Are stage 1 and 2 fully dependent on bolt ons?

[TalkToTheFiST]

So im trying to get an understanding on the software vs the hardware. As i have heard it, a stage 3 requires a new turbo? If so, then this one is a bit easier to define but what about the other two? I have heard stage 1 is basically a CAI and RMM, and stage 2 is FMIC. So is the only difference in software a more advanced timing and higher PSI push for the stock turbo?

Do people put a stage 2 on a fully stock car? I see the wisdom of having a better FMIC if you are going to push PSI higher as that will help out with added heat, but is that the only thing needed? What if a person lived in a cold climate that was 35 degrees every day, would that FMIC be as important for running high boost?

 

[RubenZZZ]

Ignore the whole "stage" thing. It's not definitive. It's more of a guideline.

As mentioned before, you basically max out the stock turbo by running an E30 (methanol/gas mix) tune. You can realistically run it on a completely stock car, but eventually the factory intercooler is going to heatsoak and the car may go into limp-mode. An upgraded IC will help control air intake temps.

The intake tract and exhaust are not very restrictive for the factory turbo. That's not to say there aren't gains to be found, but the biggest power gain will come from tuning for higher octane.

With the added torque freed by the tune an upgraded Rear Motor Mount is a great upgrade. If you ever shifted agressively, you may have heard/felt a drivetrain "slam". It's not the engine hitting the firewall, it's the mounts slamming into themselves as the factory rubber isolation is rather soft for NVH. A RMM will solve this and even help make shifting firmer.

Once you finally swap to a larger turbo, all the intake/exhaust upgrades will definitely help let that bigger turbo breathe in and out.



Sent from my LGLS992 using Tapatalk

 

[MRX330]

Big turbo and Thermal exhaust

 

[TyphoonFiST]

Thermal and Big Turbo exhaust

 

[Clint Beastwood]

So im trying to get an understanding on the software vs the hardware. As i have heard it, a stage 3 requires a new turbo? If so, then this one is a bit easier to define but what about the other two? I have heard stage 1 is basically a CAI and RMM, and stage 2 is FMIC. So is the only difference in software a more advanced timing and higher PSI push for the stock turbo?

Do people put a stage 2 on a fully stock car? I see the wisdom of having a better FMIC if you are going to push PSI higher as that will help out with added heat, but is that the only thing needed? What if a person lived in a cold climate that was 35 degrees every day, would that FMIC be as important for running high boost?

The "Staged" packages are a way of a vendor certifying that they know their tune works and was tested with hardware meeting a defined set of parameters, i.e. if Cobb is going to give you a stage 2 tune, they've tested it with the recommended hardware and confirmed that doing so is safe in 100% of tested cases. Once you step outside that defined hardware configuration, you are moving outside of what they have verified and you may wind up encountering problems. Some changes, like an RMM, really help to mitigate torque steer and the engine banging off the stock rubber mounts (and surprisingly, help the 1-2, 2-3 shifts). Other changes, like the intercooler, keep things safe by lowering intake charge temperatures to keep your car running smoothly. Can you run a tune that stipulates you need an intercooler, without one? Yes - but you are operating outside of the tested spec, so whatever happens is on you. The safest way to do so is to have a cobb accessport so you can log data and get realtime metrics to see how your car is "feeling". You won't necessarily notice knock, but with an AP you'll see your OAR go down, or ignition corrections, etc.

Anecdotally - while my Whoosh IC was on order I installed my Stratified tune anyways. My intake charge temps heated up pretty quickly and I was getting ignition corrections during times when the ambient temp was ~103f. I removed the tune and waited for the IC. Once I received the intercooler and installed it I flashed the tune back on and no longer experienced the negative symptoms - cooler intake charge temps, no ignition corrections, and a generally happier car. When running the tune with the stock RMM, if I hit the gas in second gear it felt like the car wanted to jump into the lane next to me and I could hear the stock mounts thumping around. After adding the recommended RMM - it was nice and smooth, and to this day I murder tires because when they break loose I no longer feel it getting squirrely from side to side, they just break traction smoothly and predictably. I can also see on my AP when I fill up with poopy gas - I'll get some corrections and maybe the OAR will drop, which is usually my sign to drop back to Cobb stage 0 tune until I make some room in the tank and drop 1.5-2 gallons of e85 into the tank, then it generally cleans right up.




