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The new car sales games dealers play......

Dpro

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#21
I will say this after private cash and rebates and dealer discount , I got my ordered 18 Orange Spice Smoke Storm Recaro Ebony wheel red brakes for $19678 before tax and lic. $5400 off sticker. I did not worry about the doc fees, etc...
I had researched prices enough to know I was getting a good deal and I did not need to spend time trying to knock off another $500.

Especially with what these cars were selling for on the West Coast. Take away my options and the car would have been $16,700 for a base model. Thats dirt cheap in California.
Also did not get hung up on monthly payments focused in final price witth as much minimal haggle as possible. In my case pretty much no haggle.

I had spent time talking to dealers long distance as well in the end it served me well to go to a local SoCal dealer and order exactly what I wanted and working with the Fleet Manager was a breeze. Maybe an hour to 90. minutes total between placing order and picking car up,at the dealership. 4k down and Financed on my own tax and lic paid separately at signing of papers.
 


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#22
If the price of a motor vehicle or recreational vehicle is advertised, the advertisement:
1. Shall include in the advertised price all costs and charges and any additional fees
payable by the purchaser of the vehicle advertised.
2. Shall separately describe any additional fee includable under (a)(1) of this
paragraph, and state clearly and conspicuously the amount thereof.

In simple terms what they print plus taxes is your total price. In some states ads have real numbers.......not that it means they have the car, it will be sold or was not on the truck!

I set a price I will pay and either get it or walk, about a 5% markup over actual invoice found on the internet NOT supplied by the dealer is what I shoot for and get, make take 2, 3 or more dealers but I accept each dealer has their own overhead. I don't haggle over fees, I don't even talk about them to open the door to haggling. Using multiple dealers you can get a fair price but must be armed with the data and be willing to walk away. Or just trust a dealer, the salesmen are professionals trained to make sure you don't spend a penny more than you need to get the car. LOL.

BTW, just heard on my wifes drive home the PBS radio station had a special program........on new car dealer phony "doc" fees! She was cracking up after getting her feet wet in this negotiation.
You’re still hung up on the fees....

If dealer A’s price is $20k plus taxes, and dealers B’s price is $18.5k, plus freight, plus doc fee totaling $20k....does it really matter?

Sure it is shady, and they’re hoping to lure you in at a better price and then add in the fees, but again if you are an informed buyer...does it matter.

If it is a matter of principle for you, then by all means take your dollars elsewhere...but to me it the same thing.
 


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#23
I learned my lesson about buying a car out of state. My Fiesta ST was bought out of state and it basically screwed me with the lemon law.
 


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King George
#24
The 528 mile truck I sold stickered at 64955. Internet price was something like 51636 plus tax tags processing (799) freight (1695) and dealer prep (1295). Even with the “bs” fees we were at $60317 otd for NY. Guy shopped 10ish dealers. We were the cheapest. Yes our crazy low pricing attracted him as he wasn’t familiar with this area’s pricing style, but at the end of the day we were still the cheapest, even with all the crap I have to add back. It was a truck that another dealer traded to us for one they needed. And we didn’t have holdback.. for all the “informed” buyers out there, if it’s not in our dealer group we don’t get holdback. It was a net 3200 loser.
 


dmb

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#25
everyone, ''can't we all just get along'' we could have nothing but Trabant's and you had to know someone to get one. and you would be happy.
 


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jmrtsus

jmrtsus

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Thread Starter #26
jmrtsus,

I think the problem you have in your assessment and trying to pass on knowledge is that you’re focusing on the wrong thing. Like Blown said, you will pay the “fee” any way you slice it, it just depends on what you want to call it. When you look the whole deal, I don’t care what they call profit.

I just bought my 2019 FiST (#2, I had a 2014 as well) so I have recently gone through the whole rigmarole. Focusing on fees as the boogey man is just as bad as focusing on payment. You have to look at the whole deal (including trade if applicable) and be informed. Dealerships will make money, that is the whole purpose. To think you are going to “win” or “save money” at a dealer is the first mistake. Going in with that mentality is the wrong approach.

