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Fiesta ST makes C&D "Important cars of the last decade" list

Dpro

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#41
Wasn't this post about car and driver I'll post a picture of a car driver article. See if you can spot the numbers they posted wrong by adding a extra digit. The first article I ever read about the Focus ST its brakes overheated so bad on the track from the torque vectoring they couldn't even drive it back, it left on a tow truck. Everything in this world has a pro and con a Mustang is a lot more likely to kill you than a hot hatchback. A Focus ST is much more likely to overheat its brakes than a Fiesta ST. I really don't care which one of y'all has the biggest dick, so stop acting like truck owners who have a measuring tape on their belt so they can measure each other's hot dog.


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I was the one that said let’s agree to disagree . But.... he can’t seem to let it go. I am not going to entertain responding directly to him. I probably should put him on my ignore list. lol

He also likes to misconstrue stuff because I never quote said the FiST was faster than A: a Mustang and B a FoST. In a straight line stock for stock both cars will out accelerate a FiST. Though in a corner we all know a FiST will dominate. lol

This completely reminds of the Datsun 510 that had neither the straightline speed of the Alfa GTV or the braking of the BMW 2002 but managed to kill both in the corners and win races and championships by doing so .
 


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#42
I was the one that said let’s agree to disagree . But.... he can’t seem to let it go. I am not going to entertain responding directly to him. I probably should put him on my ignore list. lol

He also likes to misconstrue stuff because I never quote said the FiST was faster than A: a Mustang and B a FoST. In a straight line stock for stock both cars will out accelerate a FiST. Though in a corner we all know a FiST will dominate. lol

This completely reminds of the Datsun 510 that had neither the straightline speed of the Alfa GTV or the braking of the BMW 2002 but managed to kill both in the corners and win races and championships by doing so .
You probably should put me on your ignore list because you can't give any ( ANY) empirical or anecdotal evidence that a FiST handles better than a FoST (or EB). This is why I won't "agree to disagree." There is a wealth of HARD evidence (lap times, performance reviews) backing up my position. There is literally NONE supporting yours........

As far as misconstruing you? Really? How? Our positions have been consistent; I have said the FoST handles better, you say it doesn't. I have presented evidence, you haven't.......

An your analogy is flawed; the FoST tops the FiST in every performance metric. The FiST just "feels" faster/more fun (which it does BTW).

So ignore me, block me, w/e. It almost feels like I am arguing with an anti-vaxxer at this point. I give/offer evidence, you refuse to even acknowledge it........

To anyone else reading this; I think this paragraph sums it up perfectly;

"The Focus ST is faster on the typical canyon road and the autocross. I have tested this and the Focus will almost always come out on top. The wider track and larger engine really help it dominate the autocross. The proper independent rear suspension gives the Focus ST a massive advantage when driving at the limit. However, to some, it doesn’t “feel” that fast which is fairly hard to even explain. It’s definitely fast enough to get you in trouble on the street, but sometimes it doesn’t feel like it. A car that “feels” fast will always be more fun than a car that is fast."

https://dustrunnersauto.com/fiesta-st-vs-focus-st-hot-hatch-actually-better/
 


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#44
Bang for the buck and the "feeling" when "going for it" on a windy bit of asphalt, I can def see how the FiST makes the list. Although the line "You get what you pay for" also has it's merits.
So the FiST "feels" faster than the FoST & EB Stang, but has lower performance numbers than both according to various sources. It's the cheapest as well. Makes sense. The FoST is dead center on all counts along with the EB Stang on top. Again, makes sense. All are extremely responsive to after market tuning, which is great.

Some qwik weight-to-HP and HP/L ratios:
FiST=13.81 & 123.13
FoST=12.79 & 126
EB Mustang=11.37 & 134.78

One thing for sure ist hat F/R layout trumps FWD when the goal is harnessing power and drive traction. Weight transfers to where it can be utilized best, assuming F/R weight balance isn't ridiculous. Controlling the breaking point of traction with throttle along with some steering finesse without the sketchy FWD torque steer is another plus.
Don't see too many 300+HP FWD cars being put out by manufacturers. There are a few, but that layout has just about reached its peak. M/R, M/AWD with a likely rear bias, or just tried and true F/R are where it's at.

