Clutch disc failure after engine replacement NOT COVERED?
- Thread starter OviV
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I actually had similiar happen to me in my 04 GTO. Was in an out of state accident, dealership called me told me the engine failed. (I said how? it was fine for a 600 mile trip when I had the accident, magically goes to your shop and now it failed?). I knew exactly what happened. I had it cammed, they didn't let the valves warm up, smashed the gas and the valve dropped. But they agreed to claim it under my extended warranty and say it was stock. So I didn't argue with them, because it wasn't worth the hassle, being out of state and everything.
Got the car back, 2 days later, went to downshift into 3rd on the highway, yes was getting on it. All the sound ping, pop. Clutch went to the floor, couldn't do anything.
Idiots didn't put the throw out bearing back in. :roolseyes: they paid for a rebuild.
Got the car back, 2 days later, went to downshift into 3rd on the highway, yes was getting on it. All the sound ping, pop. Clutch went to the floor, couldn't do anything.
Idiots didn't put the throw out bearing back in. :roolseyes: they paid for a rebuild.
Even if the clutch is only covered for 12k miles as a wear item that is not the issue here.
It was not a wear caused problem from all we can tell at this point with the information giving points to failed install causing a part failure.
A worn out disk, etc, would fall under the 12k mile warranty but they would of and should of called the owner and made arrangements to repair while the car was apart, thus negligence on their part.
It was not a wear caused problem from all we can tell at this point with the information giving points to failed install causing a part failure.
A worn out disk, etc, would fall under the 12k mile warranty but they would of and should of called the owner and made arrangements to repair while the car was apart, thus negligence on their part.
Agreed with previous comments. This is not a warranty claim in the sense that the part failed due to manufacturing error or user induced wear. This is a warranty issue regarding their labor. Our warranty covers parts and labor. Implied in that is a warranty that the workmanship itself is to be free from defects. This can be difficult to prove. But a visual inspection of the flywheel, clutch disc, and pressure plate should reveal obvious issues. Take a closer look at the springs on the clutch disc - is there any indication of wear on the spring itself? There shouldn't be! ... Unless installed backwards.
If you're met with roadblocks from Ford, an attorney or even yourself can make a case for res ipsa loquitur. Basically, a complete clutch disc (not merely clutch material) failure would not, in the ordinary course of events, have occurred unless someone has been negligent. Here, you have a repair that involved removal and reinstallation of the clutch done within a nominal number of miles before the clutch failure (compare the miles listed on repair order vs current mileage).
A clutch disc failure within xx miles of a repairman handling the clutch is an easy case to prove that on the basis of past experience and as a matter of general knowledge common to the automotive community, does not occur absent a mishandling of the clutch disc (aka negligence).
Sorry for all the legalese.
If you're met with roadblocks from Ford, an attorney or even yourself can make a case for res ipsa loquitur. Basically, a complete clutch disc (not merely clutch material) failure would not, in the ordinary course of events, have occurred unless someone has been negligent. Here, you have a repair that involved removal and reinstallation of the clutch done within a nominal number of miles before the clutch failure (compare the miles listed on repair order vs current mileage).
A clutch disc failure within xx miles of a repairman handling the clutch is an easy case to prove that on the basis of past experience and as a matter of general knowledge common to the automotive community, does not occur absent a mishandling of the clutch disc (aka negligence).
Sorry for all the legalese.
The easiest thing to do is to take a lot of pictures of the clutch disc, flywheel, and pressure plate and post them up. There's a lot of people on this board and across the web that could take one look at the damage and say it was caused by this or that.
For example this pic from .org shows damage that is popping up here and there
For example this pic from .org shows damage that is popping up here and there
Thread Starter
#27
UPDATE: Now dealer is offering to cover labor and I pay for parts. Not acceptable to me. Also, clutch is on national back order and they don't know when it will be available. They are also refusing to cover rental car. Going to dealer this morning to talk to service director and I want to see damage.
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As someone who DOES abuse the car and driveline, I can tell you... No way you did ANYTHING that could cause this clutch to fail under stock or even a couple bolt ons with a stock tune. If your clutch fails with 18k miles its because it was bad, or your 17 years old and just wore it out. Of course... If you wore it out, they would have seen that a few days ago, so its not worn out.
I'm telling you, NO AMOUNT OF ABUSE will cause this clutch to fail unless its build to a lesser standard than mine. I'm flat-foot shifting with bigger tires and 354ft. Lbs of torque at the wheels and the clutch is not failing or slipping. Even when the bigger turbo was installed making 250whp+ at redline and flat foot shifting, my 25-26k mile clutch has been flawless ( knock on my wood ).
