Is a bigger FMIC a must with stock turbo boost increase?

[Brianmc27]

It seems you have your mind made up!

Report back when you have time on how it all works.

 

[TalkToTheFiST]

It seems you have your mind made up!

Report back when you have time on how it all works.

Roger that. I mostly wanted to know what the risk was of damaging my engine with a stock IC in. I don't do any actual racing and i rarely drive longer than an hour at a time so im good. Still getting that FMIC later this year bc it's the next step but i feel ok with the chip on stock now.

 

[Brianmc27]

Roger that. I mostly wanted to know what the risk was of damaging my engine with a stock IC in. I don't do any actual racing and i rarely drive longer than an hour at a time so im good. Still getting that FMIC later this year bc it's the next step but i feel ok with the chip on stock now.

I’m running a Dizzy stage 1 tune with the stock IC and it’s 105 here in Sacramento. No issues. You’ll be fine.

(Granted, I’m able to monitor my charge temps with the Accessport)

 

[HBEcoBeaST]

Report back with your results. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I'm sure you will get some benefit, but those sensor bypass modules don't compare to how an AP works by re programming how your ecm works. I have experience with jb1 chips like this on VW and BMW platforms and they add power and retain warranty, but they don't compare to a complete ECM re map.

And FYI 195hp is crank hp

 

[jeffreylyon]

I can tell you for a fact if you use an OBD dongle based device like the Delta boost module that only temporarily modifies the parameters, it will do so in top of whatever tune is flashed, including a tune that is already pushing all the boost the car can handle. Not sure why you are saying otherwise, but can be dangerous to give wrong advice there. But yes, am AP is the way to go, but for those super concerned about warranty and don't want to flash anything, those boost modules are not a bad way to go but otherwise an AP is the far, far superior option in every other way.

The Delta Boost module manipulates what the ECU "sees." It doesn't modify parameters inside the ECU. This is why I said that they are a terrible idea for anything but a stock tune.

 

[TalkToTheFiST]

Report back with your results. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I'm sure you will get some benefit, but those sensor bypass modules don't compare to how an AP works by re programming how your ecm works. I have experience with jb1 chips like this on VW and BMW platforms and they add power and retain warranty, but they don't compare to a complete ECM re map.

And FYI 195hp is crank hp

Yep 195 at the crank. That may be part of the disconnect here too, im not used to speaking in WHP dyno numbers, while that's probably all you guys speak of. Now worries. Eventually i will go the well beaten path, for now this should give me some fun and costs less than the rest.

 

[Brianmc27]

Yep 195 at the crank. That may be part of the disconnect here too, im not used to speaking in WHP dyno numbers, while that's probably all you guys speak of. Now worries. Eventually i will go the well beaten path, for now this should give me some fun and costs less than the rest.

Here’s the part I don’t understand... you plan on doing the Accessport later anyways, so you’re just costing yourself an extra $250 to save $75 in the short term?

 

[TalkToTheFiST]

Here’s the part I don’t understand... you plan on doing the Accessport later anyways, so you’re just costing yourself an extra $250 to save $75 in the short term?

Im looking at it like this. Lets say this chip really does give almost 40bhp from increased boost (the one i ordered is listed at 37, the 3rd model is listed at 55bhp). At what point in the traditional path will i get that far? Maybe stage 2 with a custom tune? Which means i need my IC first, which is like $500 total since i can't install it myself, plus an AP which there's no guarantee if/when i will find one at $300-$400.

So how long would it be before that point? No telling, finances fluctuate and i can't control who sells an AP at what price. And i can't be sure to be on here every day and not miss an AP when it finally comes up. Yes if i eventually get a stage 2 tune and remove this chip it's $250 on a shelf, but i get that 38bhp the entire time till that point.

And who knows, i may love what the chip does and get an IC later this year and be happy with that much power. There's also 5 "settings" on the RaceChip, i assume they allow one to adjust the amount of boost pressure it adds. If a get a stage 1 or 2 down the road that doesn't push the boost as far as i like, i can keep the chip on and get more power without having to pay for a custum tune, but i will still get benefits of timing ect of a basic tune.

 

[jeffreylyon]

Im looking at it like this. Lets say this chip really does give almost 40bhp from increased boost (the one i ordered is listed at 37, the 3rd model is listed at 55bhp). At what point in the traditional path will i get that far? Maybe stage 2 with a custom tune? Which means i need my IC first, which is like $500 total since i can't install it myself, plus an AP which there's no guarantee if/when i will find one at $300-$400.

