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6 months in: The uselessness of torque in FWD cars

OffTheWall503

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#1
Let me just start off by saying that like all of you, I love my Fiesta. As awesome as this car is, and on a sadder note compared to many of you here, this is the fastest car I've ever owned. It's also my first brand new car purchase of my life. I'm a 27 year old who grew up scrapping his pennies working minimum wage jobs to put wheels and tires, suspension, and even stereo systems on my Miatas, Civics, and other hot hatches I've owned in the past. I was too broke at that time to afford modifications that gave cars (real) power. But after 6+ months of ownership and going through the motions of modification and countless hours of labor time and research, I want to share my experience and hopefully help others along the path of modification happiness. I'll share my experience with the modding bug, I almost got sucked in because of boost...

What I've learned in my short time of owning this car, is that this car has a funny aftermarket. What do I mean by that? I've found a lot of companies are making parts that are pretty, but have very little usefulness or substance. There are many parts that have no true benefit, no gain, or lack of proof of such benefits that the company claims their parts provide. I admit, I fell into the hype on some parts, like my Mishimoto intake. But hey, hard to resist at over 30% off with a discount code from them. I gained "maybe" 5 hp/tq, but I feel the tune made that possible. I am a ricer, because I enjoy the sound it provides. It is only somewhat louder than stock and doesn't hiss like most open cone filter intake systems for this car. Same with my FSWerks catback, no real world gains but (supposedly) improves turbo flow and gives a great noise that's slightly louder than stock. But even still, I digress that a lot of people are (sometimes intentionally) wasting money that isn't necessary...

Perfect example, and not meaning to rip anyone, but Cobb is milking many unaware FiST owners dry. Stage 3 costs over $3000 (MSRP) for very marginal gains of (roughly) 25-30 hp and 50 tq. This is the sorriest gains for the money I have EVER seen in any car community, especially a turbocharged car.

With that being said, with how great this engine is, short of a new turbo, you won't get any substantial gains unless you spend an ungodly amount of money (for how much this car costs). I don't know about you, but it seems to me that this car is meant for people like me, that want a fun, somewhat quick car at an entry level price. This car isn't meant to be a powerhouse platform like the WRX, Golf, etc.

When I dyno'd my car recently, I hit almost 300 ft/lbs of torque (285) and for the life of me, I don't understand how people launch these cars and try to drag race with the FiST. I can hardly get traction while moving in 2nd gear, why waste the tires and thousands of dollars to shave tenths or hundredths of a second to get the best time possible at the drag strip? This car is meant for budget oriented people who want to have fun at a decent price point. Drive it through canyon roads, take it to the local autocross so you can take advantage of the situations that the car was meant for. Don't try to make this car something that it isn't.

Anyway, thanks for reading my rant and my BS. I mostly want this post to help others in deciding what they should do or spend (or not) their hard earned money on.

What I recommend (if I had to do it all over again):
- Accessport with tune of your choice ($500 or less)
- MTC FMIC ($325 shipped)
- Drop-in air filter (<$50)
- Lightweight wheels and tires
- Better brakes (if you compete)
- E30 tune (if fuel option is available)
 


Hijinx

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#4
I have a rant to... While I agree with some of your points, I EXTREMELY disagree with the sentiment of what the car is "meant for."

You're not "help[ing] others in deciding what they should do or spend their hard earned money on." You're prescribing your own preferences and inflating your ego.

If you want to help people ask THEM what they want/expect from their car, and the budget they have. THEN make your suggestions within that budget.


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OP
OffTheWall503

OffTheWall503

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Thread Starter #5
No inflation of my ego intended, this was my experience on it. I'm not saying everything is a waste of money. In fact, "wasting money" is all perspective. If you feel you are getting your moneys worth, then that's good for you.

Not trying to antagonize anyone, this post isn't directed at anyone. In fact, I'd like to use this as an avenue for discussion and how others feel about the aftermarket support and community.

