alone with any chance of winning, starting in the mid 2000s.

This car's release, and for the first time ever, (except for the 1st gen Focus) being able to buy even the basic car which the top two FIA rally classes were built from, got me back into the WRC, and rallying in general, in 2018 when I again volunteered on STPR and NEFR, and started following the WRC again, intently, on the internet.

It did not hurt that some here, mainly Irish immigrant Barry McKenna were running open class Fiestas and R5s (as well as offering 'arrive and drive' rental R5s and front wheel drive R2/R2Ts) in these events, and actually challenging (and sometimes beating!) the very big buck, Vermont Sportscar built/prepped, Subaru Motorsports USA, STI/WRX juggernaut.

ALL of the National American Rally Association (they took over from the SCCA, and then Rally America) in 2017 on the east coast are now GONE.

Sadly, it does not look like they are coming back any time soon, so I have lost interest in attending any live rallies to work/volunteer on, going forward.

But I still follow the WRC, albeit less intently than before since the M-Sport Ford team has little to no chance against the totally unlimited budget Toyota and Hyundai teams (Ford gives them NOTHING at all), as well as because the Rally 1 car is now a Puma, since the Fiesta is totally out of production, even in Europe/UK.

The FIA still allows them to run the Fiesta Rally2/R5 cars in that class, but for how much longer, who knows?

 

[Rallyfan74]

I first really learned about actual world level performance rallying from an all-around car enthusiast on my dorm floor at the University Of Arizona.

He had a powder blue, 1969 Mustang Boss 302 with REAL Minilite wheels on it (even painted black like some of the actual Trans Am cars), and knew A LOT about all kinds of performance cars.

He was always raving about the performance of the BDA 16V Escorts (and even the 8V Escort Mexico Mk1s before them), especially the ones in full rally prepped trim.
I started trying to discover anything I could about them, and also got into the whole thing which yes, was very difficult to do given the lack of ANY interest in rallying here in the states, especially back then with NO TV coverage whatsoever, and hardly an automotive rag's mention of the sport, ever.

I really loved the looks of those Escorts with their huge flares with wide (but small diameter) Minilites stuffed under them, and that was before I ever even was able to hear the beautiful, hellacious sound they made at full, close to 9K rev chat blasting through the woods, or on the paved roads of England, Ireland, and Europe!

I had a 1976, 'Black Cat' Edition Capri 2 V-6 manual at the time, and a few years later I even found some Minilite knock off wheels to put on it!

Some time later, once already married and settled, I bought a A1 (mk1) Rabbit/Golf GTI the very first year they were offered to U.S. here.
It had a manual sunroof, but NO other options (no power steering or power anything else).
It did not even come with a radio, just a radio installation kit/prep, so I had an Alpine cassette player head unit installed along with some Alpine speakers.

There was an Audi/VW specialist repair shop nearby, and the owners (who were naturalized, but recently from Poland) were fully into SCCA Pro Rally,

They ran an Audi 4000 AWD with a Audi 5000 turbo 5 cylinder engine swapped into it at every event they could (when we still had events on the East Coast!), both small regional, short one venue rallysprints, and full National level rallies.

They basically got me into volunteering/working on SCCA Pro rallies, with my first being the 1990 STPR (Susquehanna Trails Pro Rally) based out of Wellsboro, Pa., and I was 'hooked'.

John Buffum's step son, Paul Choniere was campaigning one of his step dad's (and prepped by his step dad's rally/race prep company, Libra Racing) long wheelbase 'Ur-Quattro', 1st gen Audi Quattro coupes, (as opposed to the short wheelbase, Group B MONSTER which his step dad did run for a while in Pro Rally here, back when they were still FIA legal) and was totally dominating the scene.
There were a few others running those same cars, as well as assorted Mazda 323 GTXes, etc.

He later campaigned that same second gen Audi Quattro Turbo coupe you lusted after, and was almost as equally dominant in that, along with the Sprongl brothers from Canada who also had success in that model.

I attended every STPR, and also the newly formed by Buffum and others in New England Maine Forest Rally (both winter and summer the years they ran both), later to be renamed The New England Forest Rally, every year after that until about 2004.

