6 months in: The uselessness of torque in FWD cars

[Hijinx]

About once a month a thread like this comes around. And approximately one week later a new flavor comes out and the very same people are all over it. Just an observation.

I'm going to make my own now.


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[M-Sport fan]

I agree with the original post to a great degree but also as mentioned a lower cost turbo upgrade would be on my list, Cyborg or X37 and a shorter and firmer shifter, some like the stock setup but I found it a bit to loose and long for my taste.

I could not agree more with the bolded above!!

It is why I will have the FULL boomba racing Ultimate shifter kit waiting for this car on delivery, and IF someone made one even 'tighter' and shorter throw than theirs (IF that is even possible with a cable shifted FWD gearbox), I would buy it in a heartbeat BEFORE any and all power upgrades!

 

[Based]

I could not agree more with the bolded above!!

It is why I will have the FULL boomba racing Ultimate shifter kit waiting for this car on delivery, and IF someone made one even 'tighter' and shorter throw than theirs (IF that is even possible with a cable shifted FWD gearbox), I would buy it in a heartbeat BEFORE any and all power upgrades!

I actually like a longer shift. I liked it in my Miata and I like it in this car. It just makes it feel even more involved than just a super quick shift. The engine doesn't rev down fast enough for a shorter shift to matter anyway.

 

[M-Sport fan]

We have Mishimoto who cashed out on anything and everything possible. $500 oil coolers, I'm currently making my own for about $150 if that.. $500 for a radiator, because they know it's the only one available right now.
We, as a whole community, need to start questioning all vendors. No matter their reputation. Otherwise we will continue to be blindly ripped off

THANK YOU for the above, especially the bolded part!

It's actually OVER $500.00, and that is for something still made in CHINA!
For the LSx community, the upgraded, aftermarket radiators are around the same cost, but at least they are made HERE, and they are larger as well, with more rows, and are TOP SHELF quality for that price.

We REALLY need some more competition in the radiator, and oil cooler kit areas for these cars, all the more critical due to the excessive heat they produce stock, let alone when modded!

 

[BronxBomber]

THANK YOU for the above, especially the bolded part!

It's actually OVER $500.00, and that is for something still made in CHINA!
For the LSx community, the upgraded, aftermarket radiators are around the same cost, but at least they are made HERE, and they are larger as well, with more rows, and are TOP SHELF quality for that price.

We REALLY need some more competition in the radiator, and oil cooler kit areas for these cars, all the more critical due to the excessive heat they produce stock, let alone when modded!

While I don't like paying a fortune for parts, I've purchased quite a few different parts from Mishimoto, and at least they are quality parts. Welds are top notch, instructions and install videos, dyno results and top notch packaging all play a role in pricing. Not to mention that the community is so small so there are vastly fewer parts sold for our cars than for anything with a GM LS motor. It's not even close. Basic economics. If you sell large quantities, you can bring the price down and still make a profit. When you're dealing with such small sales numbers, you have to charge a little more to make a profit.

 

[OffTheWall503]

people in the Depo thread have said that they only get +2 above ambient I think... Can't really remember. Supposedly it's a rebranded CPE.

Regardless I'm not spending $900 on an intercooler because I'm not tracking my car. Just wanting to slay some mustangs lol or at least try.

From my research, the Depo and MTC intercoolers are exactly the same, both Cobb replicas. The only difference is the branding on the Cobb endtanks.

 

[M-Sport fan]

Sure about that? I thought it was said that it's a rebranded Cobb core. The FoST Depo IC I believe is said to be a rebranded cp-e IC.

So is CP-E lying about their ICs being 100% totally and completely made here, in the U.S. (cores, end tanks, labor, etc.)??

How can anything made overseas (Depo) possibly be a re-branded CP-E, if those are made HERE?!?

 

[OffTheWall503]

See post above, haha!

Also I agree on the quality of Mishimoto, but I've always bought their parts from Amazon or another authorized retailer at a discount.