Sure some dealers games are worse than others, but if you are informed, willing to walk, and respectful I find that usually you will be treated the same way.
That is the whole point, the fees are just part of the ASKING price. They are not a mandatory charge like the dealer wants you to believe. You do not have to pay the asking price. A dealer will get what they need to stay in business or they will not make a sale but if you buy the routine you have to pay fake fees you have surrendered that bargaining room by that amount. Reduce your offer by those fees and stick to it. Every car deal is different.....no doubt. If you think you cannot save money you definitely will not. I have never "won" a deal, we reach a compromise like all car sales. I don't play by dealers old time rules nor do I have unreasonable expectations on prices. If that were the case I couldn't buy 4 new Fords in 3 years. All that matters is if you are happy with the price and terms and the dealer sold you the car it was a good deal to both. I'm just harder to please on price than others. No law says they have to sell at my price, they make that decision, but they do. Or people can trust the dealer........
 


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#27
Wow. You sound like a real bundle of joy. Although I'm not in the industry, I was, for a time, years back. A number of things you "believe" to be true, are (as the other 2 or more fellas mentioned), incorrect. But hey, as long as you believe them, than it must be true, right? haha.

That being said, sure, everyone wants a stellar deal. When I found out there was a $3K rebate on my 17 Fist, we worked the numbers a bit more, and I financed at a reasonable rate. Who on earth, puts forward the effort to waste other peoples time? Not this guy, life is wayyy too short, and so many fun things to do, like Octane Academy.

Hey btw, 2 major reasons why a new car "may" have miles on it: 1) already answered, some dealers don't flat-bed trades between dealers, so some mileage can accrue.
2) It's not bc employees are "joy-riding the car", that could easily constitute a firing. The reason is, because customers often want to Test Drive a particular car, and after a few test drives, their is your hundred or two hundred miles. Not really such a horrible thing, people test driving cars, it's not like they weren't discounting the car, considerable. Yet, if putting dealers against dealers makes you happy, and believe this is "fun", than run with it. You probable have, and will always be, a tool.
 


Dpro

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#28
Wow. You sound like a real bundle of joy. Although I'm not in the industry, I was, for a time, years back. A number of things you "believe" to be true, are (as the other 2 or more fellas mentioned), incorrect. But hey, as long as you believe them, than it must be true, right? haha.

That being said, sure, everyone wants a stellar deal. When I found out there was a $3K rebate on my 17 Fist, we worked the numbers a bit more, and I financed at a reasonable rate. Who on earth, puts forward the effort to waste other peoples time? Not this guy, life is wayyy too short, and so many fun things to do, like Octane Academy.

Hey btw, 2 major reasons why a new car "may" have miles on it: 1) already answered, some dealers don't flat-bed trades between dealers, so some mileage can accrue.
2) It's not bc employees are "joy-riding the car", that could easily constitute a firing. The reason is, because customers often want to Test Drive a particular car, and after a few test drives, their is your hundred or two hundred miles. Not really such a horrible thing, people test driving cars, it's not like they weren't discounting the car, considerable. Yet, if putting dealers against dealers makes you happy, and believe this is "fun", than run with it. You probable have, and will always be, a tool.

Most of what you write above is true but there really is nothing wrong with pitting dealers against each other its actually a recommend thing to do most consumer advocates and car buying tip blogs etc..
Like car salesman trying to sell cars customers have pitted dealers against each other since the dawn of car sales.
Its my job as the consumer to get the best deal however I can its the car salesmans job to get the most money out of me that he can. If we can reach a happy medium a deal can be usually had with ease like my deal. Where I got the price thanks to Ford giving enough rebstes and private cash offers that the dealer still made his money but it was piad to him by Ford instead of me.
Even my Fleet Manager commented on the fact that he had never seen 5k worth of discounts on a car this inexpensive to start.
I walked on two dealers because they tried to A:play old school sales game tactics B: tried to sell me what was on the lot not what I really wanted i.e. reluctant to make an order and B: if doing said order would promise me they would honor the rebates. Which I found out later from my Fleet Manager they could do, as he did it on my car!
Its was pretty much why the largest volume Ford dealer in the world did not get my business purchase wise but do get my business service wise because they have a performance department and are mod friendly.
 


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jmrtsus

jmrtsus

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Thread Starter #29
Wow. You sound like a real bundle of joy. Although I'm not in the industry, I was, for a time, years back. A number of things you "believe" to be true, are (as the other 2 or more fellas mentioned), incorrect. But hey, as long as you believe them, than it must be true, right? haha.

That being said, sure, everyone wants a stellar deal. When I found out there was a $3K rebate on my 17 Fist, we worked the numbers a bit more, and I financed at a reasonable rate. Who on earth, puts forward the effort to waste other peoples time? Not this guy, life is wayyy too short, and so many fun things to do, like Octane Academy.

