How much power is the sweet spot for most real world use in this car?

[RAAMaudio]

I had a goal of 350WHP to be at the same power to weight ratio of the Turbo Porsche so one could not run away from me on track, drag racing then slow in the corners is what I have seen far to much off and hard to get around them....The EFR put me in the same power to weight ratio as a C7 Vette just on 91 octane but it was pretty laggy then mid band donkey kick making it exciting but a bit dangerous at times with the torque steer so I decided to go WMI and the GT2560R with billet wheel upgrade with a goal of 350WHP if possible on 91 and WMI.

4200 ft elevation is not helping reach that goal, so far just 293 WHP and 252 ft lbs and laggy like the EFR with less torque but once it spools up it pulls quite hard, rev to 7000 or more and it drops nicely into the torque curve so nearly as quick as the EFR when driven right. Likely to sell the car soon but have considered the GTX with the smaller A/R as it seems to work better at altitude but now really looking at the C 37 or.....

The below is something I seldom would consider doing but it was a very safe place and I just had to see what it could really do so I broke one of my own rules about only playing with other cars on track.

Yesterday while in Mexico I ended up beside a current model M5, rated at 560HP, it was a DSG version, stop light on a divided highway, wide open road ahead. We looked at each other and I motioned to go for it and we did and as expected he was two car lengths ahead almost immediately though the lag helped me hook up and start pulling back up, hit second and pulled ahead, hit third, let off at around 85, 2-3 lengths ahead. I jammed on the brakes as it was a 65 zone down to the limit, he slowed and pulled up beside me and gave me a big thumbs up and smile

I looked in the mirror and low and behold, must of been well hidden, no lights, guy in the BMW dropped back behind me, officer pulled up even and did some kind of signal, came up by me and did the same, pointing at his eyes, the road, me....telling me he saw it all and take it easy then he punched it and took off, whew!

My turn off was coming up, guy in the BMW pulled up as I was slowing and gave me an even bigger thumbs up and smile and then went on down the road.

My car hooks up really well for street tires unless I intentionally do a burn out in 1st gear which I have done only once or twice in 2.5 years, second gear it barely spins, third it has chirped the tires a couple of times. Full suspension bushings, 8/7K Swift spring on BC coilovers, all engine and trans mounts done, LSD, 225 Rival S tires on 9" wide wheels with approx 8.25 tread width and super sticky. Pretty amazing acceleration when you have that kind of HP, it did the same with the EFR but pulled much harder down lower so easier to get it on with a wider power band. All the mods add up to putting the power to the ground, I have beaten hundreds of higher power to weight ratio cars over the decades because I build the whole car to use it well in all aspects, handling and brakes included.

Moral of this story, this car can be incredibly quick without massive HP if you set up the whole car to work as a package and 300WHP is more than enough for most any situation and much more than anyone really "needs" on public roads and on most road race tracks as well, drag racing is the main exception as long as the car can use it. Instead of looking at the most power one can get it is best to look at it from the most power more of the time that will do all you really need from the car for the least cost and hit on reliability then go out and have fun, on a track as I know I should only do.

This is the major reason I am likely selling the car soon, I am no longer going to track it as planned and I am not going to go hooning around in it either so this incredible little car I put together from the amazing FiST platform simply does not have a proper place in my life now. I love the car more than most I have built including far more costly cars like the C6 Vette I had a few years ago.

(It was fun to kick butt on a $95K car in my humble little FiST I have to admit

Have a great day!
Rick

 

[Crooked Letta]

Which suspension bushings do you done?

I too agree with this and this is the reason I plan to buy a FiST. I don't need crazy power for the type of driving I do, around 300whp is perfect with a thick power band. 4 things win races, Weight, Power, Traction and gearing. The Fist seems it can have it all with in reason. I'm not a drag racer more a mountain carver and in that aspect weight and grip are your friends. It gets kinda amusing watching a sport bike fall back in the mirror when things get really twisty, then climb back up on the straights only to disappear around the next hairpin.

 

[M-Sport fan]

Yes, 300 FULLY TRACTABLE whp is all I would ever want to have in this platform, and ONLY IF I already had an LSD in the transaxle.

I would rather spend my coin and effort to pull as much weight as possible out of the car than to throw gobs of power at it (less breaks using that method ).

