Brake and Engine overheating questions

[ericr]

I recently finished doing basic prepping of my car for the track and then went on a road trip to test things out. I had both brake fade and engine overheating and was wondering if this is something others experience while tracking their cars. I haven't been to the track yet with this car but hope to do so before the weather gets bad up here in the northwest. I made a post under the general interest section but haven't heard a response. I thought that this might be a better venue to get a response of whether a stock-engined car is up for tracking.

BTW, I have Yoko AD08R's in 215/40's and really like them. They communicate their limits very well with just a bit of noise and very gradual break-away at the limits with the 2 1/4 neg camber I'm running. The recommended 32 psi optimum hot pressure is also well matched, I think, for a lightweight car. Not good for potholes though.

Anyways, here's the post I made, and hope that someone here might comment on overheating;

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GTS Routes
A recent issue of Car and Driver had an article listing states with the best roads. They mentioned that the data was obtained from Porsche's GTS Routes application.

This free app is available for Android, iOS, and browser. You can view existing routes, or create your own with the Drive feature. Once saved, you can share it out to the community.

Last week, I returned from a road trip from WA state to Monterey, CA to watch the historic racing at Laguna Seca (saw 5 New GT350's running on the track - that flat plane V8 sounds awesome). During the drive there and back, I recorded 6 routes from the border with Oregon south to around Geyserville. I like the app and encourage you to take a look at it.

One route called Mattole Road, which I did not create but did follow, on the Lost Coast south of Eureka should be avoided. The road has really deteriorated over the last few years and is now loaded with large potholes. I bent 2 TD ProRace 1.2's on this road probably because I was running fairly low pressure on my AD08R's (35 lbs hot).

A couple of my recorded roads have long downhill sections which are tough on brakes. I had brake fade 3 times even with Torque fluid and Porterfield R4 pads.

I also got an engine overtemp alarm once within two minutes of starting up a 5% grade in 3rd and 4th gears. It was 78 degrees out and about 2,000 feet.

Overall, what a great trip and what a great car. Hope you enjoy the app. Let us know if you've also had experience with this app and have recorded routes.

 

[Autonomous]

Thanks for the app info. I have no time/money for track days or mods ATM, but interesting roads are free. Not going to be unsafe on these roads, just want to find some hidden gems.

 

[meFiSTo]

Wow. You are putting some miles in. Interesting findings on the overheating and brake fade.

On a trip like that you might consider water/water wetter for the same reason it works at the track. Anti-freeze is not as good at cooling as water alone, although it might be less prone to boiling over (not really sure). I'm planning on getting the big Mishimoto radiator to go along with the Mishimoto oil cooler I have on order. So, you can see, I'm wary of this car's inherent cooling capabilities.

As for brake fade, I guess that downhill grade really got things hot. Torque has good numbers, but Castrol SRF is the gold standard. If you are not happy with Torque, you might try that. I suspect Motul would have had the same result. I'm running Torque as well. I've got Carbotech XP8 pads which served me well at my only track day so far this year. However, I am notoriously easy on brakes (brake early and progressively). However, I did leave the ESC nanny on for part of a session and my brakes started to smoke a bit, but still no fade. I did add some cooling deflectors over the summer and you might think about some kind of ducting or deflectors to get air driving heat out of there. RAAMAudio is working on something for his monster.

Not much help, I know, but a data point for you.

Side note: I'm signed up to join the Lotus kids for a track day next Friday (Sept. 4) in Portland. It's not really an out and back, but the Lotus club event is always one of my favorites. It's the All British weekend in Portland and they are holding vintage racing as well. Assuming I go, it'll be just for the track day. Maybe think about joining us. Big plus: You sign up through Mark Viskov in advance, but you don't have to pay until the day of the event. AND: If you don't go, you don't owe. $250 for the day.

http://www.clnw.org/

 

[GAbOS]

You guys with data rock and I cant thank you enough. Great reading.