Hey btw, 2 major reasons why a new car "may" have miles on it: 1) already answered, some dealers don't flat-bed trades between dealers, so some mileage can accrue.
2) It's not bc employees are "joy-riding the car", that could easily constitute a firing. The reason is, because customers often want to Test Drive a particular car, and after a few test drives, their is your hundred or two hundred miles. Not really such a horrible thing, people test driving cars, it's not like they weren't discounting the car, considerable. Yet, if putting dealers against dealers makes you happy, and believe this is "fun", than run with it. You probable have, and will always be, a tool.
When the dealership management admits to joyriding I don't need all the possible valid reasons a car has miles on it. If you knew anything about the car we were talking about I might value your opinion. But you obviously know jack about why you should run from a Coyote engine that has been abused early. Educate yourself and learn why. I love how people like you think donating money you don't have to give a dealer is wonderful. no balls to negotiate is your problem not mine. Go for it yourself. I am not that dumb with my money. So please donate. The problem seems to be some people do not have the gonads to stand up to a dealer so they wimp out and pay it. Then try to justify it, LOL! Not my problem, it's your money. You know what they say about fools and money. I'll keep mine thank you. So you even admit you don't shop prices.....really? And you want to give advice on buying a car? It would appear you don't even have a clue how to buy a car without getting ripped off. Sad.
 


Ford ST

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#30
I probably wouldn't buy a new Coyote engine at this point. Well maybe I would I mean you get a new engine if something goes wrong with it. The Internet is just filled with these engines and the piston slap issue, and I know a lot of people are very unhappy with that. Honestly I believe Ford will be replacing a lot engines.
I know you've done your research and you already know all these things, I'm just saying my opinion on it.
If you are extremely worried about the abuse of the engine in early life honestly you need to order one off a build sheet, and literally pick it up as it's being delivered. Just like your Wife test drove the Camaro and didn't like it I'm sure people test drive mustangs every day.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk
 


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#31
I honestly, don't understand everyone getting so defensive here. I bought my 18 with every option but the sunroof for $19500 before taxes, negotiated the whole way with multiple dealers. I definitely went over every fee and refused to pay any that weren't required aka I'm not paying your prep fee as it's subsidized by Ford anyways into service. Luckily my state restricts doc fees to $200 so wasn't a huge issue for me in regards to that just made sure my OTD was compensated for that $200.

Also I sure as hell wouldn't buy a Mustang with 150 miles on it of un-documented miles I don't buy new cars for it not to be new and unabused. If you think that it wasn't abused, you've never worked service and done a PDI lol, not saying its always the case but I definitely would be wary.

Either way, you Sales guys need to chill on the defensiveness regarding his opinion, he's not buying from yall so being abrasive jerks doesn't solve anything. Some people refuse to pay extra for things that they don't want to pay for and if that bothers you..don't sell them something. But getting defensive on a forum about it is pointless and childish so check yourselves jesus.
 


Jerickson88

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#32
To me it's not that deep. If I see it, they meet my price point on the overall and monthly, I'm good. They did the PDI on my car when I was there. In and out in 3 hours. I liked the car, and they met me at my price point. All of the other little details didn't bother me to save $4 a month.
 


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#33
I don’t get what is so hard to understand about fees....you paid the fee. It may have been called something else, but everyone paid it. It is all about tactics. If I am selling a car and add on all this crap (prep, nitrogen, markup, whatever you want to call it), every time I remove a “fee” the consumer thinks they have “won”. But the reality is that your just closer to where you should have started from before all the fees, certainly not in a better place. It is a psychological thing, and if your focused on the wrong thing, then it is going to work. So if you want real advise on buying a car, don’t focus on fees or payments or the selling “price”....focus on the total cost including everything (you can exclude taxes as they are by law not allowed to profit on those and any excess must be returned).

If you put dealers against themselves (which is a good strategy) you leave yourself open to not comparing apples to apples when it comes time to close the deal at what you think is an incredible deal...then they add on the fees. Most people roll over at that point, but if they were informed it wouldn’t be a surprise or anything to negotiate over because you had already reviewed the whole deal.

Be informed, be prepared to walk, and be respectful. It really is that simple. If you can’t do those things, then you have no right to bitch about dealerships.

I have never worked for a dealership and hope to never have to as the car salesmen's life is not one I envy.
 