 

[bluestang]

I'm not a fan of reading about issues with the Mishimoto intakes on the 2016 FiST. Should never had been released without fully tested and verified working correctly. Instead the community had to be the testers and figure the solution out for them. Sorry, but that's not top of the line in quality.

This is a very informative thread and lots of great info learned already. I have been taking notes for whenever I can get my FiST. Thanks everyone.

 

[M-Sport fan]

^^^Yes, exactly!

Also, it bothers me that they build these parts for next to nothing, in a (still?) third world country, and then charge MORE for them on top of that, regardless of whatever Q.C. oversight, or micro management they exert over the Sino build processes, because they "are the ONLY game in town".

AGAIN, why we need much more competition in this area (radiators, oil coolers,etc.) for our cars.

 

[BronxBomber]

Not enough demand to warrant people making stuff for our cars. To each his own. I have various parts from various vendors on my car. I don't side with just one company. I'm no fanboy. But I do appreciate the fact that they even make parts for our cars. If you think they're too expensive, you can choose not to buy them and fabricate your own stuff. If rather have an expensive part available than no part. Just as a comparison, I work for a shop and I had a customer come in wih a leaking radiator on a 2009 370Z. My shop price on an aftermarket radiator was $524. This is for a cheap aftermarket rad, not a high performance one. So expense is all relative. Just because our cars are relatively inexpensive, doesn't mean we should expect all the parts to be inexpensive as well, especially when most parts have to be specially made for our application and don't work for any other make or model. You should see how much some parts cost for other inexpensive cars. Some parts on a Kia Rio are ridiculous and hat car only costs $16,000. Just saying.

 

[M-Sport fan]

Not enough demand to warrant people making stuff for our cars. To each his own. I have various parts from various vendors on my car. I don't side with just one company. I'm no fanboy. But I do appreciate the fact that they even make parts for our cars. If you think they're too expensive, you can choose not to buy them and fabricate your own stuff. If rather have an expensive part available than no part. Just as a comparison, I work for a shop and I had a customer come in wih a leaking radiator on a 2009 370Z. My shop price on an aftermarket radiator was $524. This is for a cheap aftermarket rad, not a high performance one. So expense is all relative. Just because our cars are relatively inexpensive, doesn't mean we should expect all the parts to be inexpensive as well, especially when most parts have to be specially made for our application and don't work for any other make or model. You should see how much some parts cost for other inexpensive cars. Some parts on a Kia Rio are ridiculous and hat car only costs $16,000. Just saying.

UNDERSTOOD, and YES, I do appreciate anything being made for these cars.

But, the el cheapo, OEM replacement style radiators for the 4th gen f bodies are < $100.00 RETAIL (and sourced from more expensive labor rate; Mexico, or Canada, NOT cheaper CHINA), and they are the ONLY model which can use that size/fit radiator, and although yes, there were more made of them over their 4 year run (9 years total if you count the slightly different radiator in the early LT1 cars) than FiSTs so far, they still are not as common as an 'appliance for the masses' Camry, or Accord.

Maybe I will just wait the half year it takes for 2J Racing to build me one of theirs, and request that it be modded by them to be a TOTAL 'drop-in' without any modding on my part needed to make it fit.

 

[Truth in Ruin]

Some real info came out on this thread. It's nice to see a few people with personal experience calling out the BS.

 

[Based]

Some real info came out on this thread. It's nice to see a few people with personal experience calling out the BS.

I don't have experience in the fiesta st community yet but I have been through it in several other aftermarket communities. I get better at getting through the bs every time I go to something new. You get used to it after a while lol.

I just ask as many questions as I can to as many different people as I can and just try to be smart about who I throw my money at.

 

[RAAMaudio]

I did not want to wait or pay the high price for the J2(made by a very good radiator manf) so I DIY'd an older Celica Mishimoto. Of course I went beyond what most would do, but in the end I spent around 80 hours on the install, ducted, used stock fan, made a new bottom for the stock core support for far better flow, lowered the radiator, new mounts for the oil cooler....