 

[ericr]

I agree that probably a bigger radiator and intercooler are the answers. And, for brakes, ducting or big brake kits? I don't think it's the fluid or the pads, it's just a matter of mass and the ability to shed heat. Those that have experienced overheating brakes, do control arm duct vanes or hose ducts fix the problem? Or, do you need a big brake kit?

For engine overheat, if I get an occasional overheat warning on a road trip, it's probably not worth the investment to do anything. If I go to the track and only make 10 minutes out of a 20 minute session before I overheat, then it's a problem. That's my question - is that what people experience tracking their cars? As for Water Wetter, their affects are limited by PV=nRT. Despite their claims, they can only do so much based upon their limited chemistry over plain water.

Thanks for the heads up about Portland. I have reservations about Portland because its better for fast cars. I've experienced that with its 2 long straights, everyone will be passing Fiestas and then you'll be blocked by them in the turns when you're much faster in the tight stuff. That's why I was thinking more of the Ridge or Pacific Raceway. I might be mistaken. If you've run it and it's OK, let me know. I'll join you.

 

[meFiSTo]

I agree that probably a bigger radiator and intercooler are the answers. And, for brakes, ducting or big brake kits? I don't think it's the fluid or the pads, it's just a matter of mass and the ability to shed heat. Those that have experienced overheating brakes, do control arm duct vanes or hose ducts fix the problem? Or, do you need a big brake kit?

For engine overheat, if I get an occasional overheat warning on a road trip, it's probably not worth the investment to do anything. If I go to the track and only make 10 minutes out of a 20 minute session before I overheat, then it's a problem. That's my question - is that what people experience tracking their cars? As for Water Wetter, their affects are limited by PV=nRT. Despite their claims, they can only do so much based upon their limited chemistry over plain water.

Thanks for the heads up about Portland. I have reservations about Portland because its better for fast cars. I've experienced that with its 2 long straights, everyone will be passing Fiestas and then you'll be blocked by them in the turns when you're much faster in the tight stuff. That's why I was thinking more of the Ridge or Pacific Raceway. I might be mistaken. If you've run it and it's OK, let me know. I'll join you.

The 993 deflectors seemed to help on my old FWD car. I've never had to drop out of a session due to overheating or loss of braking bite (but I have only been to one event so far in this car). I only ever got fade with the stock pads on my SVT Focus. No issues in March with the Fiesta. I would turn off the ESC to limit auto-brake intervention.

Really not sure about the water wetter. I've not done water only. The water/water wetter combination definitely dropped my track day peak coolant temps. I think the big radiator will do a lot more to drop in-session temps.

I've never really had any problems with other cars at Portland. I usually drive in the intermediate groups there (my preference are Alfa and Lotus clubs). Passing/let by there is very easy. I keep an eye on my mirrors and watch for cars that are closing. I personally much prefer Portland over Pacific Raceways. It's easy to drive and relaxing. I always found Pacific Raceways to be tiring. I attended 30 PR events there between 2004 and 2011; i attended about 20 at Portland in that same period. I got tired of Pacific Raceways, not Portland. And: I saw a LOT of very bad accidents at PR -- a couple that were so bad that the track was shut down. i did hear they've done work in turn 8 to improve the surface (a big plus). And: It's close. My niece's husband is going to take his new Focus ST out with ProFormance for their 1-day class some time in the fall (his first HPDE, although he's done a couple of Dirt Fish days). I might join him for an afternoon lapping day when he does that.

As for next Friday. Still on the fence. If the weather is right, it'll help. I'm also getting some work done on the car, so it's possible I'll be kind of stuck between completion of that. It would have been done, but unfortunately there was an issue with some software that will require a certain amount of turn-time, so it won't be back by then. Sigh. I could hold off on doing some of the work and just get the track pads swapped back on and go as is. We'll see. If you're interested call Mark. Since you've not been to Portland before, you'll have to chat with him. There is no novice group with the Lotus guys and they provide no instruction.

 

[praecurvo]

Have you experienced fade on the OEM pads yet?