This discussion on Reddit inspired me to post this here to get opinions. [MENTION=2740]commonplatypus[/MENTION]
https://www.reddit.com/r/FiestaST/comments/50uq9m/real_talk_about_power_brakes_handling_and_the/
 


Based

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#6
Yeah now that I am researching more about this car's aftermarket support options, it's funny how I actually thought spending $3000 "wasn't bad" to get an extra 30whp.

My plan is to get a tune from Tune+ on 93, get an intercooler (idk which one) and then maybe a drop in filter and an x37. It's about $500 cheaper than stage 3 and you get about 70whp more.
 


Hijinx

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#7
No inflation of my ego intended, this was my experience on it. I'm not saying everything is a waste of money. In fact, "wasting money" is all perspective. If you feel you are getting your moneys worth, then that's good for you.

Not trying to antagonize anyone, this post isn't directed at anyone. In fact, I'd like to use this as an avenue for discussion and how others feel about the aftermarket support and community.

This discussion on Reddit inspired me to post this here to get opinions. [MENTION=2740]commonplatypus[/MENTION]
https://www.reddit.com/r/FiestaST/comments/50uq9m/real_talk_about_power_brakes_handling_and_the/
My point is that there is no right or wrong thing to use a car for. Let the person decide instead of suggesting we all fit a cookie cutter. I've helped quite a few people around here... Some that want to autoX, some that want daily pleasure, and some that want V8 slayers and combinations of the sort. When someone comes to me, my first question is what do they want out of their car, and then their budget if they don't mind sharing.

As far some parts... I have many thoughts about some manufacturers and tuners out there that I don't feel like sharing because it'll turn into a shitfest.


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Based

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#8
Hininx would you say it is worth it to get a drop in filter and if so which one? I am getting an etune soon.
 


Hijinx

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Hininx would you say it is worth it to get a drop in filter and if so which one? I am getting an etune soon.
A drop-in would help you save money long term. So, in the long run, it could be worth it. But even those aren't needed. One of our members here did some testing and came to the conclusion that our paper filter isn't a restriction as a stock head won't even outflow the stock intake tubing.


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Based

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#10
A drop-in would help you save money long term. So, in the long run, it could be worth it. But even those aren't needed. One of our members here did some testing and came to the conclusion that our paper filter isn't a restriction as a stock head won't even outflow the stock intake tubing.


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Oh ok so what you're saying is it really doesn't matter.
 


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#11
You get a little more turbo sound with the drop in filter. It's worth it for 40 dollars. But the RMM is worth it more. I've had my car since April and my mods are drop in filter, air tec intercooler, mishimoto induction hose and Cobb RMM on a stratified stage 1 map. But I bought the fist as my daily, if I wasnt in the process of building a 300zx twin turbo, my fist would already be a 11 second car. I would of just bought a DHM BT kit and been done with it. Here's a vdyno, its not the fastest car but it feeds my needs for adrenaline until I finish the Z.

 


Based

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#12
And from what I'm gathering from my 3 days of research is that it doesn't really matter what IC I pick
 


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#14
Keep in mind your coming from honda's and matia's.

Modding a Fiesta is relatively cheap in the spectrum of the Automotive world, even including the price of going big turbo.

I've bought motors that cost more then the fiesta for other builds
 


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#15
In my opinion CPE, Mtc, depo, air tec, or if you want room to grow buy the DHM race intercooler and crash bar that's where it's at. That will give you room to grow. But like [MENTION=759]Hijinx[/MENTION] said it all depends on your goals for the car people always say I'm only going to go so far but the truth is everyone always wants more.
 


Based

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#16
In my opinion CPE, Mtc, depo, air tec, or if you want room to grow buy the DHM race intercooler and crash bar that's where it's at. That will give you room to grow. But like [MENTION=759]Hijinx[/MENTION] said it all depends on your goals for the car people always say I'm only going to go so far but the truth is everyone always wants more.
I want to run x37 turbo on 93. I think that's as far as I will go just for budget reasons.

I'm stuck between MTC, Depo, and MAP. I was going to go MAP but then someone mentioned the Depo racing was just as good but cheaper. Same with MTC. But then some people are saying the Depo isn't as good as the others. I just don't want to have to buy twice. I'm the type of guy that will notice a 5whp loss on the street.
 


