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Swaybar guidance

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Perris
#1
Hello guys !
Beginner here with 2 track days 1 at big willow and another at streets and 3 days at adams.

My question is should I remove the front sway bar and go back to stock for better cornering performance?
Now i will be getting corner balanced in the next 2 weeks but wanted some advice from the experience track guys if should remove it before getting corner balanced at chewerks
My build is just for HPDE and weekend fun no competition in mind.


asking because when I was at streets of willow for the gridlife event the car felt like it did not want to rotate as much as I though it would.

Or is it that i am wrong completely? lol
at the time i was on swift springs instead of the 510s.



Build so far:

ENGINE:
whoosh intake with crossover
whoosh v1 intercooler
TS wastegate
whoosh Hi flow hot side pipe and silicone hoses
whoosh catted dp
greddy exhaust
TS dual port
radium catch can
mountune radiator
rear motor mount
1 step colder plugs
dizzy tuned 91/e30

Suspension:
FA 510s/ swift springs 7k/6k
Hardrace control arms
Swave and summit endlinks
eibach sway bars front and rear
6 point brace
rear camber plates

Brakes:
wavespec rotors all around
yellow stuff pads all around
whoosh brake lines
motul 600 break fluid

Tires and Wheels
TD 1.2S 15x8
NT05 205/50
 


Dpro

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#2
ok first what year is your car? If it is a 16 and up it has a large swaybar stock. You really do not need to put a front bar on our cars especially with coilovers so ya I would take that off. The stock front 21 mm are fine. Rear camber plates will raise the breakway point in the rear. After I put mine on I noticed that and added a rear swaybar and experience high speed sudden oversteer in corner. i.e. unintentional rotation.
You ca play with tire pressure in the rear for rotation as well. I also feel that 205/50. NT05 is not a great tire or size. If you are running 8‘s you should put some 225‘s on there.
 


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jeffreylyon

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#3
Big changes will likely result in big results. Before you make a big change like making changes to front and rear roll stiffness get a better idea of what is going on. I’d suggest buying a pyrometer to measure tire temps. You might find that you need to make adjustments to pressure or front camber to place the car right where you want it. Also, 6K on the rear seems soft for 7K up front.

Edit: I take back my comment about spring rates - I was thinking of a different platform.
 


Last edited:
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#4
Bottom line …. Comes down to what you want out of the car.

Bigger front sway bars tighten the car. A smaller bar will loosen it up (less understeer).

Some folks remove or disconnect it entirely, which really frees it up - I disconnected it on one side this last track day (on a recommendation), and I liked it enough that I will probably take the time to pull the whole bar out at some point over the winter.
 


OP
HABANERO_ST
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Thread Starter #5
My car is a 2015
and i will be moving up to 225/45/15 rt660 once once i run through these.
Yea i did notice my tire wear was towards the sidewall of the tires, so you are probably right in needing more camber up front.

Cool thanks guys
 


jeffreylyon

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#6
My car is a 2015
and i will be moving up to 225/45/15 rt660 once once i run through these.
Yea i did notice my tire wear was towards the sidewall of the tires, so you are probably right in needing more camber up front.

Cool thanks guys
Wear towards the outside sidewall means that you're not running enough pressure or way too little camber. Chalk the tires and measure temps!
 


OP
HABANERO_ST
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Thread Starter #9
we run the base fiesta 21mm bar on our track car with 10F/11R springs. Also run a rear beam reinforcing bar out back to adjust rear stiffness. Tried a stiffer front bar and got a bunch more understeer so went back to the 21mm bar.
ok looks like ill be removing the front bar
 


jeffreylyon

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#10
If you remove the front bar without doing something in the rear you're going to end up with a dangerous car. If you do anything without establishing some objective baseline, e.g. tire temps, you're going to be chasing blindly. I believe that @Woods247 runs Einbach anti-sway bars on both ends and is very happy with his setup.

You might be a degree of negative camber and a wee bit of toe-out from your perfect setup.
 


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#11
Ehhhh. I have both a sway bar and and a torsion bar out back, as well as very stiff springs …. and I have the front sway bar disconnected. Comes down to what you want out of the car, but calling it “dangerous” is a gross overstatement
 


jeffreylyon

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#12
Ehhhh. I have both a sway bar and and a torsion bar out back, as well as very stiff springs …. and I have the front sway bar disconnected. Comes down to what you want out of the car, but calling it “dangerous” is a gross overstatement
Making such a huge change in a track car, especially one that might drastically increase oversteer is dangerous. Getting to the same point with smallish adjustments or making such a huge change and, then, looping it on an A/C course and killing a family of cones is a different story.

The OP is looking for a small change: "the car felt like it did not want to rotate as much as I though it would" and is a new-ish driver. He's got more camber dialed into the rear and doesn't mention his front alignment. The last thing he should do is make such a drastic change.
 


green_henry

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#13
It never even occurred to me to mess with the front sway bar. I have a Hodgkis rear sway bar, and it works great. Handling is very predictable, and relatively neutral imho.
 


Woods247

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#14
My car is a 2015
and i will be moving up to 225/45/15 rt660 once once i run through these.
Yea i did notice my tire wear was towards the sidewall of the tires, so you are probably right in needing more camber up front.