TL;DR - just because you *can* do something, doesn't mean you *should*. Yes, they may be making their hardware recommendations to move product, but they also want your car to be safe so they recommend a set of hardware which keeps you as safe as possible while running the tune at that level. Tuners won't be able to sell tunes if people's cars blow up running them, so they encourage you to run their tunes in the safest possible manner.


Also, dermal and big tato exhaust

 

[MRX330]

Eff the warranty and go for it.

 

[MRX330]

Thermal and Big Turbo exhaust

That’s Thermal exhaust and Big Turbo. Hello?

 

[TalkToTheFiST]

Eff the warranty and go for it.

LOL.

 

[MRX330]

The "Staged" packages are a way of a vendor certifying that they know their tune works and was tested with hardware meeting a defined set of parameters, i.e. if Cobb is going to give you a stage 2 tune, they've tested it with the recommended hardware and confirmed that doing so is safe in 100% of tested cases. Once you step outside that defined hardware configuration, you are moving outside of what they have verified and you may wind up encountering problems. Some changes, like an RMM, really help to mitigate torque steer and the engine banging off the stock rubber mounts (and surprisingly, help the 1-2, 2-3 shifts). Other changes, like the intercooler, keep things safe by lowering intake charge temperatures to keep your car running smoothly. Can you run a tune that stipulates you need an intercooler, without one? Yes - but you are operating outside of the tested spec, so whatever happens is on you. The safest way to do so is to have a cobb accessport so you can log data and get realtime metrics to see how your car is "feeling". You won't necessarily notice knock, but with an AP you'll see your OAR go down, or ignition corrections, etc.

Anecdotally - while my Whoosh IC was on order I installed my Stratified tune anyways. My intake charge temps heated up pretty quickly and I was getting ignition corrections during times when the ambient temp was ~103f. I removed the tune and waited for the IC. Once I received the intercooler and installed it I flashed the tune back on and no longer experienced the negative symptoms - cooler intake charge temps, no ignition corrections, and a generally happier car. When running the tune with the stock RMM, if I hit the gas in second gear it felt like the car wanted to jump into the lane next to me and I could hear the stock mounts thumping around. After adding the recommended RMM - it was nice and smooth, and to this day I murder tires because when they break loose I no longer feel it getting squirrely from side to side, they just break traction smoothly and predictably. I can also see on my AP when I fill up with poopy gas - I'll get some corrections and maybe the OAR will drop, which is usually my sign to drop back to Cobb stage 0 tune until I make some room in the tank and drop 1.5-2 gallons of e85 into the tank, then it generally cleans right up.




TL;DR - just because you *can* do something, doesn't mean you *should*. Yes, they may be making their hardware recommendations to move product, but they also want your car to be safe so they recommend a set of hardware which keeps you as safe as possible while running the tune at that level. Tuners won't be able to sell tunes if people's cars blow up running them, so they encourage you to run their tunes in the safest possible manner.


Also, dermal and big tato exhaust

Someone is very chatty tonight

 

[TalkToTheFiST]

The "Staged" packages are a way of a vendor certifying that they know their tune works and was tested with hardware meeting a defined set of parameters, i.e. if Cobb is going to give you a stage 2 tune, they've tested it with the recommended hardware and confirmed that doing so is safe in 100% of tested cases. Once you step outside that defined hardware configuration, you are moving outside of what they have verified and you may wind up encountering problems. Some changes, like an RMM, really help to mitigate torque steer and the engine banging off the stock rubber mounts (and surprisingly, help the 1-2, 2-3 shifts). Other changes, like the intercooler, keep things safe by lowering intake charge temperatures to keep your car running smoothly. Can you run a tune that stipulates you need an intercooler, without one? Yes - but you are operating outside of the tested spec, so whatever happens is on you. The safest way to do so is to have a cobb accessport so you can log data and get realtime metrics to see how your car is "feeling". You won't necessarily notice knock, but with an AP you'll see your OAR go down, or ignition corrections, etc.