 

[BronxBomber]

Well Rick, as I mentioned before, I'm sad to see you go. You've been an incredible asset to all of us on this forum. Regarding your question about power. I'm looking for approx. 300whp, but more importantly, I'm looking for the widest powerband I can get while keeping most of it to 7K RPM. My car as it stands with the Cyborg, Ported Manifold, supporting mods and E-30 is a hoot. That being said, it could use a bit more up top. Hopefully my Cyborg 39 will be all the power I need. Next step is DHM Race FMIC and weight reduction, followed by BBK and LSD and last but not least Mishimoto Race Rad and Oil Cooler. Well, I almost forgot my BC coilovers and chassis bracing. Modding is never really finished. There will always be something else.

 

[RAAMaudio]

Something to consider, look at my build thread, nearly everything one could do is done, some tweaking needed so the car needs to go to somebody that can take care of that or has funds to pay to have it done, good luck on finding a competent shop though. 6 race wheels and tires, 4 summer wheels and tires, 4 all season wheels and tires, under 10k miles, I am thinking $27k cash for it all and my support in anything needed. I am very attached to this car, the last one I sold mostly as built ended up being trashed by a dumb ass I was to blind to realize and I never want to sell a car to someone like that again, I want a real enthusiast that will give this car what it deserves.

------------

I have done a huge amount of mods, added and removed or relocated weight, F/R balance is better by 50 lbs moved to the rear at great cost and time, in the last few months and put maybe 200 miles on the car. I have race scales but no good place to use them right now but I think the weight is pretty close to the last time it was on them, 2575lbs.

Somewhere in the neighborhood of 800-1000 hours into it....or many more if counting online research, posting on this forum.....

--------------

I am not afraid of dying as I know I never really will, my body will eventually but not who I really am, I just have so much to live for in this current configuration. I am retired, full time RVing, incredibly wonderful and beautiful wife to enjoy the years I have left with her and our wonderful doggies and the amazing people we meet in our travels. I have had dreams and intuitions about a very hard crash on a track and I have learned to pay attention to such things but if I did not have such wonderful love in my life I waited forever for I would just go all out as I always do and go down knowing it was worth it.

 

[M-Sport fan]

Well Rick, as I mentioned before, I'm sad to see you go. You've been an incredible asset to all of us on this forum.

^^^Understatement of the decade!

 

[Hijinx]

450whp is the sweet spot for real world use. I'm right, and everyone else is wrong.

 

[Siestarider]

Great story Rick. You have enthused us with your build and words of experience.

I do not have a HP goal, just enjoying the trip. Finally ready to install better dampers, have an oil cooler experiment in the works, this car is more fun than any I have owned.

Some lucky enthusiast in your future sale.

 

[RAAMaudio]

Thank you so very much, it means a great deal to me as I live by my heart though sometime go astray and certainly not always right by any means but will gladly accept anyone's correction even if it takes a bit to settle in....

I do not see another highly modded car in my future but if I do it would likely be a mildly modded Miata, I have had 6 from very stock to full race, to cruise in the Sierra Nevadas

My next project is going to be a ten year old or so 5th wheel trailer making it something pretty cool to hang out in and after than an off the grid house built from the land it is on and recycled materials, no mortgage, not very big but very interesting to live in.....and a shop and green house, fish pond, grow most all we consume and share the excess with those we love.

 

[alphanumeric]

Well Rick, my wife and I are trying to get to Arizona in a couple years when we're done with our time here in Germany so if you really do end up there and want to drive a FiST for old time's sake then hop on the forum and shoot me a PM. You can drive mine anytime. My cyborg 39 is on it's way so it should be a pretty quick car by then!

As far as the original post I'm praying for 270 on 93 oct on the C 39 with some pretty decent torque numbers. I've always imagined 300whp/300tq would be the sweet spot for this car with some 9" wide super sticky tires.

 

[alphanumeric]

Unless of course you drag race...then what [MENTION=759]Hijinx[/MENTION] said haha.