I actually lost interest when the whole series became a Subaru 'parade', with hardly any other rides/marques even entered, let alone with any chance of winning, starting in the mid 2000s.

This car's release, and for the first time ever, (except for the 1st gen Focus) being able to buy even the basic car which the top two FIA rally classes were built from, got me back into the WRC, and rallying in general, in 2018 when I again volunteered on STPR and NEFR, and started following the WRC again, intently, on the internet.

It did not hurt that some here, mainly Irish immigrant Barry McKenna were running open class Fiestas and R5s (as well as offering 'arrive and drive' rental R5s and front wheel drive R2/R2Ts) in these events, and actually challenging (and sometimes beating!) the very big buck, Vermont Sportscar built/prepped, Subaru Motorsports USA, STI/WRX juggernaut.

ALL of the National American Rally Association (they took over from the SCCA, and then Rally America) in 2017 on the east coast are now GONE.

Sadly, it does not look like they are coming back any time soon, so I have lost interest in attending any live rallies to work/volunteer on, going forward.

But I still follow the WRC, albeit less intently than before since the M-Sport Ford team has little to no chance against the totally unlimited budget Toyota and Hyundai teams (Ford gives them NOTHING at all), as well as because the Rally 1 car is now a Puma, since the Fiesta is totally out of production, even in Europe/UK.

The FIA still allows them to run the Fiesta Rally2/R5 cars in that class, but for how much longer, who knows?

Good stuff! So you got hear a Quattro in full chat on a stage?

I really like the M-Sport team, have been doing a deep dive on their history, their commitment, family vibe etc, I love em! I can't believe just how much slower they are now in comparison to Toyota and Hyundai. I wonder, what is it that makes them that much slower? The powerplant? There is word that Hyundai may drop out after this year because it just costs so much money to run a team. There was also some saying that maybe the WRC would basically switch to more of a WRC2/ERC type of car. I think that could work if they let them open up the engines a bit more, they could still be pretty quick and that could let in Skoda, and Citroen into the action. But from the regs I have read on WRC their plan is to make it kind of like the DTM, all the cars are basically the same underneath except for the engine and then they can hang whatever bodywork they like on it including SUV's and trucks? Looking at the M Sport webpage I see they are making a MS-RT Ranger truck so I could see that is maybe what they are waiting for. It will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[M-Sport fan]

Yes, those LWB Ur-Quattros not only at full chat, but with all four wheels off of the ground, in the air over yumps/jumps with flames shooting out of the exhaust while they did so!
The funny thing is, when on stage working, the sound from afar of their 5 cylinder boosted powerplants sounds much like the Scoobies' flat four tone, a kind of 'woofling' sound, not the sharp higher pitched tone of the boosted (or especially naturally aspirated) inline four cylinder cars.

The whole main reason that M-Sport Ford World Rally Team is so far off of the pace of the other two Asian company juggernauts is simply having about 1/50th or less of their budgets for; R&D/wind tunnel or even CAD testing, materials development (within the FIA rules), extensive engine development (also within the rules, although way back in the Celica GT4/Alltrac Group A era Toyota Team Europe did get caught cheating with a turbo inlet restrictor bypass, yes, ingeniously hidden), much more massive spares/multiple cars stock piles, and most importantly enormous top tier driver enticing funds.

That M-Sport, with it's rookie level drivers/crews, can ever even score a single stage victory within any given WRC event is nothing short of miraculous.

Those Ranger trucks are currently only being developed for the World Rally Raid (W2RC) Championships, but yeah, if the Puma also goes out of production in Europe/UK/rest of world like the Fiesta has, who knows if they will develop it for the Rally 1 WRC.

I personally do not like the whole DTM-like, 'silhouette' body over a space frame BS for Rally 1 as is the current rule standard (even though yes, more spectacular and faster, even a good bit faster than the old, much beloved and vaunted Group B cars), and would much prefer a Rally 2++ with less engine turbo intake restriction (as well as allowing them to use dry sumps, like the Rally 1 rules allow) as you have suggested.