Anecdotally - while my Whoosh IC was on order I installed my Stratified tune anyways. My intake charge temps heated up pretty quickly and I was getting ignition corrections during times when the ambient temp was ~103f. I removed the tune and waited for the IC. Once I received the intercooler and installed it I flashed the tune back on and no longer experienced the negative symptoms - cooler intake charge temps, no ignition corrections, and a generally happier car. When running the tune with the stock RMM, if I hit the gas in second gear it felt like the car wanted to jump into the lane next to me and I could hear the stock mounts thumping around. After adding the recommended RMM - it was nice and smooth, and to this day I murder tires because when they break loose I no longer feel it getting squirrely from side to side, they just break traction smoothly and predictably. I can also see on my AP when I fill up with poopy gas - I'll get some corrections and maybe the OAR will drop, which is usually my sign to drop back to Cobb stage 0 tune until I make some room in the tank and drop 1.5-2 gallons of e85 into the tank, then it generally cleans right up.




TL;DR - just because you *can* do something, doesn't mean you *should*. Yes, they may be making their hardware recommendations to move product, but they also want your car to be safe so they recommend a set of hardware which keeps you as safe as possible while running the tune at that level. Tuners won't be able to sell tunes if people's cars blow up running them, so they encourage you to run their tunes in the safest possible manner.


Also, dermal and big tato exhaust

Thanks for the info Clint. Not necessarily going to do it but im just seeing what the limits of it all are. Tomorrow im returning my Race Chip. By the end of the week i will have about $450 to spend so im debating what to do. I gotta say this though, today i uninstalled my chip and the difference going back to stock was quite noticeable, no real wheel spin in 2nd stock and with the chip it was very clearly breaking loose while tq was higher.

Their top tier chip is supposed to be 50% more boost (whatever the actual hp/tq numbers are), and it's $450, or i could go with an AP if i can find one. No matter what i do in the meantime, by next spring at the latest im getting a new FMIC, possibly sooner. Now i will say, i doubt i will go further than a stage 2 tune with an AP, so whatever power i can get out of it would be the extent of my mods. But non of the OTS tunes really push boost too high from what i've been reading, which means i would need a custom tune right?

What im after is eventually, to have a bigger IC and bump up my boost for more power. I'd love to get turbo upgrade but that's at best a couple years away. The GTS race chip will definitely give me a solid gain in power, considerably better than the one i just uninstalled, or i can get an AP and probably a custom tune? But that also means more cash for the tune, plus i might not want to do a stage 2 until i get a better FMIC, which means stage 1 is the limit till at least after winter. I know people are all for the AP but im not really after any other features, i just want to up my boost and leave it at that.

 

[MRX330]

Until the stock turbo is replaced with a bigger one you are pulling your pud. I lived in denial for years hissing at big turbo FiSTers all the while wanting viscous acceleration. Don’t waste time and money putting lipstick on a pig. Big turbo or bust 🇺🇸

 

[Clint Beastwood]

Adding boost without monitoring for safety is a bad idea. We’re all for the AP because it is the proven way to go for both results and safety/monitoring.

None of the tunes push boost as high as you’d like to see because boost is only one factor in the tuning process. Your lack of awareness of this fact is a strong indicator you really need to do some real, actual research into tuning a turbo car - that does not involve marketing materials or YouTube videos. Push boost above a certain level and you are no longer volumetrically efficient. This is where *monitoring* and *adjusting* timing come into play. Your higher boost number will be just that, a number, while pushing your turbo past where it’s actually making effective boost.

Your best bet if you want fun, safe, usable power is going to be a used AP and a canned Dizzy or Stratified tune, no custom required. Either of those, plus the vendors recommended mods, will inject quite a bit of fun and *usable* power. Then at a later date when you do more mods, upgrade your dv, etc. you could always get a custom tune. If you want bonkers power get a Cobb ap, run the stage one or two, and wait for a dizzy holiday sale where they bundle an ots tune and an e30 one. On e30 first and second gears are pretty useless but that third gear shove is nuts. With a strat or dizzy tune a big part of the “omg power increase” feeling is the remapping of the throttle. Even stock power with remapped throttle feels great.

Without a big turbo your FiST is going to be roughly on par with a v6 Camry in the quarter mile, whether you do a tune, racechip, whatever. You’d be better off tuning for fun and just enjoy monster midrange torque.

You need to *plan* your mod path, then start saving up for the required components and do things correctly. There’s a reason the mountune ap/tune/staged upgrades came with warranties: safe power. Anything worth doing is worth doing right.

 

[TalkToTheFiST]

Adding boost without monitoring for safety is a bad idea. We’re all for the AP because it is the proven way to go for both results and safety/monitoring.