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jmrtsus

jmrtsus

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Thread Starter #34
I probably wouldn't buy a new Coyote engine at this point. Well maybe I would I mean you get a new engine if something goes wrong with it. The Internet is just filled with these engines and the piston slap issue, and I know a lot of people are very unhappy with that. Honestly I believe Ford will be replacing a lot engines.
I know you've done your research and you already know all these things, I'm just saying my opinion on it.
If you are extremely worried about the abuse of the engine in early life honestly you need to order one off a build sheet, and literally pick it up as it's being delivered. Just like your Wife test drove the Camaro and didn't like it I'm sure people test drive mustangs every day.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk
That is what we thought we were buying, never an indication this car had abnormal mileage. I have no problems with test drives. 147 miles on one car would amount to about 30 or more test drives on this one single car. Not likely. Plus with the lies about the mileage and not disclosing the mileage until the last few second before he was handed a check even the big wig at the corporate office agrees it was probably staff using the car. So the resolution at this point is ordering the car and having it delivered by truck to her location as proposed by them. And honoring all rebates and prices as of Saturday. As to the miles on the car it is being "resolved". In other words the video is being reviewed at that dealer and some one or multiple people will answer for it, it was never transferred or loaned out so the mileage is a mystery to the dealers management.

We waited a year and watched the GT forums and car rags and have seen no out of the ordinary new car engine problems. The Coyote piston slap was present prior to the deletion of the iron sleeves. They need to make the block taller to stop it but the hoods on the Mustang is already too high in my opinion. I did notice several "cures" on Youtube, not that I wasted time looking at them. After the Vega fiasco unlined aluminium engines I do believe this will work out fine but our Coyote will have a long break-in period. I also think you are correct that Ford will be replacing many, mostly from 18-28 year old males I bet, but the costs have been weighed in and they are willing to gamble for the 50K miles. I will never gamble on one with a mysterious 147 miles on it. I bet if I ran my hand on the inside rear wheel well it would have come out black. Knowing how my wife will drive the car (interstate long distance luxury cruiser) and how it will maintained I am willing to gamble. The only time it will see redline will be on the Tail of the Dragon with my FiST trying to keep up! Hell I was one of the first gamblers on the Wankel (R-100) and replaced many of those. Still love a rotary engine though.

Thankfully this dealer is part of the largest single owner group in the USA and has a corporate office that within minutes of me placing a one star review on Facebook I was contacted by as he called himself "the Fixer". He offered his fix which I accepted in minutes, then we talked cars and the Coyote engine. He completely understood why we walked and were pissed off. We even laughed at the stupid lies I was told. Even with the rebates they will eat and the trucking 400 miles the dealer will still make money based on the invoice on the car. Just a little less. And my wife is happy.

So we will wait for the car.....rejoicing in the upgrade to a California Special and the B&O stereo upgrade for about $500 more than the plain GT premium were we going to order. Dealers will be glad to order a car for you, but will not deal well on price thinking if you want it you can pay for it. This will probably be my wife's last new car and I want it to be exactly what she wants. Her last new car is a 1996 Dodge Stealth R/T that she is retiring. Due to knee surgery she is also going to the automatic for the first time in 35 years. I have a case of Kendall GT-1 on hand along with oil filters for a 1500 mile first oil change, 10 Qts! We survived another new car deal with only 6 well known dealer scams attempted and stuffed the crazy doc fee back at them. So until I buy my Mustang in a few years I think I am done for a while, we will have bought 4 new Fords in 3 years in our family. I am proud to say I have not stepped in a new car dealers door without a check in hand and the deal done in over 25 years. I highly recommend it.
 


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#35
I don’t get what is so hard to understand about fees....you paid the fee. It may have been called something else, but everyone paid it. It is all about tactics. If I am selling a car and add on all this crap (prep, nitrogen, markup, whatever you want to call it), every time I remove a “fee” the consumer thinks they have “won”. But the reality is that your just closer to where you should have started from before all the fees, certainly not in a better place. It is a psychological thing, and if your focused on the wrong thing, then it is going to work. So if you want real advise on buying a car, don’t focus on fees or payments or the selling “price”....focus on the total cost including everything (you can exclude taxes as they are by law not allowed to profit on those and any excess must be returned).

If you put dealers against themselves (which is a good strategy) you leave yourself open to not comparing apples to apples when it comes time to close the deal at what you think is an incredible deal...then they add on the fees. Most people roll over at that point, but if they were informed it wouldn’t be a surprise or anything to negotiate over because you had already reviewed the whole deal.