 

[Dialcaliper]

Yes, those LWB Ur-Quattros not only at full chat, but with all four wheels off of the ground, in the air over yumps/jumps with flames shooting out of the exhaust while they did so!
The funny thing is, when on stage working, the sound from afar of their 5 cylinder boosted powerplants sounds much like the Scoobies' flat four tone, a kind of 'woofling' sound, not the sharp higher pitched tone of the boosted (or especially naturally aspirated) inline four cylinder cars.

The whole main reason that M-Sport Ford World Rally Team is so far off of the pace of the other two Asian company juggernauts is simply having about 1/50th or less of their budgets for; R&D/wind tunnel or even CAD testing, materials development (within the FIA rules), extensive engine development (also within the rules, although way back in the Celica GT4/Alltrac Group A era Toyota Team Europe did get caught cheating with a turbo inlet restrictor bypass, yes, ingeniously hidden), much more massive spares/multiple cars stock piles, and most importantly enormous top tier driver enticing funds.

That M-Sport, with it's rookie level drivers/crews, can ever even score a single stage victory within any given WRC event is nothing short of miraculous.

Those Ranger trucks are currently only being developed for the World Rally Raid (W2RC) Championships, but yeah, if the Puma also goes out of production in Europe/UK/rest of world like the Fiesta has, who knows if they will develop it for the Rally 1 WRC.

I personally do not like the whole DTM-like, 'silhouette' body over a space frame BS for Rally 1 as is the current rule standard (even though yes, more spectacular and faster, even a good bit faster than the old, much beloved and vaunted Group B cars), and would much prefer a Rally 2++ with less engine turbo intake restriction (as well as allowing them to use dry sumps, like the Rally 1 rules allow) as you have suggested.

Sad that Rally still doesn’t have that big a following or manufacturer commitment like it did back in the day.

Group B was “legendary” but Group A of the 90’s when I was a kid is still the golden age for me, when you could still actually buy homologation specials and some of them were even available in the US.

 

[Rallyfan74]

Sad that Rally still doesn’t have that big a following or manufacturer commitment like it did back in the day.

Group B was “legendary” but Group A of the 90’s when I was a kid is still the golden age for me, when you could still actually buy homologation specials and some of them were even available in the US.

looking at the crowds it seems to still have a pretty big following in Europe of course.

 

[rallytaff]

I was sort of introduced into rallying when I was serving in the Royal Military Police in Northern Ireland during the 70's. I started talking to a senior NCO who had many years experience under his belt. I approached my CO and told him of my interest and was given permission to use a half ton Land Rover which we fitted with a roll cage, lights, harnesses and off we went to the UK for an event called Ex Cop Drive. This was a full 4 day event testing our skills with cross country navigation, skilled driving tests and cross country stages against the clock. We came back having won 5 trophies! I was hooked! On another event organized in Germany by BAMA (British Army Motoring Association) run event involving about 200 miles of stages. After the first day we were up to 9th o/a out of the max of 120 entries. However, it was short lived, when at the start of the night stages, in pouring rain, we slid off the track into mud and even with 2 other L/R trying to extract us with us all using 4 wheel drive, we were STUCK! We were pulled out by the 20ton wrecker, but we had lost too much time, so we retired. On our very first event in the UK with BAMA, we were sitting at the start of a forest stage with nice slippery, wet shale when an Intelligence Corp sergeant, who I knew from Germany, approached and told us to take it easy! Not being one to listen to advice, I looked at my navigator and smiled. We came off that first stage 2nd fastest overall!
Going back to Germany, I was based in Dusseldorf and happened to meet my future navigator, a Warrant Officer Class one (RSM, Regimental Sergeant Major) who worked in the Provost Marshall's office in Rheindahlen. At the time, I had a nearly new 1980 Vauxhall Chevette HS2300, the rally version was run by people like Pentti Arikala, Jimmy McRae, Tony Pond to name just a few. I'd fitted a cage, lights and harnesses and we decided to enter the Liege International Police Rally based in Liege, Belgium. This was open to any police officers, customs officers and other MP's from various countries. These events were run on open public roads, from about 10am until around 6am the following morning. Three whole days were spent making pace notes and it was quite tiring when you had about 300 miles to cover! One time we rented a Mk2 Ford Escort from a member of the RAF which let us down when a cross member bolt departed and we had to hold it in place with a rope to be able to drive back to Rheindahlen! Another time we rented a Citroen Visa from a Belgian police officer and came with a service crew. They were very surprised when we came off the stages to service and all we required was having the windshield cleaned and fill up with fuel! During my time in HM Forces, all our entry fees, gas and accommodation was paid for by the Army!
When I came to the States in '86, I purchased a 1972 Toyota Corolla, prepared by a Finn who was a rally driver himself, surprise, surprise and I entered rallycross events at the Glen Helen location and did the CRS (California Rally Series) rallies getting many 2nd and 3rd in the 2 wheel drive class. All this on a stock 1.6 engine! I rallied up until the mid 90's when things started to get expensive and decided to take over the Treeline Rally as organizer and ran it until the US Forestry Service decided to pull the permit on it and Rim of the World rally, probably due to pressure from the eco-whackos who didn't like us using OUR land for rallies!
I was due to return to the UK in June of last year to drive a '67 Hillman Imp owned by my old navigator (the best I ever had) in a 4 day event in North Wales. He had paid for everything and all I had to do is book my hotel and get there. However, sadly, he was suffering from Stage 4 cancer and his condition deteriorated and he cancelled our entry. He passed away the first week in Aug having endured painful chemo and radiotherapy. He will be missed.
This is just a short version of my history, hope you enjoy it! Any questions, go ahead.