So how long would it be before that point? No telling, finances fluctuate and i can't control who sells an AP at what price. And i can't be sure to be on here every day and not miss an AP when it finally comes up. Yes if i eventually get a stage 2 tune and remove this chip it's $250 on a shelf, but i get that 38bhp the entire time till that point.

And who knows, i may love what the chip does and get an IC later this year and be happy with that much power. There's also 5 "settings" on the RaceChip, i assume they allow one to adjust the amount of boost pressure it adds. If a get a stage 1 or 2 down the road that doesn't push the boost as far as i like, i can keep the chip on and get more power without having to pay for a custum tune, but i will still get benefits of timing ect of a basic tune.

You seem to be under the impression that the RaceChip does something different for the 40hp increase (I call BS on that number as much as I call BS on the up to 20% increase in MPG) that an AP does. It doesn't. The only way either of these mods. make more power is by increasing boost and timing advance. Increased boost increases charge temp. which is why we run a larger I/C. If you need an I/C to avoid soaking at a xbhp increase from the RaceChip you'll need one for the same increase from an AP installed-tune.

And I'll say it again, you're asking for a bad day if you install a non-stock tune and then try to juice it by lying to it by manipulating the sensor data.

 

[TalkToTheFiST]

You seem to be under the impression that the RaceChip does something different for the 40hp increase (I call BS on that number as much as I call BS on the up to 20% increase in MPG) that an AP does. It doesn't. The only way either of these mods. make more power is by increasing boost and timing advance. Increased boost increases charge temp. which is why we run a larger I/C. If you need an I/C to avoid soaking at a xbhp increase from the RaceChip you'll need one for the same increase from an AP installed-tune.

And I'll say it again, you're asking for a bad day if you install a non-stock tune and then try to juice it by lying to it by manipulating the sensor data.

I've done a lot of reading of threads in this forum before i was a member. An overwhelming number of people mention heat soak isn't really an issue for casual driving as you are only engaging the turbo sporadically. Which makes sense, if i accelerate to 50 hard but then stay on that road doing 50 for the next 2 minutes, the turbo was only engaged for maybe 6 of those 120 seconds, very different from multiple drag pulls right?

So lets break it down piece by piece. Real tunes get power by, as you said, boost and timing advance. Is that stage 1 or 2 or both? Because stage 1 doesn't require an IC upgrade right? So unless stage 1 is only getting power increased from timing advances, which i have read other people here say otherwise, then it's clearly ok to increase boost even without a IC, as long as you don't push it too far.

And what happens if you do push "too far" without that new FMIC? According to a thread i just read from a couple years ago, the car simply refuses to meet torque demands and lowers boost until it cools down. A bigger FMIC will do that faster but again, im not spooling nonstop on city roads.

Here's a video where a channel tested Camaro with the most powerful RaceChip (i got the weakest of the 3). They stock ran 280hp/273tq, with the chip they got 310hp/305tq. Those numbers would be a bigger difference with BHP rather than WHP. But still that's pretty good, 30 whp. These guys aren't affiliated with the company, they are a small channel into cars.

Here's another with a BMW 420i. Dynod at 169hp/254tq stock, and 209hp/331tq with racechip. That's 40whp and 77tq, not bad. There's a long list of people out there testing these, all you have to do is look. So one of three things is going on here, either all these "independent" people are lying and getting paid to do so by racechip, or they are somehow screwing up dyno runs and getting numbers that are untrue. Or, the chips really work.

If you want to call all these people liars that's your call, im gonna go a different route.

 

[jeffreylyon]

I've done a lot of reading of threads in this forum before i was a member. An overwhelming number of people mention heat soak isn't really an issue for casual driving as you are only engaging the turbo sporadically. Which makes sense, if i accelerate to 50 hard but then stay on that road doing 50 for the next 2 minutes, the turbo was only engaged for maybe 6 of those 120 seconds, very different from multiple drag pulls right?

So lets break it down piece by piece. Real tunes get power by, as you said, boost and timing advance. Is that stage 1 or 2 or both? Because stage 1 doesn't require an IC upgrade right? So unless stage 1 is only getting power increased from timing advances, which i have read other people here say otherwise, then it's clearly ok to increase boost even without a IC, as long as you don't push it too far.