None of the tunes push boost as high as you’d like to see because boost is only one factor in the tuning process. Your lack of awareness of this fact is a strong indicator you really need to do some real, actual research into tuning a turbo car - that does not involve marketing materials or YouTube videos. Push boost above a certain level and you are no longer volumetrically efficient. This is where *monitoring* and *adjusting* timing come into play. Your higher boost number will be just that, a number, while pushing your turbo past where it’s actually making effective boost.

Your best bet if you want fun, safe, usable power is going to be a used AP and a canned Dizzy or Stratified tune, no custom required. Either of those, plus the vendors recommended mods, will inject quite a bit of fun and *usable* power. Then at a later date when you do more mods, upgrade your dv, etc. you could always get a custom tune. If you want bonkers power get a Cobb ap, run the stage one or two, and wait for a dizzy holiday sale where they bundle an ots tune and an e30 one. On e30 first and second gears are pretty useless but that third gear shove is nuts. With a strat or dizzy tune a big part of the “omg power increase” feeling is the remapping of the throttle. Even stock power with remapped throttle feels great.

Without a big turbo your FiST is going to be roughly on par with a v6 Camry in the quarter mile, whether you do a tune, racechip, whatever. You’d be better off tuning for fun and just enjoy monster midrange torque.

You need to *plan* your mod path, then start saving up for the required components and do things correctly. There’s a reason the mountune ap/tune/staged upgrades came with warranties: safe power. Anything worth doing is worth doing right.

Ok so if i entertain your logic, and by the way i do understand and agree that an AP is probably a safer bet, how much does a usual canned tune go for? I've heard something like $100, and maybe $150-$200 for a custom. If i can find an AP for $400 or so i could probly scrape up another $100 after that for a canned tune if it's enough.

Im not against a canned tune if it's going to be a step up in power from the OTS options.

 

[TyphoonFiST]

Id say between $75 -$200 dollars depends on the tuner I've had Stratifieds 91 oct....93 oct...E30 tune that you could switch through the cruise control. It was a great way to move through Maps. It was like $`150 when I did it a couple years ago. Still a great deal ! Good luck you cant go wrong with any of the tuners either they are all good...Dizzy...stratified...Tune +...JST.

 

[TalkToTheFiST]

Id say between $75 -$200 dollars depends on the tuner I've had Stratifieds 91 oct....93 oct...E30 tune that you could switch through the cruise control. It was a great way to move through Maps. It was like $`150 when I did it a couple years ago. Still a great deal ! Good luck you cant go wrong with any of the tuners either they are all good...Dizzy...stratified...Tune +...JST.

Ok well that's a place to start. If i can get an AP in a timely manner and if a canned tune is a few bucks more than i have left over i can always get a OTS to start and a couple weeks later i'll be able to throw another hundred at it for the canned tune. So now the trick is to find an AP for $450 or less, and hopefully not 6mo from now.

 

[TyphoonFiST]

Roll that for a while and then do something else. Its what I did......Good luck!

 

[Clint Beastwood]

What’s cool is you can get an ap and you get the Cobb tunes for free. Get a drop in air filter and run Cobb stage 1 while you research tunes. Once you pick a tuner it’s like 70-100 bucks for an ots, but you need to have the requisite mods to safely run the tune. Review stratified and dizzy tune requirements to get an idea what is required.

 

[Spork1569]

Ok well that's a place to start. If i can get an AP in a timely manner and if a canned tune is a few bucks more than i have left over i can always get a OTS to start and a couple weeks later i'll be able to throw another hundred at it for the canned tune. So now the trick is to find an AP for $450 or less, and hopefully not 6mo from now.

There's been a few in the $400 range posted in the past few weeks even here. They're resold often enough that with some patience and luck(they can go quickly sometiemes) you'll find one in no time.

Another suggestion as well if you purchase new there is the deal from stratified where you get a free flash tune with the AP if you buy from them.

 

[Hypergram]

Ok well that's a place to start. If i can get an AP in a timely manner and if a canned tune is a few bucks more than i have left over i can always get a OTS to start and a couple weeks later i'll be able to throw another hundred at it for the canned tune. So now the trick is to find an AP for $450 or less, and hopefully not 6mo from now.

Keep on close eye on the for sale thread. A few days ago, someone posted their AP and a pillar mount for $400. 10 minutes later it was mine for $390. All of those things new would have been about $650. Plus it came with a stratified tune.

 

[koozy]