It costs the same for R&D for a high volume item as a low volume item so part of the higher price is just costs spread out, then if no real competition that can move it up a bit as well. I would of gladly paid the asking price for the Mishimoto and spent a few hours installing it. I would not of had to move the oil cooler, rebuild the core support, change all the ducting I had already done for the stock setup....

 

[Dj4Monie]

These sorts of threads crack me up.

Hijink is one of the most level headed posters on this, the Focus ST forum or Vortex.

Telling others what they should use their car for is from some might high horse some people are on, when I'm pretty sure I can beat them doing anything they think I should be doing with my car, IE track days and auto-x make drivers; okay put money on it and I'll make sure I whoop your as*.

A 400hp Focus ST doing mid 13's at 113 mph is doing sh*t ass backwards. I do drag race my car and take it seriously, I bought slicks as my first mod. In California we have crappy gas, down 10-15 hp to the cars with 93 available, sorry that's not acceptable; I got a E30 tune.

I see 3rd owner SRT-4's at the track with street tires, this is comical. Rarely would original owners of these cars go to the strip without at least drag radials but most found that was almost as pointless as regular street tires and very expensive.

I can certainly say that HDPE's are expensive for no reason really and auto-x is too limiting if you like making power. That leaves drag racing where there aren't any rules, just the one's made up in your head unless you're really trying to run a class. But you won't be competitive to a bunch of cut up Hondas in most cases, stick to brackets and test-n-tunes.

My Focus ST has run 13.4 on the stock turbo, tune and slicks. Nothing removed...

I have my second of three first round modifications coming soon; I got everything here.

That said I'm going to try to run a 13 flat before I install that. I've been to the dyno once and that basically confirmed my water-meth nozzle was too small; it's just as fast on WMI as it is on E30.

These cars don't need much and while I agree both Cobb and Mountune take advantage of the ignorance of this new generation of car enthusiast, they continue to offer parts when other companies don't, other than a couple of one-man operations out there.

The best bang for the buck is a tune and down pipe. Then tires for your application, you will wheel hop on street tires and that breaks things if you drag race, Pat who I met at Fontana two weeks go broke a motor mount.

I run slicks and stock mounts, no additional NVH to deal with and my best 60 ft times are 1.761 and 1.779. Besides 15" slicks are cheap about $120 each or so, compared to the 17" slicks I had to buy for the Focus ST ($233 each), you'll save your street tires from the additional wear, it won't wheel hop and you can't get 1.xx out of street tires. I think Fiesta ST with larger turbos need to make more torque or go to a track with better prep cause 1.8x isn't that great on slicks.

 

[BronxBomber]

These sorts of threads crack me up.

Hijink is one of the most level headed posters on this, the Focus ST forum or Vortex.

Telling others what they should use their car for is from some might high horse some people are on, when I'm pretty sure I can beat them doing anything they think I should be doing with my car, IE track days and auto-x make drivers; okay put money on it and I'll make sure I whoop your as*.

A 400hp Focus ST doing mid 13's at 113 mph is doing sh*t ass backwards. I do drag race my car and take it seriously, I bought slicks as my first mod. In California we have crappy gas, down 10-15 hp to the cars with 93 available, sorry that's not acceptable; I got a E30 tune.

I see 3rd owner SRT-4's at the track with street tires, this is comical. Rarely would original owners of these cars go to the strip without at least drag radials but most found that was almost as pointless as regular street tires and very expensive.

I can certainly say that HDPE's are expensive for no reason really and auto-x is too limiting if you like making power. That leaves drag racing where there aren't any rules, just the one's made up in your head unless you're really trying to run a class. But you won't be competitive to a bunch of cut up Hondas in most cases, stick to brackets and test-n-tunes.

My Focus ST has run 13.4 on the stock turbo, tune and slicks. Nothing removed...

