Lets talk Spring Load, Not the usual Spring Rate thread

[M-Sport fan]

True, but if you've ever seen that video I posted of the French RT2 crews practicing in the maritime mountains for one of the French National Rally Championship rounds, that did not seem to hurt them all that much, given the crazy turn-in and rotation they were getting around those switchback/hairpin/decreasing radius turns there.

Granted, yes, their cars were perfectly setup/corner weighted/balanced, rigid reinforced unibodies/cages, they have hydraulic hand brakes, and are on the equivalent of 00 tread wear, semi-slick tarmac tires.

Found that video;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_I01DKpRSc

 

[Fusion Works]

That car doesn't sit any higher than stock.

 

[M-Sport fan]

Interesting comments on this post - someone from Poland installed the R1 struts and shocks. Adjustment range and body diameter actually looks very similar to the B14 (1.5-2”), just black with pinspanner lockings, probably a longer strut insert with different valving. Down in the comments the OP mentions the R1 rears are divorced and non-adjustable, so the front is really only there for corner balancing

https://www.reddit.com/r/FiestaST/comments/r9vs8u View: https://www.reddit.com/r/FiestaST/comments/r9vs8u/last_rallycross_of_the_year_testing_out_newly/


Same person/car - Fiesta SE knuckles maybe not actually much different besides the alignment and steering ratio. Caliper appears to mount in the same place which agrees with what I’ve found elsewhere (The base Fiesta uses a smaller caliper/bracket than the ST)

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V6S_Xtkzmto

Those are the same ones which were installed on the ARA L2WD (limited 2 wheel drive) class Fiesta ST of northwest based competitors Chase Hovinga & crew.

https://wheelwell.com/chase-hovinga/2drl/2016-ford-fiesta/6uh3/m-sport-suspension-r1

I spoke to them before and after NEFR 2018, and they said that even though the front setup went right through the unibody strut tower top on one side (due to not doing quite enough extra welded-in plate reinforcement there, just like we were speaking about in this thread!) on an exceptionally hard jump landing, or compression hit, they were perfect otherwise, and they did finish that rally 3rd in class.

 

[Rutschpartie]

Those are the same ones which were installed on the ARA L2WD (limited 2 wheel drive) class Fiesta ST of northwest based competitors Chase Hovinga & crew.

https://wheelwell.com/chase-hovinga/2drl/2016-ford-fiesta/6uh3/m-sport-suspension-r1

I spoke to them before and after NEFR 2018, and they said that even though the front setup went right through the unibody strut tower top on one side (due to not doing quite enough extra welded-in plate reinforcement there, just like we were speaking about in this thread!) on an exceptionally hard jump landing, or compression hit, they were perfect otherwise, and they did finish that rally 3rd in class.

fyi: I asked msport if they have R1 (not sure if Mk8 is the same as the Mk7 dampers here) suspension in stock but due to low demand they did not order new ones from bilstein, they only offered rear ones (i asked for gravel spec setup+springs). I directly asked bilstein some weeks ago if they can provide the front dampers, received 2 mails back, but only with the info that they have to find out if this is possible. We are a small amateur racing team doing short endurance races with a Honda, the fiesta is just my private car, but I told them we need it for racing , so that bilstein "motosport" takes it more serious. The way they talked to me on the phone lets me think that if you ask as a "street" customer they will just ignore the request... :/ So maybe it is better to try to get them via a 3rd renowned team/shop. Maybe also if more people ask bilstein for this, they will think about reproducing some of those...

 

[Fusion Works]

I have been trying to get Bilstein to reproduce the parts required for the motorsport strut assemblies and they have shown no interest in building those parts again. This is the drawback to dealing with a worldwide corporation. They tolerate the motorsports market, but they really don't care about the specialized components required.
This is kinda odd considering the number of cars on the market with a strut and the number of those cars converted to track use.

 

[M-Sport fan]

fyi: I asked msport if they have R1 (not sure if Mk8 is the same as the Mk7 dampers here) suspension in stock but due to low demand they did not order new ones from bilstein, they only offered rear ones (i asked for gravel spec setup+springs). I directly asked bilstein some weeks ago if they can provide the front dampers, received 2 mails back, but only with the info that they have to find out if this is possible. We are a small amateur racing team doing short endurance races with a Honda, the fiesta is just my private car, but I told them we need it for racing , so that bilstein "motosport" takes it more serious. The way they talked to me on the phone lets me think that if you ask as a "street" customer they will just ignore the request... :/ So maybe it is better to try to get them via a 3rd renowned team/shop. Maybe also if more people ask Bilstein for this, they will think about reproducing some of those...

This is no surprise, as it was an 'upgrade' option on the (Mk7/7.5) R1 cars (over the factory stock suspension), and all of the R2 level cars got the Reigers.

At this point, I think that even the R1 cars get/are allowed to have the Reigers by FIA rules, but I am not certain about that.
(They've now allowed the R1/rally 5 cars to have the 5 speed Sadev sequential from the R2T/Rally 4 car. )

Yes, any car here competing in the US equivalent of R1 using these coil overs already had them on the car at least 5 years ago.