 

[Rallyfan74]

I was sort of introduced into rallying when I was serving in the Royal Military Police in Northern Ireland during the 70's. I started talking to a senior NCO who had many years experience under his belt. I approached my CO and told him of my interest and was given permission to use a half ton Land Rover which we fitted with a roll cage, lights, harnesses and off we went to the UK for an event called Ex Cop Drive. This was a full 4 day event testing our skills with cross country navigation, skilled driving tests and cross country stages against the clock. We came back having won 5 trophies! I was hooked! On another event organized in Germany by BAMA (British Army Motoring Association) run event involving about 200 miles of stages. After the first day we were up to 9th o/a out of the max of 120 entries. However, it was short lived, when at the start of the night stages, in pouring rain, we slid off the track into mud and even with 2 other L/R trying to extract us with us all using 4 wheel drive, we were STUCK! We were pulled out by the 20ton wrecker, but we had lost too much time, so we retired. On our very first event in the UK with BAMA, we were sitting at the start of a forest stage with nice slippery, wet shale when an Intelligence Corp sergeant, who I knew from Germany, approached and told us to take it easy! Not being one to listen to advice, I looked at my navigator and smiled. We came off that first stage 2nd fastest overall!
Going back to Germany, I was based in Dusseldorf and happened to meet my future navigator, a Warrant Officer Class one (RSM, Regimental Sergeant Major) who worked in the Provost Marshall's office in Rheindahlen. At the time, I had a nearly new 1980 Vauxhall Chevette HS2300, the rally version was run by people like Pentti Arikala, Jimmy McRae, Tony Pond to name just a few. I'd fitted a cage, lights and harnesses and we decided to enter the Liege International Police Rally based in Liege, Belgium. This was open to any police officers, customs officers and other MP's from various countries. These events were run on open public roads, from about 10am until around 6am the following morning. Three whole days were spent making pace notes and it was quite tiring when you had about 300 miles to cover! One time we rented a Mk2 Ford Escort from a member of the RAF which let us down when a cross member bolt departed and we had to hold it in place with a rope to be able to drive back to Rheindahlen! Another time we rented a Citroen Visa from a Belgian police officer and came with a service crew. They were very surprised when we came off the stages to service and all we required was having the windshield cleaned and fill up with fuel! During my time in HM Forces, all our entry fees, gas and accommodation was paid for by the Army!
When I came to the States in '86, I purchased a 1972 Toyota Corolla, prepared by a Finn who was a rally driver himself, surprise, surprise and I entered rallycross events at the Glen Helen location and did the CRS (California Rally Series) rallies getting many 2nd and 3rd in the 2 wheel drive class. All this on a stock 1.6 engine! I rallied up until the mid 90's when things started to get expensive and decided to take over the Treeline Rally as organizer and ran it until the US Forestry Service decided to pull the permit on it and Rim of the World rally, probably due to pressure from the eco-whackos who didn't like us using OUR land for rallies!
I was due to return to the UK in June of last year to drive a '67 Hillman Imp owned by my old navigator (the best I ever had) in a 4 day event in North Wales. He had paid for everything and all I had to do is book my hotel and get there. However, sadly, he was suffering from Stage 4 cancer and his condition deteriorated and he cancelled our entry. He passed away the first week in Aug having endured painful chemo and radiotherapy. He will be missed.
This is just a short version of my history, hope you enjoy it! Any questions, go ahead.

