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What "fees" do I have to pay a dealer to buy a new car?

jmrtsus

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#1
The answer is simple, you pay shipping that is already on the window sticker. That is in general the only fees you are required to pay. We are talking the MSRP factory sticker. Not a dealer added sticker next to it. If the dealer has an added sticker then you need to do two things, get in your car, and drive away. That dealer has already made the public announcement they will rape and murder you. When you find a dealer without the "additional profit" sticker you are at the right dealership to negotiate. Don't waste gas, find that dealer online.

A dealers biggest money maker fee is the "DOC" fee. Does your grocery store require you to pay for a receipt? NO! A dealer is required by law to provide all the documents for you to register your car...at no charge. They will charge you taxes and acquire your tag and title for you for a fee. That fee is totally negotiable. Some states limit by law to as low as $75. Totally unregulated states like GA, FL and NC are where dealers try to get as much as $1000 for that service. You do not have to pay that even though the dealer will tell you all buyers pay it. LIE! This is why they give you such a great price on the car......they add fees to the cost for additional profit.

Advertising Fees......does your grocery make you pay for advertising? Of course not. Any business pays for advertising, that is part of their overhead, not a fee to charge the customer. Another of the fees they will tell you you have to pay......you don't!

Other fees.......this is where they get creative. I have seen; Taxable fees, Non-Taxable fees, Admin. Fees, Tire fees, Government fees, mandatory options, fuel fees and local fees. All Bullshit!

Fees are a dealers favorite way to give you a big "discounts" on the car price then add in fees for profit.

The next shark at the dealer, the "finance" person.

First if you are getting your own financing or paying cash you can basically bypass this shark by writing the check in the salesman's office when you agree on a price. Then in the sharks office just keep saying no until they hand you your papers. Better if you have a certified check from your bank, can't be modified. Never take a check book to a car dealer.......take a filled out single check.

The "finance" folks do your final paper work once you have agreed on a price. They are also a profit center for the dealer. Their games are screwing you on the interest rate, selling "Gap" insurance you do not need, trying to sell you extended service contracts and financing them for 7 years. Will also try to clip you for etched windows, nitrogen in your tires, car insurance, paint sealant, upholstery guard, alarm systems and anything else to add to profit and financing. They will even try to charge you for preparing your loan papers if they can get it.

So what do you do about all this silliness? Just say no! Demand an out the door price and compare that to online dealers prices. You will eventually get a competitive price with the real selling price shown with the addition of the profits the dealer wants. Dealer must make a profit or they will close their doors. Your job is to limit their profit and theirs is to maximize it. SHOP AROUND. I use the internet to win the buying battles, A dealer will not see me in person until I show up on delivery day. Expand out of your local dealer area. Our new Mustang was in FL and we are in TN. My ST came from GA, my daughters car was in IL and my Ex's Escape was in TX. All of these deals saved way over the cost of picking up the car compared to local dealers. Many dealers do not want to sell online and others cater to online sales. My closest Ford dealer does not do any real pricing unless you go in person to the dealer, they lost my ST sale 3 years ago and our new Mustang sale because they only do high pressure in person sales, they have zero interest in competitive pricing. They are trained to sell from stock and close today so internet sales goes against their sales policies. They could care less what you want, it is about what they want to sell you. These are the places to stay away from. You will get better online service from a dealer that has many stores and has people that specialize in online sales.

Don't fight with a dealer over fees.......ignore them, don't engage in conversations about them. Get your OTD price to shop. The fees are red herrings to raise prices.......all that matters is what the dealer wants on the bottom line, it does not matter what the paperwork says between the lines, most is just bogus numbers. Most car buyers get ripped on "fees". When you argue about fees they have won, they will give in on one fee to get you to pay the others. DON'T take the bait. BOTTOM LINE is what matters not the fairy tale in between the MSRP and the write a check OTD price. All made up numbers to deal with so do not deal with them!

