Can we have an open conversation on LSPI?

[codestp202]

I've been doing a lot of research on knock, lspi, ignition correction ect. I've paid attention to 3 different tunes. I've had Cobb Stage 1, Cobb Stage 2, and now I'm on a DHM tune that we are wrapping up.

I have been extremely cautious about LSPI conditions, not WOT in 5th or 6th (actually not really more then maintenance or 20% throttle), going down to 4th for hard acceleration at highway speeds. But I still seem to get negative ignition correction & knock through all my tunes.

For instance, I was going up a grade today at a park, I was going about 20 mph and shifted into second gear gave about 1/4 throttle to slowly move up the hill, and saw -2 and up to -3.8 across all 4 cylinders. Is this really a condition that LSPI could occur, or is this a normal instance of what the ecu would do? I only had 1 cylinder viewing for knock and I only saw 1 knock in Cyl 3. Am I worrying too much about LSPI? I never go WOT under 2500 rpm.

This is low speed conditions only, my WOT logs are looking pretty good and Ron & I are wrapping up our tune. I never bog the engine, feel anything weird, or hear anything strange. The motor sounds great& i'm right at 8k miles. After doing more research on LSPI I tend to spend more time worrying about it as I drive then enjoying the car lol.


Mobil 1 full synthetic being changed every 3k miles. Good 91 shell gas, spark plugs are gapped correctly.

Here is a log of our latest revision of the tune if anyone is interested:

http://www.datazap.me/u/codestp202/dhm-base-6-tune?log=0&data=5-8-10-11-12-13-16-17-18-19

 

[Based]

You never go full throttle in 5th or 6th? When I do highway pulls to about 110, I usually start in 4th at about 60 and floor it until 5500, shift to 5th with it floored until 5500, etc.

 

[A7xogg]

Try some step colder plugs. Mabye try a different gas station. I assume you can't get 93 Oct which is why u got a91 Oct tune?

 

[codestp202]

You never go full throttle in 5th or 6th? When I do highway pulls to about 110, I usually start in 4th at about 60 and floor it until 5500, shift to 5th with it floored until 5500, etc.

What I mean by no WOT in 5th or 6th, is if I'm traveling at highway speeds, going 65 or 70, and I'm in 6th, I wouldn't go WOT, I would shift down to 5th or 4th to do a WOT pull. But if doing full pulls through each gear, yes I'm going to go WOT in 5th or 6th.

 

[codestp202]

91 only in CA. I'm on a 91 tune and I do have a step colder plugs already :/

 

[DvC]

I got them on cobb ots tunes and i get them on my 91 dhm tune. Dont get them on my e30 tune. Its the fuel. 91 sucks

 

[Brura22]

This topic has been covered many many times in several different threads over the past 3 years on this forum, and even longer on the Focus and Mazdaspeed communities.

Here is a great article explaining all of it.
http://stratifiedauto.com/blog/low-...the-mazdaspeed-disi-and-ford-ecoboost-motors/

Here is another article explaining engine knock on the Ecoboost and when you should or should not be worried.
http://stratifiedauto.com/blog/unde...ons-in-your-high-performance-ecoboost-engine/


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[codestp202]

This topic has been covered many many times in several different threads over the past 3 years on this forum, and even longer on the Focus and Mazdaspeed communities.

Here is a great article explaining all of it.
http://stratifiedauto.com/blog/low-...the-mazdaspeed-disi-and-ford-ecoboost-motors/

Here is another article explaining engine knock on the Ecoboost and when you should or should not be worried.
http://stratifiedauto.com/blog/unde...ons-in-your-high-performance-ecoboost-engine/


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I have read all of that. And none of it addresses me issue. That article does not address what constitutes as "Severe" corrections. I'm guessing anything in increments greater then 2 would be severe.

This is specifically what I am seeing in my logs.

WOT 3rd gear logs from 2500 to redline are great. But dipping into the boost in random gears causes ignition cuts. For instance, traveling in 4th gear and coasting a bit, then giving 60-80% throttle at ~ 3k rpms will see a drop in ignition and a knock. Is that LSPI?

I know how knock, ignition correction ect works.

See the below photo

 

[codestp202]

I got them on cobb ots tunes and i get them on my 91 dhm tune. Dont get them on my e30 tune. Its the fuel. 91 sucks

Okay good to know you are seeing this on DHM tunes as well. Please take a look at the pic I just posted in response to Brura and let me know if that's what you're seeing.