An EB Stang with the basic "Stage 2" bolt-ons and a revised tune yielding ~350HP & ~400lb/ft of torque is hardly a deathtrap:). A GT350 in the wrong hands, or even experienced hands, that's another thing.
 


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Ford ST

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#45
Low-end torque in rear wheel drive vehicles is what gets people in trouble.

A EcoBoost Mustang is more likely to lose its rear end especially with a tune than a GT350 for multiple reasons. One of those reasons is low-end torque the GT350 doesn't have it.
I had a EcoBoost premium Mustang for a week as a rental. I see how people playing stupid get in trouble. I love my hot hatchback.

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#46
Well, at least we can say that not only that the car made the C&D “list” but that the car is related to WRC car which is something that cannot be claimed by the other cars mentioned (excluding the old Focus)


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#47
Everyone here bringing up cornering and lateral g’s needs to remember. A ‘g’ is a function of the weight of the car. That is ultimately effected by the amount of tire, the type of tire, the tire compound, the weight (and subsequent distribution of weight) and the surface.

Now all three cars (as tested by most magazines) come equipped with summer rubber, so we can assume for the sake of the argument that compound-wise they’re similar enough that no specific compound (between the Goodyear Eagle F1, Bridgestone Potenza, and the Pirelli P Zero) offers a significant advantage compared to any of the other compounds. Where they differ is the section width.

To simplify this part, I’m going to assume that each tire will deflect a similar amount when it touches the ground. I’m going to assume that the area of the contact patch is going to be the section width of the tire, multiplied by 5 mm. That number will then be multiplied by 4 since you’d see max cornering g’s when all 4 wheels are touching.

Mustang EB PP has a 265 section width giving it’s total contact patch an area of 5300 mm^2 or 1325 mm^2 per tire.

Focus ST has a section width or 235 giving it a total contact patch of 4700 mm^2 or 1175 mm^2 per tire.

Fiesta ST has a section width of 205 giving it a total contact patch of 4100 mm^2 or 1025mm^2 per tire.

Additionally the mustang is going to have both the best weight distribution and the most weight, this will mean that overall it should put up the best handling numbers with ease. It will also have the most inertia, since inertia is a resistance to change in acceleration, this is the thing that hurts driver involvement.

So, in the purpose of this comparison the Focus and Fiesta should be the closest in terms of handling and driver feeling, not surprising. What I personally find surprising is that the FoST 14% more tire, only holds on for an additional .04g’s compared to the FiST.

Yes, it’s faster in both the straights and the curves, but it appears to only be a difference of tires as far as the curves go.


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#48
Everyone here bringing up cornering and lateral g’s needs to remember. A ‘g’ is a function of the weight of the car. That is ultimately effected by the amount of tire, the type of tire, the tire compound, the weight (and subsequent distribution of weight) and the surface.

Now all three cars (as tested by most magazines) come equipped with summer rubber, so we can assume for the sake of the argument that compound-wise they’re similar enough that no specific compound (between the Goodyear Eagle F1, Bridgestone Potenza, and the Pirelli P Zero) offers a significant advantage compared to any of the other compounds. Where they differ is the section width.

To simplify this part, I’m going to assume that each tire will deflect a similar amount when it touches the ground. I’m going to assume that the area of the contact patch is going to be the section width of the tire, multiplied by 5 mm. That number will then be multiplied by 4 since you’d see max cornering g’s when all 4 wheels are touching.

Mustang EB PP has a 265 section width giving it’s total contact patch an area of 5300 mm^2 or 1325 mm^2 per tire.

Focus ST has a section width or 235 giving it a total contact patch of 4700 mm^2 or 1175 mm^2 per tire.

Fiesta ST has a section width of 205 giving it a total contact patch of 4100 mm^2 or 1025mm^2 per tire.