Awesome recollections sir! I could be happy for hours hearing your stories from being in Germany at the height of the Cold War! Did you ever patrol the fulda gap? What was your mission if it ever "kicked off?" I heard a podcast recently "Cold War Conversations" with a gentleman who had the same job as yourself. He got very disillusioned with his orders in regards to for example, how drink driving was applied towards Officers vs. Enlisted. Not long ago I learned about the U.S. Army stay behind operation. They even had prepared with the "backpack" nukes at one time (more like the size of a small barrel of beer). To keep things related to rally racing, what was the last event you participated in?

 

[Rallyfan74]

Yes, those LWB Ur-Quattros not only at full chat, but with all four wheels off of the ground, in the air over yumps/jumps with flames shooting out of the exhaust while they did so!
The funny thing is, when on stage working, the sound from afar of their 5 cylinder boosted powerplants sounds much like the Scoobies' flat four tone, a kind of 'woofling' sound, not the sharp higher pitched tone of the boosted (or especially naturally aspirated) inline four cylinder cars.

The whole main reason that M-Sport Ford World Rally Team is so far off of the pace of the other two Asian company juggernauts is simply having about 1/50th or less of their budgets for; R&D/wind tunnel or even CAD testing, materials development (within the FIA rules), extensive engine development (also within the rules, although way back in the Celica GT4/Alltrac Group A era Toyota Team Europe did get caught cheating with a turbo inlet restrictor bypass, yes, ingeniously hidden), much more massive spares/multiple cars stock piles, and most importantly enormous top tier driver enticing funds.

That M-Sport, with it's rookie level drivers/crews, can ever even score a single stage victory within any given WRC event is nothing short of miraculous.

Those Ranger trucks are currently only being developed for the World Rally Raid (W2RC) Championships, but yeah, if the Puma also goes out of production in Europe/UK/rest of world like the Fiesta has, who knows if they will develop it for the Rally 1 WRC.

I personally do not like the whole DTM-like, 'silhouette' body over a space frame BS for Rally 1 as is the current rule standard (even though yes, more spectacular and faster, even a good bit faster than the old, much beloved and vaunted Group B cars), and would much prefer a Rally 2++ with less engine turbo intake restriction (as well as allowing them to use dry sumps, like the Rally 1 rules allow) as you have suggested.

If you want to see a M Sport Ford Fiesta in action, this weekend starting Friday is the ERC round in Rome. It's an all tarmac rally and Jon Armstrong is in the Ford. Maybe why he did the ITRC event as a warm up? I think there are 3 events left this season, all tarmac. Armstrong got 3rd overall last time out in Poland and he figures he is going to do better on Tarmac. I really like the ERC as the cars resemble more of a "road car".

 

[rallytaff]

I can't remember the year of my last event in Europe. I flew from CA, had to be in the 90's to do the last Liege event. The powers that be in France cut down on the length of the events and we didn't think it was worth the expense for a shorter event to attend any more.
My time in Germany spent mainly as Duty Sgt in charge of a shift or doing patrols. Officers were not treated any differently than enlisted men when it came to dui. You called the Duty Officer out to deal with it but you still submitted your paperwork through the channels. If you were ever arrested for being drunk, your career was basically done. You would never get promoted!
Never had a 'mission' to carry out apart from keeping families safe in the quarters and working with the GCP (German civil police). Most enjoyable postings were 2 2yr tours in N. Ireland during the 'troubles'. Managed to come out unscathed!