Battle preparation

Prepare before ever stepping into a battleground known as the dealer, when you walk in the door you are a "new fish" to be hooked, gutted and eaten. Do not fight a buying battle on your opponents home ground. I know of many dealers with offices bugged legally listening to your conversations when you think you are alone. In many states it is legal if ONE party is aware, not both. Take your conversation with your spouse OUTSIDE! Be prepared to talk to three different people and get three different prices. First price is their dream price, second will be a slightly lower "cut to the bone" price and the third or forth will come AFTER you walk away. Know what the dealer paid for the car buy looking up invoice prices, have your financing taken care of so you are not at the mercy of the dealer and shop prices online to win the price battle. Do not EVER think the Salesperson, Sales Manager or Finance person is your friend. The are smiling thiefs. And ALWAYS check their math.....amazing how many overestimate taxes are charged or "mistakes" in math. Verify what the taxes are with your County/Parish offices. Do not get rushed, it takes me a good 5 -7 days to get to my price and financing. I don't claim to be an expert, I bought my first new car 46 years ago and well over 20 since then. I have sold used cars and all three older brothers were new car salesmen or Managers. I have also purchased 4 new Fords in 3 years. I have made some bad deals like paying sticker twice because I was in love with a car. I have been "double dipped", financed both a car and down payment. Double taxed, double shipping, and paid way to much in "fees". I now steal cars compared to what others pay. One other tip for buying out of town, get a pic of the odometer the minute you make a deal. Sold cars are often used by staff. I don't want a salesman trying the Track mode on my new car!

If you feel lost or don't understand part of the buying process PM me, I may can help you not make the many mistakes I have made over the years. But buying a car is a time consuming process if price is important so be prepared to fight to get your best deal. It is not fighting dirty to know the answers before you ask the questions.

And when the salesman tells you he works for you to get the best price give him a proper Southern response of "Bless your heart". Which translated means "you lying sack of shit!"[wrenchin]

BTW, if you are in need of a car quickly and HAVE to walk into a dealer here are a few tips.

Never walk up to the car you want, let the sales staff show you what they want to sell.

When you do approach a car you want find problems with it. Wrong color, wrong options are good. Let them know you would settle for it at the right price.

When you test drive the car do not take the sales person to listen to what you and your S.O. are talking about. If they say no.........leave! You will be expected to provide a D.L. and proof of insurance usually.

If you like the car when you return then start looking at cheaper cars to send message price is too high.

Get a first price on the car you want then walk away with pricing in writing.

Go to another dealer, hand them the paperwork and ask them to beat it.

Take the better price back and get their next price. Wash, rinse and repeat till one drops out.

Buy car, that is probably the best you can do in a few days. If you have 3 dealers local do all three. Don't let the Finance shark take a bite out of you!
 


Clint Beastwood

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#2
Anywhere they won't budge in price you can usually negotiate for other things, like free stuff for the car, 3 years worth of oil changes, car washes, stuff like that. I negotiate hard, then when the price is all set and done and no more discounts are on the table I start pushing for free throw-ins. I've gotten extended warranties worked into the price of the car (it's a service so it's non taxable, ultimately lower purchase price), a free set of tires, free tinting, 6 free detailings (not at the dealership, but at a detail shop they contract with), from VW a full set of their all weather "monster mats" (which are REALLY nice!) and a set of rear hatch velcro cargo blocks (amazingly useful!). Anything they throw in that is service only should be tax free (here in CA at least). Nontaxable items make for a lower overall purchase price. I also bring my own financing (or in the case of the FiST I was ready to pay cash) and got discounts for financing through the dealership (at 0%), competitive pricing from other dealers, and I usually use USAA's car buying service, as it does 90% of the negotiating for me. I like the negotiation process, it's fun and if you encounter a "no", it's exciting to find an alternate route to get to a "yes". I also have never selected the color of a new car, I've always just bought what was available, after making a big deal of how much I dislike whatever color they had in stock. One of the biggest discounts I ever got was for buying two cars at once, I kept switching negotiation between the two and they made a mistake (gave me the cash-back offer on both purchases instead of one per customer), by the time the finance guy noticed the error I had been there for 6 hours and they decided to let it ride. One oddity I have noticed is that if they see you have money, they fight you less on the negotiation. If you go in looking broke (or in sweatpants and flipflops, not my proudest moment) they were much less willing to deal than when I went in full office battle-dress (lol suit and tie).
 


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Naples
#3
Dealer fees and taxes vary from state to state and dealership to dealership. Some charge no fee and I have seen it as high as $1100 just for you to buy a car from them. Then there are other "doc" fees, registration and taxes also- some paid at the time of purchase, some paid at a later date, like Excise tax.

It's a very good idea to check with the dealership their standard fee before you buy. The dealer fees in Florida- at least South Florida seem to be huge compared to where I used to live in Massachusetts.
 