That call to them letting them know the clutch was making noise should make ANYONE with reasonable logic understand it was an issue with the install. If the clutch was bad during engine replacement, they should have said something.
I'm a fairly well paid tech myself. We are NOT held accountable the way a ford tech or dealership tech would be, but my techs STILL try to slip out of any ownership of wrong doing. They refuse to own up to mistakes. They consistently side step responsibility or try to pass on fault to the operator, part supplier, or another tech. And these are well paided tech's WITHOUT a paying customer ( its a fairly large cooperation ). So the idea of a tech trying to deny fault or wrong doing is nothing new to me. The real issue is the dealership NOT STEPPING UP. As the employer, they assume responsibility for this tech and thing he may drop the ball on. They should do two things. Protect THEIR NAME, and FORD by getting all hands on deck and have senior techs (with the tech that screwed up ) get this car back on the road ASAP. The second thing they need to do is have someone figure out WHAT WENT WRONG, and have a class or meeting about what they found, how it happened, and how to make sure it never happens again. This adds value to every tech they have, provides customer service, and everyone is better for it at the cost of WHAT? $450 in ford parts cost and $300 in dealership labor, and you'd have pretty much a guarantee than no fiesta ST or fusion 1.6L manual trans would be scewed up again at your dealership. That's cheap education to me... But then again... I'm one of the rare techs that own my mistakes, point them out to others, and share my screw ups so that others may not suffer the same issue.
On the other hand.... When you pay guys peanuts to work on complex cars/trucks. You get what you pay for. There is a reason I don't work for Ford or any other dealership.
I would not accept anything else but them fixing the damn car COMPLETELY, on anyones dime but yours, WITH A RENTAL. The rental and the clutch being on back-order is likely the biggest issue.
Its un-real to me that your engine died, and now they are passing issues caused that repair onto you. I'm pissed off that someone else is doing that to someone else... No one is perfect, but at least own your mistakes, that's what being a man is.
I'm telling you, NO AMOUNT OF ABUSE will cause this clutch to fail unless its build to a lesser standard than mine. I'm flat-foot shifting with bigger tires and 354ft. Lbs of torque at the wheels and the clutch is not failing or slipping. Even when the bigger turbo was installed making 250whp+ at redline and flat foot shifting, my 25-26k mile clutch has been flawless ( knock on my wood ).
That call to them letting them know the clutch was making noise should make ANYONE with reasonable logic understand it was an issue with the install. If the clutch was bad during engine replacement, they should have said something.
I'm a fairly well paid tech myself. We are NOT held accountable the way a ford tech or dealership tech would be, but my techs STILL try to slip out of any ownership of wrong doing. They refuse to own up to mistakes. They consistently side step responsibility or try to pass on fault to the operator, part supplier, or another tech. And these are well paided tech's WITHOUT a paying customer ( its a fairly large cooperation ). So the idea of a tech trying to deny fault or wrong doing is nothing new to me. The real issue is the dealership NOT STEPPING UP. As the employer, they assume responsibility for this tech and thing he may drop the ball on. They should do two things. Protect THEIR NAME, and FORD by getting all hands on deck and have senior techs (with the tech that screwed up ) get this car back on the road ASAP. The second thing they need to do is have someone figure out WHAT WENT WRONG, and have a class or meeting about what they found, how it happened, and how to make sure it never happens again. This adds value to every tech they have, provides customer service, and everyone is better for it at the cost of WHAT? $450 in ford parts cost and $300 in dealership labor, and you'd have pretty much a guarantee than no fiesta ST or fusion 1.6L manual trans would be scewed up again at your dealership. That's cheap education to me... But then again... I'm one of the rare techs that own my mistakes, point them out to others, and share my screw ups so that others may not suffer the same issue.
On the other hand.... When you pay guys peanuts to work on complex cars/trucks. You get what you pay for. There is a reason I don't work for Ford or any other dealership.
I would not accept anything else but them fixing the damn car COMPLETELY, on anyones dime but yours, WITH A RENTAL. The rental and the clutch being on back-order is likely the biggest issue.
Its un-real to me that your engine died, and now they are passing issues caused that repair onto you. I'm pissed off that someone else is doing that to someone else... No one is perfect, but at least own your mistakes, that's what being a man is.
I'm guessing they are offering labor for free because the powers that be at the dealership know their tech was a likely cause of the clutch failure. And they want you to pay for it because they know they can't submit a warranty claim on your clutch to Ford and they don't want to pay the clutch cost.
Make sure they know your fellow ST owners are paying close attention to this as well.
If no parts are available make them tell you what the ETA is on them in writing or on the computer screen.