Be informed, be prepared to walk, and be respectful. It really is that simple. If you can’t do those things, then you have no right to bitch about dealerships.

I have never worked for a dealership and hope to never have to as the car salesmen's life is not one I envy.
Correct as far as “dealer prep” and the other stuff goes the goal is for people to negotiate it off and leave the sales price as is. If it’s someone I’m working on the internet the fee still has to be added back in because of how it’s advertised, but in reality I’m still competitive/cheaper with it added back in

Example: truck online for $51636.. advertised plus freight, plus dealer prep and including rebates everyone qualifies for. The price of the truck jumps to 54636 including rebates but that price is still less than everyone else. Hell its $60317 otd titled in NY. 5k under sticker with their insane tax rate

Car sales life is pretty legit.. lots of hours but freedom to come and go as I please and the pay is phenomenal if you’re good
 


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#36
Car sales life is pretty legit.. lots of hours but freedom to come and go as I please and the pay is phenomenal if you’re good
That’s good to hear (seriously). A lot of the salesmen’s I have dealt with seems burnt out and the hours would suck for me. Plus the whole weekend thing...just not a good fit for me. But I am glad to hear that it can be enjoyable and work for some.

jmrtsus, I’m glad you got to a resolution you are happy with and I hope you and your wife enjoy that new mustang. That really is all that matters.
 


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jmrtsus

jmrtsus

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Thread Starter #37
To me it's not that deep. If I see it, they meet my price point on the overall and monthly, I'm good. They did the PDI on my car when I was there. In and out in 3 hours. I liked the car, and they met me at my price point. All of the other little details didn't bother me to save $4 a month.
I agree...if you are happy with the price there is no need to negotiate further. ALL cars deals are a compromise where both the buyer and seller are happy. Nothing wrong with that. As I have said people buy new cars with differing goals, low down payment, low note, low cash price, pay off a trade and others. But the games never changed since I was 13 years old and hanging out in the New Orleans area's largest Ford dealer listening to the microphones in each sales office. To this day we walk outside to talk at a car dealer as it is legal in most states.
 


Jerickson88

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#38
I agree...if you are happy with the price there is no need to negotiate further. ALL cars deals are a compromise where both the buyer and seller are happy. Nothing wrong with that. As I have said people buy new cars with differing goals, low down payment, low note, low cash price, pay off a trade and others. But the games never changed since I was 13 years old and hanging out in the New Orleans area's largest Ford dealer listening to the microphones in each sales office. To this day we walk outside to talk at a car dealer as it is legal in most states.
Now my game is on tires, and accessories, knives, guns clothing.. I always get the best deal I can, I'm gonna miss $50 out of the wallet whereas $4x72 mo, I probably wont think twice about. I know that's awkward. I always work a short game on finances.
 


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jmrtsus

jmrtsus

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Thread Starter #39
UOTE=Jerickson88;343705]Now my game is on tires, and accessories, knives, guns clothing.. I always get the best deal I can, I'm gonna miss $50 out of the wallet whereas $4x72 mo, I probably wont think twice about. I know that's awkward. I always work a short game on finances.[/QUOTE]

I went through a custom gun and knife stage........now my kids have them and are enjoying them. Spent more money than I like to admit. Had a Browning 22 takedown rifle restored and engraved for my teen daughter. The engraver went nuts and the gun made the cover of gun digest that year! I grew up poor, not shoeless poor but my dad did the car repairs and plumbing, electrical and carpentry and taught me. He was a master Cabinet maker but $$ was always tight. He taught me how to shop. And a conviction that every penny saved could be used for better things. I shop the internet for most things including cars. Retired and doing what I want when I want. The ultimate gift in life is time, but extra money runs a close second.
 


Ford ST

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#40
So I've been looking at new cars even though I don't plan on getting one for at least 3 years it would be for my wife. I like to plan ahead.
The Kia stinger is appealing to us. Anyway I saw a great online price I emailed the dealer requesting the best price they could do along with their fees. Well guess what it was $12,000 higher than their online price. I told them absolutely hell no not interested, and they said you have to come down to the dealership to work out what you could be approved for to get the discount.

Anyway that lovely dealership is Lumberton Kia in North Carolina.
Oh and you would love this there doc fee was about $900, and they added a $2,000 protection package.

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