Daily drivers with performance

[antarctica24]

Have you had your timing belt done yet?

I am so sorry about that my friend, I have not. Actually up until my upgrades I had not changed or replaced anything except the oil every 2000 miles, and at 100,000 I did the plugs, coolant, Tammy fluid about every 35,000 - 50,000 or so. Same clutch, oh yeah and the tires and pads for the brakes. The timing belt from what we can see still looks good. I have had some thoughts about replacing the coolant hoses but so far I have not smelt any coolant leaks. Everything under the car is bone dry and on top as well. I would assume at some point I am going to have to replace a head gasket or gaskets and I would think at some point some crank and rod bearings and rings. But compression seems to be holding.

On a side note regarding my increase in power just bolting on the fmic, exhaust, Velossa bm, and cai, I had said I thought a majority of that increase came from the exhaust and according to MAP website their testing shows the same. I know dyn085 and hijinx dont believe that's possible but it did happen and the companies testing did confirm. As for any gains from the cai or big mouth or fmic I am willing to defer to dyn085's good judgement. As they claim to know that this is a MAP based tune and would not benefit from just bolting on a Cai. I so love you guys.

 

[twolf]

Being tuned now you'll go through plugs more quickly, at least that seems to be the general experience.


These engines are interference engines (I think?), I would really not take a chance with the timing belt.

 

[Alex@Stratified]

The US 5 door ECU is completely Speed Density based. That means MAP sensor based and both the TIP and MAP sensors are used. The MAF sensor is simply used as a temperature sensor in the intake. The 3 door non US Fiesta STs have a completely different ECU operating system and they DO use the MAF sensor for airflow readings.

The car calculates the mass airflow you can datalog using the MAP sensors. It uses a complex HDFX system that Ford has patented for determining the airflow entering the engine. The MAP pressure signals, engine speed, camshaft positions, volumes of manifold and intercooler, turbocharger/engine modelling, temperatures, barometric readings are all used to determine that final airflow number which is then used to determine fuelling, load, timing.

 

[twolf]

[MENTION=4300]Alex@Stratified[/MENTION] so when we add bigger intercoolers, how does that play in? For example, my IC is nearly 3x the volume of stock... that seems like it should throw off any calculation that involves IC/manifold volume?

 

[Alex@Stratified]

[MENTION=4300]Alex@Stratified[/MENTION] so when we add bigger intercoolers, how does that play in? For example, my IC is nearly 3x the volume of stock... that seems like it should throw off any calculation that involves IC/manifold volume?

It does throw the modelling off some but not a big amount for intercooler volume. Everything you do airflow wise will affect the model - some things a lot more than others. A bigger turbo throws it off a lot more than an upgraded intercooler. Also keep in mind that on top of the model the car does have feedback sensors that learn. The wideband and knock sensors both feed back into the loop and the ECU has learned trims for both to make adjustments. This is also needed as the engine ages and reality once again deviates from the model.

 

[twolf]

It does throw the modelling off some but not a big amount for intercooler volume. Everything you do airflow wise will affect the model - some things a lot more than others. A bigger turbo throws it off a lot more than an upgraded intercooler. Also keep in mind that on top of the model the car does have feedback sensors that learn. The wideband and knock sensors both feed back into the loop and the ECU has learned trims for both to make adjustments. This is also needed as the engine ages and reality once again deviates from the model.

In the case of the bigger turbo, what are the real world implications of throwing the modeling off?

This is all super interesting to me, glad to have you guys around the forums.

 

[Alex@Stratified]

In the case of the bigger turbo, what are the real world implications of throwing the modeling off?

This is all super interesting to me, glad to have you guys around the forums.

Simply put, the car won't run right. Boost control/load control, fuelling, and timing will be off. These have to be re-calibrated and this is what a tune will do.

 

[twolf]

Simply put, the car won't run right. Boost control/load control, fuelling, and timing will be off. These have to be re-calibrated and this is what a tune will do.

oh, okay, that's what I was getting at.

Was unsure if it was something that could be 100% solved with a tune, or if there would be little quirks because of the HDFX system you mentioned being thrown off.

 

[dyn085]

oh, okay, that's what I was getting at.

Was unsure if it was something that could be 100% solved with a tune, or if there would be little quirks because of the HDFX system you mentioned being thrown off.

You can change the VE of the HDFX pairs, which is mostly driven from your fuel trims along with a little math. Cobb actually has a decent VE workbook that walks you through the process decently. A little intimidating at first but really simple once you've done it a couple of times.

Until you go BT there's no real need to make VE adjustments because bolt ons don't throw the VE off enough to really matter, but it's a fun exercise to try and is necessary to learn if you intend on self-tuning a BT. I created a relatively simple process for doing it, maybe someday I'll create a thread for it.