I have my second of three first round modifications coming soon; I got everything here.

That said I'm going to try to run a 13 flat before I install that. I've been to the dyno once and that basically confirmed my water-meth nozzle was too small; it's just as fast on WMI as it is on E30.

These cars don't need much and while I agree both Cobb and Mountune take advantage of the ignorance of this new generation of car enthusiast, they continue to offer parts when other companies don't, other than a couple of one-man operations out there.

The best bang for the buck is a tune and down pipe. Then tires for your application, you will wheel hop on street tires and that breaks things if you drag race, Pat who I met at Fontana two weeks go broke a motor mount.

I run slicks and stock mounts, no additional NVH to deal with and my best 60 ft times are 1.761 and 1.779. Besides 15" slicks are cheap about $120 each or so, compared to the 17" slicks I had to buy for the Focus ST ($233 each), you'll save your street tires from the additional wear, it won't wheel hop and you can't get 1.xx out of street tires. I think Fiesta ST with larger turbos need to make more torque or go to a track with better prep cause 1.8x isn't that great on slicks.

You know what cracks me up??? Your post. What the hell was the point?? To tell us all that you're awesome at drag racing?? In your mind drag racing is the only worthwhile thing to do with your car. You have a Focus ST, not a FiST. Downpipes don't do sh1t for our cars unless you're going big turbo. As for RMM, they are routinely referred to as one of the best mods for our cars. I just put one in after 16,000 miles and love the feel and directness. Also eliminates wheel hop. To each their own. I'm all about HPDE and racing on a track. This is where I can wring my car out and judge every facet of its performance and mods I've performed on it. Is it cheap? That's all relative. You try renting out an entire racetrack for the day. You provide instructors and lunch for everyone and tell me how much it comes out to. HPDE isn't for everyone, just like autocross and drag racing aren't either. Some people want to leave their cars stock, some want to concentrate on handling, and some just want to add blow off valve adapters, wing risers, and stickers to their cars. Like I said to each his own. Their is no one right way to mod these cars. If you have specific objectives, i.e. 300 whp, there are certain proven ways to achieve them and/or go about it. But for anyone on this forum to say that these cars should be used for this and not that, they're just talking opinion. Unless you're trying to tow with your FiST, then I'd say to you you're effin' nuts!

 

[jmrtsus]

DJ4Monie......."These cars don't need much and while I agree both Cobb and Mountune take advantage of the ignorance of this new generation of car enthusiast, they continue to offer parts when other companies don't, other than a couple of one-man operations out there."

I think this is a cheap shot at Mountune....just what "ignorant" car enthusiasts are you talking about? The ones that have been down the road of warranty denials for mods and are willing to pay a premium for proven, reliable, WARRANTED performance seems to me to be pretty intelligent not ignorant. They back their products and customer service is second to none. Unlike some of the suppliers on this forum they do not collect orders then build and ship untested devices. My one experience with these suppliers has been enough.

Keep in mind very few Fiesta ST owners will do much to their cars, I will never drop the clutch on my car to see what kind of 0-60 times I can get. I am more concerned about third gear acceleration for passing and fun on the TOTD. So the MP215 is perfect for me. The programmer is in the glove box and the whole tune is invisible. I will do no other performance mods as I find my car is absolutly wonderful for its purpose in life. At one time I would have been looking to get 300 WHP out of the car........but those were long ago. I no longer spend too much time and money on cars as being old and retired limits my ability to do much wrenching and the FiST is already too fast for the TOTD and my slowing reflexes. The point being that every member of this forum has different goals and purposes for their car. This and other FiST forums are mainly performance oriented and I love this forum because of the information available, for example we will all need shocks and tires sooner than most cars so learning what works well and is affordable helps us all. I used this forum and other research to help me decide on the MP215. Was it expensive? Expense is relative, 18-20 HP and the torque increments came out FOR ME at $1000 plus a case of beer! That is $50 per HP, not bad but any further increases get much more expensive and kills my warranty. And the difference in performance are real and easily felt and measured.