And what happens if you do push "too far" without that new FMIC? According to a thread i just read from a couple years ago, the car simply refuses to meet torque demands and lowers boost until it cools down. A bigger FMIC will do that faster but again, im not spooling nonstop on city roads.

Here's a video where a channel tested Camaro with the most powerful RaceChip (i got the weakest of the 3). They stock ran 280hp/273tq, with the chip they got 310hp/305tq. Those numbers would be a bigger difference with BHP rather than WHP. But still that's pretty good, 30 whp. These guys aren't affiliated with the company, they are a small channel into cars.

Here's another with a BMW 420i. Dynod at 169hp/254tq stock, and 209hp/331tq with racechip. That's 40whp and 77tq, not bad. There's a long list of people out there testing these, all you have to do is look. So one of three things is going on here, either all these "independent" people are lying and getting paid to do so by racechip, or they are somehow screwing up dyno runs and getting numbers that are untrue. Or, the chips really work.

If you want to call all these people liars that's your call, im gonna go a different route.

You're stuck on marketing, i.e. Stage 1, Stage 2, etc. *ANY* power increases added by the RaceChip or the AP are done by increasing boost and advancing timing (although I'd be surprised if the RaceChip adds timing). I didn't say that you'd need an I/C. I said that if you needed an I/C with a +x HP increase from an AP you'd need one with a +x HP increase from the RaceChip. In fact, if the RaceChip isn't adding timing, then the only trick it has to add power is to lie to the ECU to trick it into keeping the waste gate closed more to create more boost. An AP can offer a wee bit more power than can the RaceChip at any given boost level because it can also monkey with timing.

The 1.6EB is rather unique in it's torque delivery - lot's down low and very little lag. The tradeoff is that little turbo runs out of steam at 5500 or so. HP = (Torque * RPM / 5252). Because the stock 1.6EB is falling off its torque curve pretty low, relatively speaking, making more HP with a stock turbo is tough, tougher than with other platforms. Dizzy, who is as respected as any of the tuners, gets a 182 -> 200 increase in HP and 196 -> 250 increase in torque with his 93 tune and 205HP/265lbft on his E30 tune. 18 HP with a tune taking advantage of 93 gas and 23 on E30. RaceChip has found 55 HP? And up to 20% increase in MPG? Yep, I'm calling BS on both numbers. If they actually found a way to find another 20% increase in fuel economy then they'd forget about the tuner business and sell out to the automotive manufacturers.

 

[DEss]

If you want to call all these people liars that's your call, im gonna go a different route.

I applaud you for experimenting with something different. I think the main issue most here have with it is that it's an unknown, and that you've implied that you're going to go with the AP down the line anyway. If budget is a concern, and you seemed to imply that it is, then it wouldn't make much sense to get something unknown as a stopgap. If you get an AP, you can pretty easily sell it because it'll work for the Fiesta and the Focus. However, with that chip, if you're out of the return period, it's probably more difficult to find a market for it.

To answer your original question - it depends. If you're increasing boost by a little and if you're not always on boost, then the original fmic should serve you well.

I hope it works out for you. I think people who want to try new things and share their experiences with the forum should be encouraged.




DEss

 

[TalkToTheFiST]

You're stuck on marketing, i.e. Stage 1, Stage 2, etc. *ANY* power increases added by the RaceChip or the AP are done by increasing boost and advancing timing (although I'd be surprised if the RaceChip adds timing). I didn't say that you'd need an I/C. I said that if you needed an I/C with a +x HP increase from an AP you'd need one with a +x HP increase from the RaceChip. In fact, if the RaceChip isn't adding timing, then the only trick it has to add power is to lie to the ECU to trick it into keeping the waste gate closed more to create more boost. An AP can offer a wee bit more power than can the RaceChip at any given boost level because it can also monkey with timing.

The 1.6EB is rather unique in it's torque delivery - lot's down low and very little lag. The tradeoff is that little turbo runs out of steam at 5500 or so. HP = (Torque * RPM / 5252). Because the stock 1.6EB is falling off its torque curve pretty low, relatively speaking, making more HP with a stock turbo is tough, tougher than with other platforms. Dizzy, who is as respected as any of the tuners, gets a 182 -> 200 increase in HP and 196 -> 250 increase in torque with his 93 tune and 205HP/265lbft on his E30 tune. 18 HP with a tune taking advantage of 93 gas and 23 on E30. RaceChip has found 55 HP? And up to 20% increase in MPG? Yep, I'm calling BS on both numbers. If they actually found a way to find another 20% increase in fuel economy then they'd forget about the tuner business and sell out to the automotive manufacturers.