OP
jmrtsus

jmrtsus

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Thread Starter #4
Anywhere they won't budge in price you can usually negotiate for other things, like free stuff for the car, 3 years worth of oil changes, car washes, stuff like that. I negotiate hard, then when the price is all set and done and no more discounts are on the table I start pushing for free throw-ins. I've gotten extended warranties worked into the price of the car (it's a service so it's non taxable, ultimately lower purchase price), a free set of tires, free tinting, 6 free detailings (not at the dealership, but at a detail shop they contract with), from VW a full set of their all weather "monster mats" (which are REALLY nice!) and a set of rear hatch velcro cargo blocks (amazingly useful!). Anything they throw in that is service only should be tax free (here in CA at least). Nontaxable items make for a lower overall purchase price. I also bring my own financing (or in the case of the FiST I was ready to pay cash) and got discounts for financing through the dealership (at 0%), competitive pricing from other dealers, and I usually use USAA's car buying service, as it does 90% of the negotiating for me. I like the negotiation process, it's fun and if you encounter a "no", it's exciting to find an alternate route to get to a "yes". I also have never selected the color of a new car, I've always just bought what was available, after making a big deal of how much I dislike whatever color they had in stock. One of the biggest discounts I ever got was for buying two cars at once, I kept switching negotiation between the two and they made a mistake (gave me the cash-back offer on both purchases instead of one per customer), by the time the finance guy noticed the error I had been there for 6 hours and they decided to let it ride. One oddity I have noticed is that if they see you have money, they fight you less on the negotiation. If you go in looking broke (or in sweatpants and flipflops, not my proudest moment) they were much less willing to deal than when I went in full office battle-dress (lol suit and tie).
I like your approach......but the first time a dealer sees me the deal is done already. I could care less what I look like!
 


OP
jmrtsus

jmrtsus

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Thread Starter #5
Dealer fees and taxes vary from state to state and dealership to dealership. Some charge no fee and I have seen it as high as $1100 just for you to buy a car from them. Then there are other "doc" fees, registration and taxes also- some paid at the time of purchase, some paid at a later date, like Excise tax.

It's a very good idea to check with the dealership their standard fee before you buy. The dealer fees in Florida- at least South Florida seem to be huge compared to where I used to live in Massachusetts.
Better yet don't pay them...no reason to pay them. The dealer cons you with your "standard" you keep saying. There are no "standard" doc fees, even the states that limit the amount charged by law do not require them, just how much they can charge. If you buy the "standard" you have lost already, these fees are pure profit. The bottom line is what you pay for the car. If you buy the "standard" routine you must also recognize the price they are telling you you are buying the car for is just a bogus made up number. If you buy a $30K car but pay $2K in fees you paid $32K for the car not $30K. You finance $32K not $30K. So if you do not fight these fees you are doing what the dealer counts on.....paying them extra profits. According to an article I read a few years ago most buyers also buy into the "standard" routine as a normal charge to buy a car. Sad.
 


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#6
A dealer I thought had the best prices turns out not to be true.

If you look on Auto Trader, Cars.com and CarGurus and you live on the west coast you know what dealers I am talking about.

All three of them have some sort of dealer add-on, not to mention they try to say their prices are for Washington residents only.

Bill Pierre/Harris Ford I assume are the same owner. They discount the car an additional $750 for using one of four selected lenders and another $750 if your trading in a 2008 or newer vehicle.

What if you have your own financing? add $750. What if you don't have a trade-in? add $750 = $1500 back to the price of the car.

Next we have Epic Ford, they had the lowest priced Fiesta ST listed on Autotrader and CarGurus = $17,277. I got a notification from CarGurus two days ago, new low price = $16,407. For the color I want (White) with black wheels.

Sounds good right? I asked for a itemized breakdown. Dealer Add-ons! To the tune of $1494. What for you ask? 3M Door Edge Guards and some sort of anti-thief system.

OTD price = $20,634 on a car that should cost $17749 after rebates, private cash and TTL

Frontier Ford near the Canadian border as dealer add-ons as well, though I haven't got an itemized breakdown yet.

They had a base model Fiesta ST Black without any options. So I searched for another one and found it at a dealer in the middle of Arizona.

Again dealer add-ons to the tune of $1249 (VIN Etching, Window Tint and Surface Protection).

Back to the drawing board
 


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jmrtsus

jmrtsus

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Thread Starter #7
Keep in mind add on's are wishes for a dealer, they wish everyone will buy them. It is all about the games they play........make a firm cash offer less the add on crap and play one dealer against the other. Lie your butt off to them on prices and financing, not like you are dealing with honest people right?