Additionally the mustang is going to have both the best weight distribution and the most weight, this will mean that overall it should put up the best handling numbers with ease. It will also have the most inertia, since inertia is a resistance to change in acceleration, this is the thing that hurts driver involvement.

So, in the purpose of this comparison the Focus and Fiesta should be the closest in terms of handling and driver feeling, not surprising. What I personally find surprising is that the FoST 14% more tire, only holds on for an additional .04g’s compared to the FiST.

Yes, it’s faster in both the straights and the curves, but it appears to only be a difference of tires as far as the curves go.


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All of this makes sense to me although I would also like to know how IRS factors into this.

EDIT: I want to apologize for derailing this thread and coming off as a douche. This all started when I made an initial comparison thread between my FiST and FoST and i got A LOT of push back when I said the FoST handled better. It was a surprising observation to me then and it still holds true today. When I take my FiST on twisty roads it feels like I am going faster but, when I take the time to actually pay attention to my speeds it's clear that I am going faster (not by a lot mind you) in my FoST. Coming full circle (back on topic) this actually speaks to the unique quality of the FiST. According to C&D there are 200+ vehicles which "perform" better than the FiST but only a fraction of those could legitimately be considered more fun to drive. It really is a special little car.
 


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#49
I simply do not understand you; I really don't. Have you even taken a few minutes to just google the lap times on these two cares? Have read any of the professional publications which have reviewed them? Have you checked out some of the "amateur" youtube videos which have compared them?

Virtually ALL of them show/say the same thing; FoST is faster, FiST is more fun (this includes the twistys).

I mean seriously; why would Motortrend show the FoST with a better lateral G and figure 8? Those guys LOVE the FiST and were lukewarm (at best) about the FoST so, if anything, they are biased in favor of the FiST

I may be the only one on these forums saying the FoST handles better but I am most certainly not the "only" one saying that. I am at a lose.... go to fastlaps.com, go to C/D, go to M/T. If I remember correctly there was even a FiST owner on these forums who went to the Octane Academy and got faster times in a FoST.

Point blank question; why do you think the FiST is faster in the turns? Is it simply anecdotal evidence? Because virtually ALL evidence beyond that says otherwise..........

Sorry but your just wrong, period. FoST has faster lap times on almost all tracks, FoST pulls higher G's, a better Figure 8, IRS, and more power.

In Closing;

The Ford Fiesta ST is more fun to drive than a Focus ST

.....but it's not faster!
My ideal First would have the FoST powertrain and a helical LSD. That "ideal" FiST would also have a wheelbase that's about three inches longer.
 


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#50
All of this makes sense to me although I would also like to know how IRS factors into this.

EDIT: I want to apologize for derailing this thread and coming off as a douche. This all started when I made an initial comparison thread between my FiST and FoST and i got A LOT of push back when I said the FoST handled better. It was a surprising observation to me then and it still holds true today. When I take my FiST on twisty roads it feels like I am going faster but, when I take the time to actually pay attention to my speeds it's clear that I am going faster (not by a lot mind you) in my FoST. Coming full circle (back on topic) this actually speaks to the unique quality of the FiST. According to C&D there are 200+ vehicles which "perform" better than the FiST but only a fraction of those could legitimately be considered more fun to drive. It really is a special little car.
Ok so independent rear suspension, which both the Focus ST and the Mustang have allows more flexibility on the various alignment measurements, specifically camber and toe. The suspension is free to operate without significant influence from whatever forces are being applied to the tire on the opposite side of the car (technically a sway bar also links the two ends of the axle together and will induce some suspension load forces to cross the axle
via the sway bar). So this is all a long way to say that there’s not a solid connection that will transmit vibrations or bumps that are happening on one side of the axle to the other. This gives the tires a better ability to independently react to whatever surface they are operating on and that in turn allows the suspension engineers to get the contact patch to maximize over a wider array of variables vs something with a solid rear axle or torsion beam rear which the FiST has.