 

[Brura22]

Yeah I get correction in all my tunes


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[DvC]

Okay good to know you are seeing this on DHM tunes as well. Please take a look at the pic I just posted in response to Brura and let me know if that's what you're seeing.

pic is not showing but a lot of the correction i see is partial throttle and mid-WOT pulls

 

[Joker328]

I posted this elsewhere, but didn't get a response so I'll add to this conversation. I switched to 87 and the stock tune for the winter since I don't really need the extra power on winter tires, but I see significant negative corrections (-2 or 3) and knock counts up to 4 on partial throttle application in the middle of the rev band. It's usually not bad if I am WOT, but much less than that and I see corrections all over the place. I wonder if this is just because the tunes have a harder time maintaining a consistent AFR at partial throttle or maybe the gas is bad, but I would have assumed the OAR would adjust for that. Let me know if this sounds similar to what you are seeing.

 

[codestp202]

I posted this elsewhere, but didn't get a response so I'll add to this conversation. I switched to 87 and the stock tune for the winter since I don't really need the extra power on winter tires, but I see significant negative corrections (-2 or 3) and knock counts up to 4 on partial throttle application in the middle of the rev band. It's usually not bad if I am WOT, but much less than that and I see corrections all over the place. I wonder if this is just because the tunes have a harder time maintaining a consistent AFR at partial throttle or maybe the gas is bad, but I would have assumed the OAR would adjust for that. Let me know if this sounds similar to what you are seeing.

Yeah, I'm wondering if the ecu struggles to handle the influx of power when boost comes on so quickly. I'm not seeing as severe as you are seeing. Mainly up to 1.5 or down to -1 or -1.5. At ~3k rpm if you go from 0% throttle to 80% throttle I'll see negative corrections ONLY sometimes. I drove around yesterday just stabbing at the throttle to see if I could recreate the conditions. Sometimes it worked, sometimes I got negative corrections. It sounds like everyone is having these issues regardless of tune. The OAR should learn and adjust. And I'm going to rule out bad gas as I've been driving to different Shell stations in my area each time.

Do we have any idea why?

 

[codestp202]

Yeah I get correction in all my tunes


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Interesting. Do you have any theory as to why this is happening? Boost comes on so quickly in that RPM range. Is the ecu too slow to adjust AFR?

 

[A7xogg]

Yeah, I'm wondering if the ecu struggles to handle the influx of power when boost comes on so quickly. I'm not seeing as severe as you are seeing. Mainly up to 1.5 or down to -1 or -1.5. At ~3k rpm if you go from 0% throttle to 80% throttle I'll see negative corrections ONLY sometimes. I drove around yesterday just stabbing at the throttle to see if I could recreate the conditions. Sometimes it worked, sometimes I got negative corrections. It sounds like everyone is having these issues regardless of tune. The OAR should learn and adjust. And I'm going to rule out bad gas as I've been driving to different Shell stations in my area each time.

Do we have any idea why?

try and add some e30 to your tank and see if it goes away. Ive seen multiple people do that with the same issue you have and they usually see zero corrections

 

[Fistfan]

I think this condition really mainly depends on how the tuner has the tune set up. On the OTS maps, timing is very mild, and can add up to 6 full degrees of correction when there is no knock present. So on the ots tunes, it's very unlikely to see negative corrections. Unless the fuel is terrible, of course.

But if the tuners approach to establishing your timing tables is to push timing right to mbt, so the ECU doesn't have to add much positive correction, then you would be much more likely to see negative corrections.

I'm still in the process of tuning my car, but I am running 23-24 psi on 93 octane and a drop in filter, and have yet to see any negative corrections AT ALL. Once I start advancing timing (and depending on my approach), I'm sure those negative corrections will start creeping up.

 

[Bames_207]

try and add some e30 to your tank and see if it goes away. Ive seen multiple people do that with the same issue you have and they usually see zero corrections

I wish Maine had e30....

 

[Genya]

Interesting Artice featuring Ecoboost 2.0 and the effect of calcium heavy oils role in LSPI.

https://www.oronite.com/products/lspi.asp

 

[M-Sport fan]

Interesting Artice featuring Ecoboost 2.0 and the effect of calcium heavy oils role in LSPI.

https://www.oronite.com/products/lspi.asp

THANKS for posting that!

That does show the dilemma of using many of the current 'stout' oils which use a HUGE quantity of calcium compounds in order to get their high starting TBNs in our engines.

I may have to go back onto bitog (SHUDDERS! ) to seek out which current oils use the most magnesium, and LEAST calcium, in their detergent additive packs.
The saddest part is that most of the oils with the beneficial, sky high moly compound contents (whether 'dimer' or 'trimer' type), also have insane amounts of calcium and ZDDP in their additive packages.

Hopefully, all of the other major additive supplying companies besides Oronite (Afton, Lubrizol, Infineum) are also working on solutions to this problem as well.

 

[A7xogg]

Interesting Artice featuring Ecoboost 2.0 and the effect of calcium heavy oils role in LSPI.

https://www.oronite.com/products/lspi.asp

So just read the article, we should be using oil that meets or exceeds gf-6. I'm gonna so look up and see if the oil I have been using (Castrol edge) meets or exceeds that.