The merits of stopping at a stage 2+ setup

[OffTheWall503]

For what it's worth, I have intake, exhaust, front mount intercooler and a tune and still didn't make 300tq. I was very close, though, at 285.

The only way I've seen people hit 300tq is with an E85 tune.

 

[jeff]

For what it's worth, I have intake, exhaust, front mount intercooler and a tune and still didn't make 300tq. I was very close, though, at 285.

The only way I've seen people hit 300tq is with an E85 tune.

Thanks man. Yeah it may not be possible with my setup and I'm quite happy with my power level where it is, it would just be cool to hit that number but it's not exactly a goal.

Love your car btw!!!!

 

[WeTheNorth]

Haha you guys are too funny. You do know you're hitting that tq number for like a milisecond. But, I guess just to say you have 300 peak

 

[OffTheWall503]

Thanks man. Yeah it may not be possible with my setup and I'm quite happy with my power level where it is, it would just be cool to hit that number but it's not exactly a goal.

Love your car btw!!!!

That is much appreciated, thank you!

Haha you guys are too funny. You do know you're hitting that tq number for like a milisecond. But, I guess just to say you have 300 peak

I wanna hit 250 hp, but I'm doubting it will happen even with an E85 tune.

 

[WeTheNorth]

I wanna hit 250 hp, but I'm doubting it will happen even with an E85 tune.
[MENTION=4498]OffTheWall503[/MENTION] I think it's been said many times what the max whp in the k39 is but just as an example, on the DHM STAGE 2 + their protune. You hit 306wtq on 93.

Love your car as well, I'm having crank case pressure issues (oil residue galore) I need to invest in a occ soon here but funds haha

 

[M-Sport fan]

A set of coilovers for a previous vehicle.

WHY I do not want to just jump into one of the current offerings of this part, for these cars.

I will wait a while on pure stock suspension and hope that even better yet options come on down the pike.

 

[M-Sport fan]

People spend all this money on these little mods here and there with frankly very diminishing returns and the discussion about whether they do anything or who does it best never seems to end. Intakes, big mouth snorkels, downpipes, manifold spacers, etc all in the name of making it to a new "stage" (Marketing term), but the reality with that is that you're going to be chasing a high that you got going to stage one that just isn't there until you finally realize you need a better turbo to feel that again. Maxing out the stock turbo isn't hard and you can do it very quickly for very little money. It isn't that all these mods I mentioned do nothing, it's just that they don't do enough for the amount of money they cost and I'd argue most people would be better off taking that money and buying better tires instead because the re050a simply don't cut it for this car past stock.

Nobody gives the oem parts enough credit. The car is VERY well setup from the factory. You want the best intake? It came with the car. Best downpipe for the money? It came with the car. Charge pipes? Came with the car. I would argue the only hard part that NEEDS to be replaced is the intercooler because of it's inability to keep up with the car after tuning.

I am COUNTING on the bolded above being the case, since that is the only major 'hard part' engine related mod I plan to do right away, but do NOT want to start a whole new flame fest by stating which one I plan on buying, nor WHY it is my choice.
I will probably do a CBE as well, just for a little more sound than stock, and some minor weight savings.

Before I came on this forum, I was planning on keeping EVERYTHING factory stock, save for wheels/tires, suspension mods, and reduced throw shifter (the only very noticeable weak point, to me at least, during my test drives of the car).

About the points you make as to the whole 'STAGE' thing, I could not agree more.

I came from a platform which has NEVER used any form of standardized (are they across EVERY 'tuner' type platform??) 'stages' for mods/tuning, and probably never will.
We just did certain mods in a given progression without grouping them together in any way, so I had to look up, search, and call people just to know what the hell everyone is referring to with this stage stuff (I was NEVER into the whole sport compact/import/tuner/turbo scene like most were on this site).

I even thought that the stage 3 everyone talks about HAD TO include a bigger aftermarket turbo, and supporting mods. LOL

 

[jeff]

I am COUNTING on the bolded above being the case, since that is the only major 'hard part' engine related mod I plan to do right away, but do NOT want to start a whole new flame fest by stating which one I plan on buying, nor WHY it is my choice.
I will probably do a CBE as well, just for a little more sound than stock, and some minor weight savings.

Before I came on this forum, I was planning on keeping EVERYTHING factory stock, save for wheels/tires, suspension mods, and reduced throw shifter (the only very noticeable weak point, to me at least, during my test drives of the car).

About the points you make as to the whole 'STAGE' thing, I could not agree more.

I came from a platform which has NEVER used any form of standardized (are they across EVERY 'tuner' type platform??) 'stages' for mods/tuning, and probably never will.
We just did certain mods in a given progression without grouping them together in any way, so I had to look up, search, and call people just to know what the hell everyone is referring to with this stage stuff (I was NEVER into the whole sport compact/import/tuner/turbo scene like most were on this site).

I even thought that the stage 3 everyone talks about HAD TO include a bigger aftermarket turbo, and supporting mods. LOL

I agree, the OEM stuff is great with the exception of the FMIC. But hey I love my car so I'm gonna add some sound and bling and enjoy the process, and small gains are sure to be discovered here and there with aftermarket stuff.