On our last purchase I subtracted the stuff (bogus Nitrogen fill and tinted windows that are already standard on the car we bought) and the dealer did not blink.....they expected it on an internet purchase. Where they clean house is with a bad credit and underwater trade walking in. They will inflate the price but get you financing nobody else will give you due to inflated price. End of month also netted us another $500 off if we agreed to close before the end of the month. They needed our sale to meet monthly sale numbers for Ford bonus. So play them right back a week before the end of the month, it's not like Fiesta ST's are flying off the lots, 6 months ago the Atlanta region still had 2017's!

I had a car salesman on the forum crying I did not want a dealer to make money! They CHOOSE to sell me a car, no dealer sells a car below cost. Does not happen. And the owner of the dealership the sales guy was crying over is the largest new car dealer owner in the USA and his personal wealth is over $500 million without all his dealerships values! He didn't make that money selling cars at a loss did he? Started as a salesman........he is the one all new car salesmen think they will be while getting their brain washing......errrr sorry, training! Get aggressive with them, show you are a serious buyer by making an offer. To get a real price make a real (low ball) starting offer for them to counter.
 


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#8
Thanks, I had planned to make a counter offer.

First I wanted to see if another dealer in the area had the same car. Other dealers have White cars but have more expensive options. In fact I can get White cars a lot closer to me than that car which is up in Seattle. Denver is closer by some 300 miles.

One dealer in Denver has three White ST's. I am not against getting a base car with no options however. Just not one with $1297 of worthless add-ons.

My plan is to contact the dealers with similar cars even if they have navigation or moonroof to sell me a car without those add-ons.

My window is narrow if I want to use my $1,000 private cash offer. All this nonsense started back in the middle of summer. All the local dealers don't want to deeply discount the car. Fine, a few sold, not all of them. Ironically, all the Autonation cars have sold and they are getting more.

Like I said I thought I had a slam dunk, it's going to take a bit more effort...
 


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jmrtsus

jmrtsus

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Thanks, I had planned to make a counter offer.

First I wanted to see if another dealer in the area had the same car. Other dealers have White cars but have more expensive options. In fact I can get White cars a lot closer to me than that car which is up in Seattle. Denver is closer by some 300 miles.

One dealer in Denver has three White ST's. I am not against getting a base car with no options however. Just not one with $1297 of worthless add-ons.

My plan is to contact the dealers with similar cars even if they have navigation or moonroof to sell me a car without those add-ons.

My window is narrow if I want to use my $1,000 private cash offer. All this nonsense started back in the middle of summer. All the local dealers don't want to deeply discount the car. Fine, a few sold, not all of them. Ironically, all the Autonation cars have sold and they are getting more.

Like I said I thought I had a slam dunk, it's going to take a bit more effort...
It will pay off......
 


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#10
Epic Ford = Our price is firm, add-ons are non-negotiable

Horne-Freedom Ford = and I quote "Yes sir. Our adds are minimal compared to other dealers and we are proud of the products we sell. Each vehicle has a lifetime warranty on the tint, every vehicle is registered with vehicle theft registration which gets you $2500 if the vehicle is ever stolen as well as another way to identify the vehicle."

To their credit they sent me another proposal that knocked off $300 from one of the add-ons, I guess we're getting somewhere.

I got a proposal from Phil Long in Denver, CO $20.202 OTD not great but $500+ less than the Epic car, the Yucca Valley 2018 and less than everybody else thus far.
 


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jmrtsus

jmrtsus

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Epic Ford = Our price is firm, add-ons are non-negotiable

Horne-Freedom Ford = and I quote "Yes sir. Our adds are minimal compared to other dealers and we are proud of the products we sell. Each vehicle has a lifetime warranty on the tint, every vehicle is registered with vehicle theft registration which gets you $2500 if the vehicle is ever stolen as well as another way to identify the vehicle."

To their credit they sent me another proposal that knocked off $300 from one of the add-ons, I guess we're getting somewhere.

I got a proposal from Phil Long in Denver, CO $20.202 OTD not great but $500+ less than the Epic car, the Yucca Valley 2018 and less than everybody else thus far.
Let them stew a few days......
 


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#12
I didn't really contact anyone, just replied thank you to a couple of dealers who finally sent proposals and one or two that sent an updated one.

Horne-Freedom Ford took off the paint protection ($699) and added my private cash incentive, still $20,345 OTD with $598 for VIN etching and tinted windows with "lifetime warranty". (base model no options)

Phil Long Ford initial offer is $20,202 (base model), $689 of that is some fee they charge on all their cars. so the claim goes.

Still not as bad as Dick McKenzie Ford for their base model (Grey) = $22,137

The wack thing is I can get similar prices in California.