Well im not relying on any marketing, i assumed it was like most other chips, all BS, till i started finding people doing dynos and seeing real gains. And i agree an AP has more overall potential, never said otherwise, but like i also said, who knows when i will get an AP.

And here's another thing, i may be new to the details of tuning i do know that peak HP/TQ are not the whole equation. You can actually see zero increase in peak power and still get a faster car thanks to the curve flattening out early on. And that's what many people are showing with dyno runs, they are getting larger gaps along the curves than the peak numbers suggest.

A more accurate measure would probably be calculating an average hp/tq over the entire curve, but who am i to suggest things to the pros? Either way im good, if this chip turns out to be a dud, i get my money back. But im curious about your sellout to the MFG statement. Are you saying these racechip guys know something Ford doesn't? I think you are mistaken if you assume just bc Ford doesn't push stock boost over 21psi that they CANT do it. They have all kinds of things to consider when designing a car, including longevity.

Are guys like Dizzy any more concerned with your car's longevity than RaceChip is? No, even i know when you burn more fuel in the same engine, there's more friction and more wear. Ford has to think about that, these other guys are just finding ways to make our cars faster at the expense of longevity, and charging us for it bc Ford won't do it themselves and we don't know how.

I get it, people here are loyal to the tuning business, but there's nothing wrong with trying new things. People here obviously haven't really looked into this particular product, so lets just sit back and see how it does?

 

[TalkToTheFiST]

I applaud you for experimenting with something different. I think the main issue most here have with it is that it's an unknown, and that you've implied that you're going to go with the AP down the line anyway. If budget is a concern, and you seemed to imply that it is, then it wouldn't make much sense to get something unknown as a stopgap. If you get an AP, you can pretty easily sell it because it'll work for the Fiesta and the Focus. However, with that chip, if you're out of the return period, it's probably more difficult to find a market for it.

To answer your original question - it depends. If you're increasing boost by a little and if you're not always on boost, then the original fmic should serve you well.

I hope it works out for you. I think people who want to try new things and share their experiences with the forum should be encouraged.




DEss

Hi Dess, yes you hit the nail on the head im willing to try something different. Probly bc im so new to this hobby, and that makes sense, people get set in their ways. You'd be amazed, ive been into photography for a good while now, spent probly 10 grand in the last decade. People who loved film HATED digital when it arrived, people who loved DSLRs HATED mirrorless when it arrived. People get in ruts, i don't take it personally. It's natural to defend the path you think is best.

But since i can return the chip, there's no reason not to try it and see. Yes over the next 3 years i will end up paying an extra $250, but over the next year i get more time with improved performance. Im willing to trade $250 for that, and if it works well im tempted to exchange it for the GTS version which is 50% more vroom.

So yes budget is a concern now, not so much over the long run with income taxes and such. And good to hear about the stock FMIC, it's what i have also read a lot on older threads here. I don't think you can be constantly spooling in city roads and stay out of jail. I'll get a new FMIC later this year anyway bc it can only help and my goal was, if possible, 300 bhp. The chip for now is just a stop gap to have a little fun in the meantime.

 

[Phishy]

This is the sentiment im getting too, and i think it's lost on many here. Of course i listen to all info and i definitely would be following all advice to the T if i were also following the footsteps. But i don't drag, i don't even know how far im going to push the mods. I don't own a socket wrench or have my own garage.

This is my daily driver, it has 2 car seats in the back and i just want some more power to play around with from time to time. It's the same as the E30 thing, i have no doubt it helps with a tune but i only have so much time, energy and money to put into this. Im married, have 3 children and have budgeted a certain amount to my car.

So while many here have dedicated all their free time to modding their cars, im just not at that point. Maybe someday but i can't do it now even if i wanted to. I'd love to hit 300bhp but even that, if possible, was years out in my head. My oldest will be out of the house in 2 years n change, that frees up more cash ect.

Im just trying to get a few cheap mods that give me some power while biding my time before i can get further into this hobby. But i do appreciate all advice here and im still gonna stick around and learn as i go, i just may not follow all the advice right away.