The torsion beam is one of the primary reason the FiST lifts the outside rear tire during hard cornering. Since there’s a big beam connecting both sides of the suspension, you see in extreme circumstances exactly how much of an effect that can have from one side to the other. Ford’s suspension engineers have figured out that, to a degree, this can have positive characteristics: like the FiST’s willingness to rotate (compared to most FWD vehicles). It rotates because as the forces build across the torsion beam, the outside tire has less and less pressure pushing it down, which reduces the total grip of the rear axle. Eventually the torsion force in the beam is great enough to lift the outside corner of the car (and tire) giving you the tripod you experience in hard corners. The nice thing about FWD is that if you lose grip on the rear, all you have to do is feed throttle to straighten it out because as you accelerate, weight shifts rearward and then you add grip to the rear axle. Makes for a very controllable slide if you pay attention to what you are doing.


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#51
13 weeks because the internal bearings went on a quality hold and unavailable. 13 weeks because what am I going to replace the ST with from Ford, an Ecosport? 13 weeks because it was the 1st attempt at Ford fixing the problem - Lemon Law would not take effect until it couldn't be repaired following a 3rd attempt. 13 weeks, 2 pages of repair parts (to be fair - every bolt they cracked, they replaced, washers, nuts, etc). Read all the tranny-related posts; start with the recommended fill level discussion. This is a cheap car with a great engine, lots of add-ons, fun and not hard to work on, but the tranny? She is junk. Find a ford engineer to discuss this with, they'll agree.
Maybe yours is but sooo many others say otherwise

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jeff

jeff

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Thread Starter #52
See here now, we have one of the 26 most awesome cars on the road, according to somebody...

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g30432214/favorite-cars-of-the-decade/?slide=7

2017 Ford Fiesta ST
"The Ford Fiesta ST was like an overeager puppy bounding out of the house for a walk. I relished any chance to get behind the wheel of one, and I can't think of another car I drove this decade that provided me with so much enjoyment. Its exciting power delivery, responsive steering, and diminutive size made it joyfully responsive and playful. The sport-compact segment lost its MVP when Ford decided to drop its entire passenger-car lineup, and the fact that a new Fiesta ST is available in Europe just makes that loss even more painful for us Yanks."
Maybe getting back on topic, this guy in post #1 was talking about how our car is one of C&Ds favorite cars of the last decade. It's interesting to me, who reads a good deal about cars, to notice what cars were NOT on this list - e.g. the Golf R, the Subaru 86 variants, the Focus ST - that just makes the Fiesta ST shine even more!!!
 


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#53
Maybe getting back on topic, this guy in post #1 was talking about how our car is one of C&Ds favorite cars of the last decade. It's interesting to me, who reads a good deal about cars, to notice what cars were NOT on this list - e.g. the Golf R, the Subaru 86 variants, the Focus ST - that just makes the Fiesta ST shine even more!!!
Couldn't agree more. I never got a chance to test drive a FoST before a nice FiST showed up on my radar. Not sure if the extra weight and price would have swayed my decision as the FiST is a blast to throw into a turn. I got carried away last night and was pulled over in Chicago. The cop was cool though, he told me to slow it down and be safe.
 


M-Sport fan

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#54
Well, at least we can say that not only that the car made the C&D “list” but that the car is related to WRC car which is something that cannot be claimed by the other cars mentioned (excluding the old Focus)


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Actually, even the much vaunted WRX/STI Scoobies cannot claim ANY current WRC cred, since they have not been in the game since 2010.
(I know it was not on this list, but so many consider it the quintessential 'rally car' of all time.)

But yes, BEFORE then they were all-in, and champions, and they do currently dominate here in the states in ARA rallying since Subaru USA puts countless coin into the Vermont Sportscar prep/support operation, 'buys' the best drivers/co-drivers, and gives R&D support to their squad with all of those Scoobie profits in this land.

They are also the ONLY car you see the spectators, and most of the workers driving at the ARA events, to the point that it makes me feel great being different, and driving something other than a 6 star product. [wink] [;)]

Ford, on the other hand lends NOTHING whatsoever to any U.S. based rally team's efforts. [:(]
 


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