So back to the question....what has Mountune done to us ignorant folks to take advantage of us? What am I missing here?

 

[Hijinx]

DJ4Monie......."These cars don't need much and while I agree both Cobb and Mountune take advantage of the ignorance of this new generation of car enthusiast, they continue to offer parts when other companies don't, other than a couple of one-man operations out there."

I think this is a cheap shot at Mountune....just what "ignorant" car enthusiasts are you talking about? The ones that have been down the road of warranty denials for mods and are willing to pay a premium for proven, reliable, WARRANTED performance seems to me to be pretty intelligent not ignorant. They back their products and customer service is second to none. Unlike some of the suppliers on this forum they do not collect orders then build and ship untested devices. My one experience with these suppliers has been enough.

Keep in mind very few Fiesta ST owners will do much to their cars, I will never drop the clutch on my car to see what kind of 0-60 times I can get. I am more concerned about third gear acceleration for passing and fun on the TOTD. So the MP215 is perfect for me. The programmer is in the glove box and the whole tune is invisible. I will do no other performance mods as I find my car is absolutly wonderful for its purpose in life. At one time I would have been looking to get 300 WHP out of the car........but those were long ago. I no longer spend too much time and money on cars as being old and retired limits my ability to do much wrenching and the FiST is already too fast for the TOTD and my slowing reflexes. The point being that every member of this forum has different goals and purposes for their car. This and other FiST forums are mainly performance oriented and I love this forum because of the information available, for example we will all need shocks and tires sooner than most cars so learning what works well and is affordable helps us all. I used this forum and other research to help me decide on the MP215. Was it expensive? Expense is relative, 18-20 HP and the torque increments came out FOR ME at $1000 plus a case of beer! That is $50 per HP, not bad but any further increases get much more expensive and kills my warranty. And the difference in performance are real and easily felt and measured.

So back to the question....what has Mountune done to us ignorant folks to take advantage of us? What am I missing here?

Not so long ago Mountune parts (USDM) were not warranty friendly, yet they still cost just as much or more before they got their contract.

HOWEVER, I DO think it's a great option that their parts are, without question, warranty friendly. This means that I'm not for or against Mountune as I would never run their parts, but having that "warranty safe" sticker helps more people mod. I commented to state a fact that you may not have known.


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[Dj4Monie]

You know what cracks me up??? Your post. What the hell was the point?? To tell us all that you're awesome at drag racing?? In your mind drag racing is the only worthwhile thing to do with your car. You have a Focus ST, not a FiST. Downpipes don't do sh1t for our cars unless you're going big turbo. As for RMM, they are routinely referred to as one of the best mods for our cars. I just put one in after 16,000 miles and love the feel and directness. Also eliminates wheel hop. To each their own. I'm all about HPDE and racing on a track. This is where I can wring my car out and judge every facet of its performance and mods I've performed on it. Is it cheap? That's all relative. You try renting out an entire racetrack for the day. You provide instructors and lunch for everyone and tell me how much it comes out to. HPDE isn't for everyone, just like autocross and drag racing aren't either. Some people want to leave their cars stock, some want to concentrate on handling, and some just want to add blow off valve adapters, wing risers, and stickers to their cars. Like I said to each his own. Their is no one right way to mod these cars. If you have specific objectives, i.e. 300 whp, there are certain proven ways to achieve them and/or go about it. But for anyone on this forum to say that these cars should be used for this and not that, they're just talking opinion. Unless you're trying to tow with your FiST, then I'd say to you you're effin' nuts!

You can do whatever you want. I said, I FIND auto-x limiting. I said, I FIND HPDE's to be expensive for no particular reason.

At some point I may do all the above for difference reasons.

Also this thread is not talking to sticker bombers and those with wing risers, it's the OP's problem with those of us that choose to drag race/power production/dyno/standing mile, which happens on every FWD car forums, but for three.