To summarize this entire thread, for about $1000 you get most of what you can get out of the stock turbo. For more $$$, you get a few HP/TQ and some sound and the immeasurable joy of wrenching your car, decorating the engine bay, enjoying life.

Yes the whole "stages" thing can be confusing and deceptive and I agree it is a marketing scheme but I am using this nomenclature so we all have a reference point for the mods I've chosen.

I have a "mod budget" that grows monthly from extra cash that comes my way through a few supplemental sources of income, hence the Mountune purchase. The CBE is less a power mod and more a fun mod, though I'm curious as I said to see if there are a few HP to be had.

 

[commonplatypus]

I agree, the OEM stuff is great with the exception of the FMIC. But hey I love my car so I'm gonna add some sound and bling and enjoy the process, and small gains are sure to be discovered here and there with aftermarket stuff.

To summarize this entire thread, for about $1000 you get most of what you can get out of the stock turbo. For more $$$, you get a few HP/TQ and some sound and the immeasurable joy of wrenching your car, decorating the engine bay, enjoying life.

Yes the whole "stages" thing can be confusing and deceptive and I agree it is a marketing scheme but I am using this nomenclature so we all have a reference point for the mods I've chosen.

I have a "mod budget" that grows monthly from extra cash that comes my way through a few supplemental sources of income, hence the Mountune purchase. The CBE is less a power mod and more a fun mod, though I'm curious as I said to see if there are a few HP to be had.

I recently tracked the car on the stock FMIC in 90F weather here in Chicago with no issues whatsoever. Not once did I want for power. I'm beginning to believe the FMIC rhetoric is overblown.

 

[M-Sport fan]

I recently tracked the car on the stock FMIC in 90F weather here in Chicago with no issues whatsoever. Not once did I want for power. I'm beginning to believe the FMIC rhetoric is overblown.

That might just be, if one is not constantly pushing their turbo/engine to it's very limits.

In any case, I WILL wait until after the winter to do the IC and custom tune, and just do the RMM, and shift kit at delivery.

 

[OffTheWall503]

For what it's worth, I experienced a loss of 10-15 hp and 10 tq between two consecutive dyno pulls when I had my stock intercooler on a 75 degree day. I couldn't imagine a track day with a stock FMIC if it was 90+ degrees or hotter.

 

[commonplatypus]

For what it's worth, I experienced a loss of 10-15 hp and 10 tq between two consecutive dyno pulls when I had my stock intercooler on a 75 degree day. I couldn't imagine a track day with a stock FMIC if it was 90+ degrees or hotter.

It was totally fine on the track in stock form. No issues of any sort in any of my three 20-minute sessions around a 2.1 mile course at Autobahn in Joliet, IL. I never wanted for power, never had cooling issues, and the stock brakes (Yes stock brake pads and rotors) were fine, albeit I replaced the fluid with ATE Type 200 before going after having previously boiled it in a two driver autocross event earlier in the year that put some air in my lines. People overthink this and get target fixation on the data. You're not going to make all of the power all of the time. It just isn't realistic because you're still subject to thermodynamics. Just drive the car. A dyno scenario takes away the benefit of moving air at different velocities. It's no surprise that you saw increasing amounts of parasitic loss from the heat when the car isn't moving and has to rely on fans to keep cool. It's not the same and never will be.

The only issue I had was that I melted my rear tires a bit due to oversteering the car through tight corners. I was running RE71R tires with too much pressure. This is a mistake I won't make twice.

I was catching cars I had no business catching in this thing. It was fun.

Did I mention the car is bone stock?

 

[commonplatypus]

That's awesome. However I am pretty sure there is an overwhelming amount of objective data, datalogs, dyno runs, temp measurements, etc. all around that give credence to the benefits of the FMIC upgrade.

BTW love your car, I've been reading a good bit of your posts and you've done a great job.

I'm sure there is. I'm actually totally stock now. Completely parted out and detuned the car so that I can do competitive autocross in H Street class. I feel like datalogging might actually be a double edged sword. It's useful in competition in some scenarios, but not all of the time. I feel like I might actually get more benefit out of telemetry recording for timing and driver inputs through a tool like Harry's laptimer than I might out of a tuning device at this point. The car is actually really REALLY good on a track in stock form.

I'm sure the FMIC would help, but it didn't feel like I was suffering heat soak very badly. The thing on the track is that you're not always going flat out in a straight line, so the stock FMIC has time to catch up. It also helps keep the nose light to be stock as the stock fitment only ways a whopping 4 lbs. I weight it when I originally had swapped it out. It really doesn't do the worst job ever. Could it be better? Probably. Is it awful? Not at all.

 

[OffTheWall503]

I'm sure the track cools better than the dyno since there is just one fan blowing at it from the front and on the track you get high speed air flow, so I could see how there may not be issues. But like others have mentioned, others and myself have experienced heat soak issues in different situations.

Either way, my MTC intercooler was the best $320 I've spent on my car.

 

[re-rx7]

I've logged inter cooler temps at the track. Lol at not needing one because it "felt" fine. Haha

 

[magneticFiST]

Just wanted to chime in and say that this was a great read. It is nice to see so many passionate Fiesta owners. I've now owned my FiST for about a month and have been dbating on my mod path.