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#17
What I've learned in my short time of owning this car, is that this car has a funny aftermarket. What do I mean by that? I've found a lot of companies are making parts that are pretty, but have very little usefulness or substance. There are many parts that have no true benefit, no gain, or lack of proof of such benefits that the company claims their parts provide.
Oh boy do I agree with you there, and you have my support. I don't have a multi-thousand post count, but I try to have quality post with scientific information. I had a long post on my ATP 2554 and had roller-dyno proof that is possible to increase nearly peak 80WHP (165 to 241) over stock with running 'only' 18-19PSI on 93 with the tiny Levels FMIC, no meth. I ran 241WHP and fuel pump duty cycle is at 90%. Not sure how some people are claiming 300WHP (not crank but WHEEL). But spewing big #'s makes $$$. My before and after real-life dyno results were largely ignored when I made my negative opinion on using vdynos as the Bible, especially when used to sell products with no before runs. This community is obsessed with with inflated numbers which are used to make a lot of money and very few users question it. I was big into the SRT8 community years ago and the appendage-waving contest wasn't nearly as bad as in this community. My 241WHP @ 2750lbs ran a trap speed of 104mph in hot air. The "400WHP BT meth fed via a well known e-tuner" FoST at the track ran a 107MPH trap speed. Something doesn't add up.

I LOVE my ATP 2554 because I don't have that massive donkey kick of torque that uselessly spins tires. I don't need or want that much torque below 3K because is it useless at WOT for autox and track days.

BTW, I saw your reddit post with your wheels. I WANT!!!
 


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#18
For the price depo and Mtc are good. If you see their intercoolers in person the build quality is very good. I bought the air tec just due to no one else posting any logs and [MENTION=1076]razorlab[/MENTION] had a decent amount of data on it. It has also performed well. The DHM race intercooler is the last intercooler you'll have to buy temps never go over 4 to 5* over ambient from what I've read but with that comes the price but you also get the baddest fiesta st intercooler on the market.
 


Based

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#19
Oh boy do I agree with you there, and you have my support. I don't have a multi-thousand post count, but I try to have quality post with scientific information. I had a long post on my ATP 2554 and had roller-dyno proof that is possible to increase nearly peak 80WHP (165 to 241) over stock with running 'only' 18-19PSI on 93 with the tiny Levels FMIC, no meth. I ran 241WHP and fuel pump duty cycle is at 90%. Not sure how some people are claiming 300WHP (not crank but WHEEL). But spewing big #'s makes $$$. My before and after real-life dyno results were largely ignored when I made my negative opinion on using vdynos as the Bible, especially when used to sell products with no before runs. This community is obsessed with with inflated numbers which are used to make a lot of money and very few users question it. I was big into the SRT8 community years ago and the appendage-waving contest wasn't nearly as bad as in this community. My 241WHP @ 2750lbs ran a trap speed of 104mph in hot air. The "400WHP BT meth fed via a well known e-tuner" FoST at the track ran a 107MPH trap speed. Something doesn't add up.

I LOVE my ATP 2554 because I don't have that massive donkey kick of torque that uselessly spins tires. I don't need or want that much torque below 3K because is it useless at WOT for autox and track days.

BTW, I saw your reddit post with your wheels. I WANT!!!
I am finding that too in the fiesta st world. But I think most aftermarket communities deal with it to some degree. Whether it be in cars, sports, whatever. That's why I am stuck right now because I am still filtering through all the bullshit.
 


OP
OffTheWall503

OffTheWall503

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Thread Starter #20
I wholeheartedly agree with you regarding v-dynos. They should not be taken as gospel, but rather used as (very) rough benchmarks. I too dyno'd stock, after a tune and then after modifications at the same dyno over the course of 2-3 months. I won't listen to power claims if it's through the cheesy, inaccurate "v-dyno."

To be honest, I think my numbers are slightly inflated but I am staying consistent by doing runs at the same dyno and shop.
 




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