Speaking of which Yucca Valley was able to confirm that my private offer does apply to 2018's, so the price now is $19,738

Claims they are "all in" umm kay Base ST w/black wheels.

No add-ons, decent price still high = Auto Plaza Ford - $21,899

Compared to $1494 in add-ons but deeply discounted - $20,634

Same exact car, Platinum White w/black wheels

Oh, Tropical Ford this is for a 2017 Platinum White, Moonroof, Navigation, high dealer fees which was mentioned before also Nitrogen filled tires = $22,047

Eeek, why so high on a three year old car?
 


Last edited:

TyphoonFiST

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#13
I will await your WTB thread about Recaros! Unless the 17' has Recaros ...Do yourself a favor and buy it..[drummer]
 


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#15
I live in Florida for 6 months(I'm a Snowbird) and the dealers here charge outrageous Dealer Fees. Was told by one dealer that everyone pays these fees. Found some are not willing to do much negotiating. I bought my ST in NJ and drove it to my Fla house. I feel I received a better deal up North.
 


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jmrtsus

jmrtsus

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I live in Florida for 6 months(I'm a Snowbird) and the dealers here charge outrageous Dealer Fees. Was told by one dealer that everyone pays these fees. Found some are not willing to do much negotiating. I bought my ST in NJ and drove it to my Fla house. I feel I received a better deal up North.
All dealers claim "everyone" pays them....I don't and never have and we shopped 2 cars in Fl and the "doc" fees price disappeared when faced with a check and firm offer. It is just another bogus profit line and a dream for them if they sell you on having to pay them. That is why they are required to collect sales taxes on it, even the states see it is pure profit not a "service". By law they have to provide with the sale all documents required for you to get you own tag and title. Them selling you a service to get it for you is totally negotiable or refuse and get you own. You are under no legal obligation to contract with them to get your tag and title. They want to make you believe you are but like any contract you have the choice of entering into it. Nor are you required to pay them your state sales taxes if you live out of state like many will claim so they can overcharge you as they all have tried in the last 4 cars we bought. But they all claim it was a computer error when they fix it!
 


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Colorado
#17
I dealing with the same BS with all the Colorado dealers right now...fees and dealer add-ons. One had Recaros (in Pueblo), but I didn't like their pricing at all, it had over 50mi on it and a build date of 12/18.

Which Denver dealer had 3 whites ones? I was just up at a couple of them last week. All I've seen in black and metallic. One pearl white one and one orange.
 


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Los Angeles
#18
I dealing with the same BS with all the Colorado dealers right now...fees and dealer add-ons. One had Recaros (in Pueblo), but I didn't like their pricing at all, it had over 50mi on it and a build date of 12/18.

Which Denver dealer had 3 whites ones? I was just up at a couple of them last week. All I've seen in black and metallic. One pearl white one and one orange.
Phil Long Ford. Unless CarGurus is wrong, that what is listed. Of course it could have changed some as cars sell all the time.

https://www.phillongdenver.com/new-...odyStyle=Hatchback&sortBy=internetPrice+desc&
 


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#19
Thanks DJ.

Its annoying seeing the internet price, but when you get to the dealership, they've added dealer options for nitrogen, door guards, pulse brake light, wheel locks, etc to balloon the price.

So what's a reasonable amount of miles? Pickings are slim at the end of '19 so all the ones in my area are over 50 miles on the odometer. None are sitting on the lot with off-the-truck 8 mi anymore...
 


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#20
There about 300 cars left on lots. Who knows at hold lots around the country, 3700+ Ford dealers in the United States.

Ignore what you see on their internet sites, get a quote from the internet dept. I've been focusing on cars on the lot more than 50 days, that qualifies them for the additional $500 inventory reduction rebate.

Three dealers I have quotes from have the same sort of dealer add-ons, it's insane. Phil Long has some $689 package that they put on all the cars, so I'm told. That's nothing though, Epic Ford in Seattle $1494 for VIN Etching and 3M brand door edge guards. Frontier Ford in Anacortes, WA $2488 in add-ons everything from GPS anti-thief device (think CarLock) to Tinted Windows and I don't remember what else, I just kept track of the price of the stuff.

If you accept those add-ons, the car's price drop to a ridiculous amount.$16,888 for a base car no opt $16,407 for White car with Black wheels, all 2019's NEW.

Did you call Ford and ask if you have a private cash offer available? When you call, just tell the prompt "Rebates" and they will send you to marketing.

If not request a brochure, there might be one in there. It's typically good for 30 days.

Go as far as you're willing to go. Pretty much every dealer has one.
 




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