 

[OffTheWall503]

 

[Wimp Lo]

This thread is good for some laughs.

Speed density has come a long way since 1986. Back in 1986 central port fuel injection was common, now we have direct injection and ECUs with easily 100x the compute power to do the complex fuel injection calculations that an automotive engineer could only dream of in 1986. The sensors are a lot better too with better elements and some times calibration ASICs that can create near perfect linearity.

A lot of the high horsepower cars mentioned here are not exactly cutting edge in the engine control department. That is part of their charm, making their tuning use an existing knowledge base.

We are lucky that our cars are both cutting edge and have tuning tools available. That is one reason why I bought mine. I think we are maybe 2 generations away from a really ideal tuneable EcoBoost engine but our 1.6 is pretty darn good. It would be even better with a timing chain and higher flow injectors to be ready for high boost E85 tunes without aux fuel.

 

[antarctica24]

The US 5 door ECU is completely Speed Density based. That means MAP sensor based and both the TIP and MAP sensors are used. The MAF sensor is simply used as a temperature sensor in the intake. The 3 door non US Fiesta STs have a completely different ECU operating system and they DO use the MAF sensor for airflow readings.

The car calculates the mass airflow you can datalog using the MAP sensors. It uses a complex HDFX system that Ford has patented for determining the airflow entering the engine. The MAP pressure signals, engine speed, camshaft positions, volumes of manifold and intercooler, turbocharger/engine modelling, temperatures, barometric readings are all used to determine that final airflow number which is then used to determine fuelling, load, timing.

Alex, Thank you that is good information. I finally got a call back from Craig at FEV. He is putting me in touch with the engineer who developed the PCM for the Ecoboost motors. I will post my finding from him once he calls me back.

 

[twolf]

I hope you're paying the dude to waste time out of his day answering dumb questions.

 

[Wimp Lo]

Your finding should be: try listening when a bunch of people keep telling you the same thing.

Not all things are the same, change is constant.

 

[Hijinx]

Alex, Thank you that is good information. I finally got a call back from Craig at FEV. He is putting me in touch with the engineer who developed the PCM for the Ecoboost motors. I will post my finding from him once he calls me back.

Fraud, waste, and abuse.

 

[antarctica24]

Fraud, waste, and abuse.

You know, you and wolf and dyn085 are like 6th graders who have not had enough nap time. Wtf do you care? I'll post it when I get wrong or not. Then you can gloat but I would not my breath. If they were only using the MAF for temp they could have just installed another map sensor because it reads temp as well.

The only two here in the long drawn out conversation that have any practical tuning experience are myself and dyn085. Go get two pieces of really thick wood and take your panties off place them between the wood so you you can get wad out.

Every time you throw out a comment without any personal experience your just making yourself look like a....well you'll figure it out.

 

[twolf]

I'm pretty sure it's a MAF because the UK cars use a MAF.

 

[Hijinx]

You know, you and wolf and dyn085 are like 6th graders who have not had enough nap time. Wtf do you care? I'll post it when I get wrong or not. Then you can gloat but I would not my breath. If they were only using the MAF for temp they could have just installed another map sensor because it reads temp as well.

The only two here in the long drawn out conversation that have any practical tuning experience are myself and dyn085. Go get two pieces of really thick wood and take your panties off place them between the wood so you you can get wad out.

Every time you throw out a comment without any personal experience your just making yourself look like a....well you'll figure it out.

If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know is. If you really want to know, I care because there's enough misinformation going about already.

 

[antarctica24]

If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know is. If you really want to know, I care because there's enough misinformation going about already.

Well come on then. This is no skin off your back. Let's just give it couple of days and see what they come back with. I agree that there is way to much disinformation going around. I am willing to admit the possibility that I am wrong. It wouldn't be he first time and certain it won't be the last. But I think getting the information from the people who created it might be useful not to mention if there was ever anything else we ever needed we might have a useful sorce. Dyn085 has done a lot of good work mapping out a lot of stuff with this motor.

One thing to look at though is the other guy said the regular fiesta is using MAF. From an engineering standpoint it would absolutely dumb to change technologies between models and cost ineffective. But that is neither here nor there.

Let's stop with the name calling and smart ass comments like the one I made and just chill out. There is no time wasted in asking an expert and they were very happy to offer. They just said I might get called at 10:30 at night but I would get a call back. I'm using the information for a paper I'm writing for one of my classes on fuel injection management so I needed the interview anyway.

 

[twolf]

No, I said the UK Fiesta ST uses a MAF. To the best of my knowledge, an intake from a US Fiesta will fit a UK and vice versa.

I could be wrong, and I'm willing to admit that.