After reading this thread, I have pretty much came to the conclusion that a CAI is pretty much useless performance-wise. I had planned to make a RMM and CAI my first two mods, but now I'm thinking a RMM, FMIC, and a tune will get me where I want to go. I would like the car to make some more noise but an exhaust is nowhere in my near future. My FiST is my daily and I commute in Downtown Sacramento daily, so I do not need a bunch of power, but I do want to be "that guy" that sets of car alarms in the parking garage eventually.

Any other downtown commuters that have gone stage 2 or further? What are the effects on daily driving and have you had any reliability issues?

 

[M-Sport fan]

It was totally fine on the track in stock form. No issues of any sort in any of my three 20-minute sessions around a 2.1 mile course at Autobahn in Joliet, IL. I never wanted for power, never had cooling issues, and the stock brakes (Yes stock brake pads and rotors) were fine, albeit I replaced the fluid with ATE Type 200 before going after having previously boiled it in a two driver autocross event earlier in the year that put some air in my lines. People overthink this and get target fixation on the data. You're not going to make all of the power all of the time. It just isn't realistic because you're still subject to thermodynamics. Just drive the car. A dyno scenario takes away the benefit of moving air at different velocities. It's no surprise that you saw increasing amounts of parasitic loss from the heat when the car isn't moving and has to rely on fans to keep cool. It's not the same and never will be.

The only issue I had was that I melted my rear tires a bit due to oversteering the car through tight corners. I was running RE71R tires with too much pressure. This is a mistake I won't make twice.

I was catching cars I had no business catching in this thing. It was fun.

Did I mention the car is bone stock?

THANKS for this feedback above, as it is VERY encouraging, and makes me look forward to even the PURE STOCK car even more than I already was (as many on here had me doubting it, even for cold winter use as regards the IC's and radiator's capabilities!)!!

 

[BronxBomber]

Definitely accessport and FMIC. Unless you're ok with how slow the car is stock. If you get an accessport and tune without the intercooler, the effects of heat soak will be even more noticeable due to the elevated boost levels and the inability of the stock intercooler to cope. But hey, everyone's got their own opinion.

 

[commonplatypus]

I've logged inter cooler temps at the track. Lol at not needing one because it "felt" fine. Haha

I'm increasingly of the opinion that heat management becomes a more immediately concern only when tuned after increasing timing and boost on an engine that already runs hot. On the stock tune it appears fine and exhibited no issues. There was no noticeable change in pace or power delivery during my sessions on the track. It was quite literally fine. A more immediate concern would be braking performance. While the stock brakes performed admirably, they began to get spongey towards the tail end of each 20-minute session and needed roughly thirty minutes to cool off before going out again. This was expected and probably assisted by the better ATE fluid I had put into the system. My experience is that I had no glaring issues.

I'm admittedly enjoying my tune free life after de-modding and detuning. No longer bound by concerns for performance metrics and logging, less concern for gas quality, and I don't have to constantly monitor anything anymore. Worst that happens is limp mode if it does start developing issues, but so far I haven't experienced any. It's been a very liberating experience. I'm in the market for something else anyways, so this is fine.

I'm not casting doubt on your input as you've been a huge source of information for me in the past when researching on my own. This is just where I'm at with the car now. There isn't much left for me to get out of it and the investment doesn't have a big enough return for me with regards to modding it. I'm just going to stick with brakes, tires, and fluids until I get rid of it.

Definitely accessport and FMIC. Unless you're ok with how slow the car is stock. If you get an accessport and tune without the intercooler, the effects of heat soak will be even more noticeable due to the elevated boost levels and the inability of the stock intercooler to cope. But hey, everyone's got their own opinion.

There is data out there from sources such as D Sport magazine that suggests that a stock Fiesta is roughly only just under two seconds slower than a "stage 3" Fiesta and it is one of the observations that spurred me into my revision to stock in addition to my need to comply with autocross classing regulations. Most of that time gained was actually from shedding 160lbs of weight from the car, however. Tracking the car is more often a driver's game and the wheel spin coming out of tight corners on autocross was enough of an inhibition that it actually showed that a tuned version of the car was actually slower than stock due to the skinny wheel base and tire limitations on the car not being able to apply the power properly without excessive throttle modulation. Traction is one of the biggest limitations this car faces; not power as much.

If all you care about is highway pulls and street light racing, tuned works fine. If competition driving is your game, that might be another story entirely.

 

[commonplatypus]

I'm sure the track cools better than the dyno since there is just one fan blowing at it from the front and on the track you get high speed air flow, so I could see how there may not be issues. But like others have mentioned, others and myself have experienced heat soak issues in different situations.

Either way, my MTC intercooler was the best $320 I've spent on my car.

The MTC is actually the FMIC I had. Quite liked it. Good value. It does the job well. I feel like it sets the benchmark for what intercooler offerings and price points should be on this platform. I'm stock for classing reasons in autocross primarily. It does fine there and I also found it to be fine on the track. Until I get rid of the car, this is where it will be for me configuration-wise.