 

[meFiSTo]

Have you experienced fade on the OEM pads yet?

If you are asking me, I have never subject my stock pads to anything that would come close to brake fade. Really just around town. So, no data relevant data points here.

 

[praecurvo]

If you are asking me, I have never subject my stock pads to anything that would come close to brake fade. Really just around town. So, no data relevant data points here.

I should have been more intentional with my question, but thank you for the response. Was intended for the OP. However, since I have your attention, how are those Carbotech's on the street?

OP, I've heard of an instance where the Porterfield pads just don't hold up. Even those R4's which are made more for track purposes. Here in the Colorado Rockies, I've only had great success with the OEM pads both in the mountains and on track. With that said, I'm running 7 lap sessions. I'm not sure how many more laps I could get in before I needed to do some brake upgrades.

 

[meFiSTo]

I should have been more intentional with my question, but thank you for the response. Was intended for the OP. However, since I have your attention, how are those Carbotech's on the street?

OP, I've heard of an instance where the Porterfield pads just don't hold up. Even those R4's which are made more for track purposes. Here in the Colorado Rockies, I've only had great success with the OEM pads both in the mountains and on track. With that said, I'm running 7 lap sessions. I'm not sure how many more laps I could get in before I needed to do some brake upgrades.

LOL. No worries. I love Carbotech pads. I ran XP10s and XP8s on my old ride (a Powerworks, charge-air cooled SVT Focus) for about 7 years on the original calipers with never an issue. I started to slow down my rate of events at the end there (probably peaked about like 10-12 events a year in 2006-07ish). Dropped to 2 or 3 at the end in 2011. I'll probably do maybe 2 or 3 a year with the Fiesta, but heat is the enemy of a good time on a lapping day, so I'm doing a few things to mitigate its effects. I do NOT plan to get a big brake kit unless the stock hardware with stout pads/race fluid/teflon lines fails me (seems unlikely given my style of driving).

As to the way Carbotechs work: They are comparatively progressive, which for some takes a little acclimation. Often folks prefer massive initial bite. You don't get that with Carbotech pads (at least not in my experience), but their absolute braking power and resistance to fade is very good (IMHO). Carbotech also offers much more stout compounds than the XP8s that I'm using. We'll see if I need to step up to XP10s up front. I'm adding a bit of HP/TQ over stock and that might bump up the top end speed at the bottom of long straights just enough to warrant slightly more robust grip. TBD.

YMMV.

 

[Sourskittle]

Going to make a new thread about GTS routes !! Just used it for 42miles

Peak coolant temps? 243 degrees
90 degrees 90% humidity

 

[Sourskittle]

And.... 28psi. Lol

 

[ericr]

Have you experienced fade on the OEM pads yet?

No, I never ran the car that hard with the OEM pads. I just assumed that the R4's would have better heat and fade resistance (I've run them before on other cars). That would be great if the OEM pads are better, they definitely are cheaper.

 

[praecurvo]

The OEM pads have a great reputation, but not sure if they will work in your circumstances. If I ever added a lot more power and went to the track more often, I would get Carbotech XP8's. However, for jaunting around the Rocky Mountains and on the track for 5-7 lap sessions, the OEM's are stellar pads thus far.

 

[rodmoe]

The OEM pads have a great reputation, but not sure if they will work in your circumstances. If I ever added a lot more power and went to the track more often, I would get Carbotech XP8's. However, for jaunting around the Rocky Mountains and on the track for 5-7 lap sessions, the OEM's are stellar pads thus far.

This is good info and if you want to be lazy like me get the carbotech autoX pads or the pad below that and then xp 8 or what every XP compound you want as you need not rebed the pads when switching between brake pads and that allows you to use the same rotors helping to keep costs down too.. I did the XP10's for Road America and Loved how well they too the heat and abuse that track puts on brakes though I have my dust shields off all wheels and brake ducting to my fronts just to be safe.. Very happy with the stopping and fade resistence of the Carbotech pads. just my 2 cents