Before you spend $200-550 on your daily to make it more "fast" invest in a damn socket wrench. Seriously. Buy some tools, buy some cheap stuff to play with the car and your new tools and spend the bigger money on power later. Thats the best advice I can give in this thread. Get a brace, or intake tube, symposer delete etc, start small with noisemakers and such. Its fun to do and will let you understand what is going on with the car more.

 

[TalkToTheFiST]

Before you spend $200-550 on your daily to make it more "fast" invest in a damn socket wrench. Seriously. Buy some tools, buy some cheap stuff to play with the car and your new tools and spend the bigger money on power later. Thats the best advice I can give in this thread. Get a brace, or intake tube, symposer delete etc, start small with noisemakers and such. Its fun to do and will let you understand what is going on with the car more.

LOL yes im sure it's odd in this forum. But, not everybody wants to become grease monkeys. i'd love to be, i wish i got into automotive decades ago but it's not the time now. Maybe a handful of years from now but no sooner. I did put a SRI on my old 2002 Celica GT 6 or 7 years ago, and my FIST already has a CAI and RMM so im kinda limited on the next move. I will be putting this chip on myself if that matters 😀 .

 

[1MEAN18]

Stock fmic is trash even with stock tuning if you drive in a spirited manner in the heat of summer. I run an E30 tune, and I bought a Whoosh to stay safe, even though I don't track the car or run it hard for long...if I lived in Florida or Texas a fmic upgrade (even without tuning) would be a mandatory first item for me in these cars.

 

[TalkToTheFiST]

Stock fmic is trash even with stock tuning if you drive in a spirited manner in the heat of summer. I run an E30 tune, and I bought a Whoosh to stay safe, even though I don't track the car or run it hard for long...if I lived in Florida or Texas a fmic upgrade (even without tuning) would be a mandatory first item for me in these cars.

I don't doubt your assertion 1. I live in Missouri, it's pretty hot here in the summer. That's one reason im wanting to get the FMIC before the AP. But i restate my prior statement, i don't do much official racing, nothing but fun on city roads. I don't think i will have any issues with heat soak with what i do, especially since fall is incoming and temps are dropping for the next 7 months.

I'd love to get out of the midwest, i hate the humidity here. Perhaps you can talk to my wife and convince her to move to Utah? I hear it's a great place for photography, my other hobby. My FIST would prefer it there too.

 

[Hypergram]

I don't doubt your assertion 1. I live in Missouri, it's pretty hot here in the summer. That's one reason im wanting to get the FMIC before the AP. But i restate my prior statement, i don't do much official racing, nothing but fun on city roads. I don't think i will have any issues with heat soak with what i do, especially since fall is incoming and temps are dropping for the next 7 months.

I'd love to get out of the midwest, i hate the humidity here. Perhaps you can talk to my wife and convince her to move to Utah? I hear it's a great place for photography, my other hobby. My FIST would prefer it there too.

I highly recommend Utah. I've been going most winters and occasional summers for years. One of the best place in the country IMO. Only problem with the Fiesta is that it's front wheel drive. Not easy to get around in lots of harsh snow (but what do I know I'm from Florida lol)

 

[Dpro]

Are guys like Dizzy any more concerned with your car's longevity than RaceChip is? No, even i know when you burn more fuel in the same engine, there's more friction and more wear. Ford has to think about that, these other guys are just finding ways to make our cars faster at the expense of longevity, and charging us for it bc Ford won't do it themselves and we don't know how.

Actually Jason is in fact he actually made a post about it in his tuning thread.
All tuners are concerned about preserve the longevity of your engine as its their reputation on the line. If you car goes boom under their tune well thats bad publicity . If several peoples cars go boom well then that tuner usually winds up not being able to sell tunes anymore.
So your reasoning above falls short.

Also a lot of us have been tuning cars longer than you have . I used to work with an Apexi PowerFC handheld ECU tuner on Japanese cars that allowed a lot of parameters to be modded.
We could tune it ourselves or take it to a tuner who knew PowerFC’s well. The other one was a Haltech. This was before Cobb was in the game with their access port. Aka Pre OBDII.

It seems like you really don’t want to follow advice you only want validation that your chip idea is sound. Like has been said already lots more experience people than you have here chiming in and the overwhelming consensus is forgot the chip use the money to get an AP and call it a day.
I would listen and learn if I was in your shoes. We are not in europe we are the in the U.S. our tuning options are pretty wide open with an AP as there are a good amount of good tuners to choose from.
Take advantage of that instead of throwing your money down a closed door hole.