 

[RAAMaudio]

We visit AZ, not every year but will at least every other year most likely and never know where we will stay but if there when you are it would be great to meet up, I always like meeting my fellow enthusiasts, especially on this site as so many great members

If you make 270WHP and have a great torque curve on the C 39 with 93 octane you will love it, a bit more and it starts to get to be a bit to much and it is easy to mask driving skill with power and think you are faster than taking the time to learn the limits of the car. I know that from experience, I have been a better driver with just enough power to balance out the package and right now with all my mods the car is a bit overpowered for them at times. Once back in the US there is just no safe place to use much more power and not get into trouble if not right away, eventually. The old adage, more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow has proven itself to me for close to 50 years.

The 225 Rival S will work on 15x8 but a bit better on 9's and widens the tread on the ground a bit, they hook up incredibly well for a street tire, amazing really but they are also a high maintenance, that is enough tire with LSD, engine and trans mounts and suspension mounts, etc...all contribute to the effectiveness of putting the power down.

The C6 Vette I put a widebody on, 335's on 18x13 rear wheels, 295 on 18x11.5 fronts, coilovers, all suspension bushings, aluminum steering rack bushings, trick sway bars, very carefully aligned, built diff/LSD with much lower gears, headers, intake, exhaust, tune and pulleys, LS2, was much quicker than my buddies Z06 that was also tuned as my car could use the power so much better. It also rode considerably better, far better steering feedback, more grip in all aspects...It only had around 400WHP but used it incredibly well, next I was going to do a head and cam package to bring it up to 480-500 WHP or so and did not want more, did not need it.

Big power cars end up being dyno and or garage queens more than practical to use for much of anything, cost a lot to build right, less reliable, outright dangerous in certain situations, I have never wanted one and the FiST is the highest HP to weight car I have built for the street to date and 300/300 more than most can really use most of the time, torque steer is a bit entertaining but not great fun in some cases.

 

[RAAMaudio]

I ordered the race version of the Powerflex bushings but they sent a mix of race and street as it was all they had and no production planned for awhile, this was around June 2014 or so. The rears are the street, front LCA rear bushings are race or they just make one I believe, the front LCA ones are street, sways are race(still running the stock bar with Steeda end links) steering rack is aluminum from Gun-Runner, BC coilovers with 8/7k swift springs, dampers set pretty soft and the ride is suprisingly good but needs stiffened up for more serious use though still handles amazingly well. I was going to swap to all race bushings later on but I am happy with how it worked out so left them as they are and the rears are a pretty tough job as ackward to work on at least in a press, I would likely of used my big C clamp press instead and made whatever tool needed if none fit, in fact I had to make them using the press anyway.

Fitting 9" wide wheels up front was relatively easy, the rear is a tough job, requires pulling and rolling the fenders and a camber change but the camber really should be changed to keep the balance designed into the front and rear more equal than just doing the front as most will do.

 

[M-Sport fan]

450whp is the sweet spot for real world use. I'm right, and everyone else is wrong.

^^^

 

[M-Sport fan]

steering rack is aluminum from Gun-Runner

They actually make a complete, 'drop-in' replacement alloy steering rack for these cars (or did you adapt/engineer their part to work with our system?), electrically assisted and all??

Are they available with closer, 'tightened' ratios at all, or just stock?

HOW much weight was saved with this mod/part?

 

[alphanumeric]

I'd love to have the LSD in my car but I don't know of any shop that would do it and I sure as hell wouldn't do a job that big myself.

 

[Hellboy's_Fist]

My goal before I bought the vehicle and now even more so after owning is 285-300whp. That said I want that with an LSD and forged internals/stiffer valve springs so I can raise the redline considerably. I don't mind the lower overall hp when you consider getting more more use out of the first two gears especially.

 

[alphanumeric]

so I can raise the redline considerably.

I believe there is a hard cap at 7700 RPM.

 

[jeff]

Great thread Rick and ditto others, sad to see you go.

You and I chatted a bit between 2006-2010 over on subaruforester.org where i was pretty active, my tag there was greentrees and I had a VF39'd XT for many years before I sold it. So there is some history and I've read your stuff since my Subaru days and appreciate your approach and wise words both then with the XT and now with the FiST. Kind of neat to see us both buying and modding these niche cars. Maybe in a few years when we've both moved beyond the FiST we'll end up on a 3rd enthusiast forum together!

 

[Waterfan]

I believe there is a hard cap at 7700 RPM.

Springs will give out or injectors (lean-out/detonate?) or both? Or neither?