If not done go look at the parts but take the part numbers with you and check them yourself as very unlikely they have more damaged ST clutch parts on hand you want to ensure they are not showing parts from some other car
Another option, split the cost with them and get an aftermarket disk and PP if one is made to suite your needs, so you can get your car back you are paying to use instead of waiting for them while they are playing BS games.
If no parts are available make them tell you what the ETA is on them in writing or on the computer screen.
If not done go look at the parts but take the part numbers with you and check them yourself as very unlikely they have more damaged ST clutch parts on hand you want to ensure they are not showing parts from some other car
Another option, split the cost with them and get an aftermarket disk and PP if one is made to suite your needs, so you can get your car back you are paying to use instead of waiting for them while they are playing BS games.
That helps a great deal but also makes things a bit harder to pin down as Rodmoe mentioned it could be from three different issues and it would of been easier to overlook in a rushed swap if it was already starting to fail, which if the mechanic was being paid by the book likely did.......
From the picture the lining does not look like it had long term abuse making it look more like one of the first two he listed.
Test driver abuse could of happened. I sure know they do not all treat customers cars appropriately though many of these clutches have been punished greatly for many miles and not failed.
From just this picture I would vote on it being defective, if we could see the other side of the disk, the surfaces on the flywheel and PP, and much harder to determine evidence of the PP not clamped down flush or not....which certainly could of caused this.....
From the picture the lining does not look like it had long term abuse making it look more like one of the first two he listed.
Test driver abuse could of happened. I sure know they do not all treat customers cars appropriately though many of these clutches have been punished greatly for many miles and not failed.
From just this picture I would vote on it being defective, if we could see the other side of the disk, the surfaces on the flywheel and PP, and much harder to determine evidence of the PP not clamped down flush or not....which certainly could of caused this.....
I'm guessing that Ford bought a bad batch of discs from their supplier. The center hub section is where the most load is applied, si it has to be the most "robust" section. IMO, the heat-treatment was done incorrectly and made the hub too brittle. There have been a few that failed in service with no other problems and my educated guess says that when the trans is mated at the factory and during the OP repair action it cracked the disc hub and it failed in subsequent service.
It is unfortunate that consumers get screwed over when someone makes an error along the way with manufacturing a component, but it happens. A clutch is the most abused item in any manual shift car, so EVERY dealer/OEM is highly suspicious of a "failed" clutch under warranty. In over 50 years of driving, I've only had ONE clutch to fail (slip excessively) in a new car under warranty. It was also a Ford and my daughter's first new car, a 1998 ZX2. She was NOT an abusive driver and I negotiated with the dealer and insisted they drive the car with me in it and accelerate at WOT to observe the clutch slipping. They replaced the clutch and resurfaced the flywheel due to the overheated spots, all under warranty. It may have helped that I had already purchased 3 vehicles from the dealer involved.
In this case, I recommend the OP accept their offer of clutch replacement labor and purchase an aftermarket clutch for them to install for free. If you have the $$$, also go with an aftermarket flywheel to get rid of the OEM Ford dual-mass flywheel. They're simply a problem waiting to happen in later mileage.
My OEM clutch is still fine with significant "abuse" (~10,000 miles now with Cobb Stage 3), but I have a light flywheel and 6-puck clutch coming from Pumaspeed (UK) and will install it along with the PierceMotorsport upper and lower front bars; 3R Front Splitter; Koni yellows, Eibach bars, Quaife LSD, Seibon CF hood, etc.
It is unfortunate that consumers get screwed over when someone makes an error along the way with manufacturing a component, but it happens. A clutch is the most abused item in any manual shift car, so EVERY dealer/OEM is highly suspicious of a "failed" clutch under warranty. In over 50 years of driving, I've only had ONE clutch to fail (slip excessively) in a new car under warranty. It was also a Ford and my daughter's first new car, a 1998 ZX2. She was NOT an abusive driver and I negotiated with the dealer and insisted they drive the car with me in it and accelerate at WOT to observe the clutch slipping. They replaced the clutch and resurfaced the flywheel due to the overheated spots, all under warranty. It may have helped that I had already purchased 3 vehicles from the dealer involved.
In this case, I recommend the OP accept their offer of clutch replacement labor and purchase an aftermarket clutch for them to install for free. If you have the $$$, also go with an aftermarket flywheel to get rid of the OEM Ford dual-mass flywheel. They're simply a problem waiting to happen in later mileage.
My OEM clutch is still fine with significant "abuse" (~10,000 miles now with Cobb Stage 3), but I have a light flywheel and 6-puck clutch coming from Pumaspeed (UK) and will install it along with the PierceMotorsport upper and lower front bars; 3R Front Splitter; Koni yellows, Eibach bars, Quaife LSD, Seibon CF hood, etc.
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