Cool thanks guys
Yeah sounds like you could benefit from a more aggressive alignment for the track and maybe play with suspension settings (few clicks stiffer in the rear than front) and maybe a little more hot psi in the rear too depending on what the tire wear and surface temps look like. Try -3 up front with zero toe and see how that feels. Some drivers like a little + or - toe but I prefer zero. I find -3 to work pretty well at most of the tracks I frequent too and it won’t kill your tires too quickly if you’re driving to/from the track on highways.

I’ve run with and without sway bars and prefer the Eibachs. For me, my car is more predictable and comfortable at higher speeds with them. My buddy (who’s also fast) runs without them. It’s just personal preference I guess. I’m a very smooth driver and his inputs are more aggressive. He insisted I try lapping without bars, so I did. I hated it.. I spend a lot of time over 100mph so for me, sway bars made my car more suitable to my driving inputs at those speeds. Don’t trust the internet though.. Just drop the rear and unhook the front end links and see what you think after you get your camber and alignment dialed in.

Also, my torsion beam shifts out of alignment and has to be manhandled with pry bars to make it “square” with the front wheels again. When it’s out even the slightest bit, it makes my car handle like shit. Especially under heavy high speed braking.. Does anyone else’s do that?? It’s got to be from curb strikes and man it sucks. I need to find a way to permanently fix that.
 


Dialcaliper

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#15
It all depends on what you want out of the car. I initially tried a 22mm Hotchkiss rear bar and found the car way too loose combined with the early 19mm front bar that was on it. Going into a corner, the rear would break loose unless I had at least light throttle at corner entry (when I'd rather be late braking).

Just finished upgrading to a 22mm (7/8") Ultra Racing front bar meant for a Mk6 Fiesta (fits perfectly by the way - clocks in about 25% stiffer than the 21mm bar), and the car is much closer to the way I want it - it still has mild to moderate oversteer (more than stock) and the rear still rotates when want it to, but the rear end doesn't break loose. The Front/Rear balance now is roughly equivalent to a 21mm front bar + 19mm rear bar.

I looked into the Eibach front bar, but personally, I think going up to 25mm is way too stiff for this car (Numerically, it's 2x as stiff as the 21mm Fiesta bar and 3x as stiff as the 19mm bar), and will push the car to understeer even with a pretty beefy rear bar. You might be able to counter it by doubling up bars in the rear, but you lose a lot of independent droop travel - maybe okay for a track rat, but problematic on the street and backroads. Then again, some people prefer a little understeer on a FWD car, and just use heavier steering input rather than adding a little throttle understeer to the mix.

If it makes any difference, I have more of a "smooth is fast" style, while others go for more aggressive inputs. I also detest the angry throttle mapping on the Stratified tune, but others love it.

@Woods247 Have you checked your rear beam/subframe pivot bushings? Could be either a cracked rubber bushing, or if you've replaced it already, a rounded out poly bushing. The rear bushings aren't coaxial so they rely on being able to flex for some of the rear motion.
 


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#16
Making such a huge change in a track car, especially one that might drastically increase oversteer is dangerous. Getting to the same point with smallish adjustments or making such a huge change and, then, looping it on an A/C course and killing a family of cones is a different story.

The OP is looking for a small change: "the car felt like it did not want to rotate as much as I though it would" and is a new-ish driver. He's got more camber dialed into the rear and doesn't mention his front alignment. The last thing he should do is make such a drastic change.
Okay, sure, bud. “Dangerous.”

You do you.
 


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#17
Also, my torsion beam shifts out of alignment and has to be manhandled with pry bars to make it “square” with the front wheels again. When it’s out even the slightest bit, it makes my car handle like shit. Especially under heavy high speed braking.. Does anyone else’s do that?? It’s got to be from curb strikes and man it sucks. I need to find a way to permanently fix that.
I have an all you can eat alignment plan, so I am constantly on the rack. For some reason, on the alignment rack, my right/rear always shows with much more toe out …. Sometimes even out of spec.

I have replaced the rear beam, both hubs, and upgraded the bushings to poly race durometer. I even tried using the slop in the bolt holes to move the whole assembly, but it goes where it wants when you torque it down.

I have sort of accepted it.
 


Woods247

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#18
I have an all you can eat alignment plan, so I am constantly on the rack. For some reason, on the alignment rack, my right/rear always shows with much more toe out …. Sometimes even out of spec.

I have replaced the rear beam, both hubs, and upgraded the bushings to poly race durometer. I even tried using the slop in the bolt holes to move the whole assembly, but it goes where it wants when you torque it down.

I have sort of accepted it.
Ah ok. It's just a quality thing I suppose. I'm interested to see what it looks like when we string it next month.
 


OP
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Thread Starter #19
Yea thanks for all the inputs, as for alignment I’m set to go to chewerks this Friday 10/7, so I’ll get some number than.
Aaa for the coilovers they haven’t seen any track days just about 100 miles of mild driving. so I’m gonna start around the half way point and see what I need to adjust.
And I do want to go for the smooth is fast style if driving.

I’ll also be taking tire temps as recommended. And start keeping a track of what adjustments I am making.
I’ll be at streets on the 29th.

.
 


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