 

[tri-pedaler]

Another thing to keep in mind, the Fiesta ST has less rear camber than the base model. I suspect they did this to "loosen up" the car and let it rotate a little more. This would give the car a more playful feel to the normal driver. The drawback is once the car gets to a certain slip angle you lose more grip on the back than if you had a meaningful amount of negative camber on the rear. Camber adjustment is something the Fiesta is lacking and really needs when driving hard.

Definitely. One thing I’ve noticed lately it how much negative rear camber fwd cars on the road have - once you start noticing you can’t un-see it. Obviously this is so John Doe doesn’t snap oversteer his CUV when driving too fast (ok, exaggerating…).

One of my favorite press lines about the FiST is that it “lift off oversteered it’s way” into Car and Drivers 10 Best list (knocking out the FoST incidentally).

But…that playfulness - rotating the rear in tight corners - might not be as good for long sweepers. Camber adjustment would be nice. And IRS. And…

 

[M-Sport fan]

But…that playfulness - rotating the rear in tight corners - might not be as good for long sweepers. Camber adjustment would be nice. And IRS. And…

....power to the rear wheels as well

 

[Rhys1983]

....power to the rear wheels as well

That would be the M-Sport R5 rally car that you’re after @M-Sport fan! If only they were cheaper!

 

[Rhys1983]

With all this talk of spring load, rates and suspension, another important factor in how the car handles would be the anti roll bars or sway bars. I know that the pre ‘16 cars have a 19mm front bar and the post ‘16 cars have a 21mm front bar.
This has got me thinking, would it not be more beneficial to fit the smaller bar on rough roads for better compliance and grip from the front suspension?

 

[M-Sport fan]

That would be the M-Sport R5 rally car that you’re after @M-Sport fan! If only they were cheaper!

...and then their gearboxes and suspensions did not have to be re-built every 4K miles or less...

I am also guessing that I would be pulled over by local gendarmes quite frequently due to the extensive cage alone, even if I could make it quiet enough exhaust-wise to not grab their attention.

 

[Dialcaliper]

With all this talk of spring load, rates and suspension, another important factor in how the car handles would be the anti roll bars or sway bars. I know that the pre ‘16 cars have a 19mm front bar and the post ‘16 cars have a 21mm front bar.
This has got me thinking, would it not be more beneficial to fit the smaller bar on rough roads for better compliance and grip from the front suspension?

Like everything, it’s a compromise between grip and control. With rally spring rates and long travel shocks you might be able to get away with it, but the car will handle and roll like a trophy truck. Most rally cars use at least some sway bar - usually stock or slightly stiffer as it’s the most direct way to influence body roll and oversteer/understeer and still maintain control of the car in a slide. Some rallycross people disconnect them, but most cars in high level rally motorsports use them, at least on gravel and especially on tarmac

The exception to this is snow and ice, where grip levels are so low that it’s worth compromising body roll to get more tire contact - if you look close you’ll see in the winter rallies that there’s a bit more body roll going on. The same might apply for stages that are very Sandy or muddy.

 

[M-Sport fan]

^^^Correct, except that for some even dry gravel rallies, if the surface is loose enough, (or they are first car/first few cars off, therefore 'sweeping' the stage road for all of those starting later) they may do away with the rear bar, and even lessen the tension on the front.

All of this also depends upon whether it is a FWD, or AWD car as well.

 

[tri-pedaler]

....power to the rear wheels as well

the dream lives on of the fiesta RS

 

[M-Sport fan]

the dream lives on of the fiesta RS

I am still wondering if anyone in England has had an R5/Rally 2 Fiesta built sans any visible cage (but still with any other welded-in chassis reinforcement) for road use, and if so, were they able to get it legally registered/insured by their MOT there??

This is probably not a difficult feat to accomplish with one of the newer AWD Rally 3 Fiestas, I am guessing, IF M-Sport would even build you one without a full cage.

 

[Rhys1983]

I am still wondering if anyone in England has had an R5/Rally 2 Fiesta built sans any visible cage (but still with any other welded-in chassis reinforcement) for road use, and if so, were they able to get it legally registered/insured by their MOT there??

This is probably not a difficult feat to accomplish with one of the newer AWD Rally 3 Fiestas, I am guessing, IF M-Sport would even build you one without a full cage.

Not that I’ve heard of any. I’d be tempted to do it if I had the cash! You do see a few escort mk1 and mk2’s about which are like a rally spec for the road. The fiesta ST for some reason is more popular with the lowered, pops and bangs boy racer type crowd or track racing over here more than rally fans. That’s fine as everybody’s different, but what this means is that almost all modifications and aftermarket parts are geard towards lowering and stance or track driving rather than rallying or rough road driving.

 

[M-Sport fan]

^^^Yes, these cars are not very popular, or well known at all over here (most do not even know, or care in the least about their rallying heritage, save for Ken Block's rallying/Hooning use of them).

You see how many on here just want to slam (if not fully 'stance') their rides to the ground, which (to me at least) makes the car totally useless, and defeats the purpose of why I bought it in the first place.

Most likely the reason why we are not offered any real functional suspension upgrades (either factory ride height, but higher rate linear springs, or affordable, strong, coil over setups which do not slam the unibody to the ground).

There is also a whole movement over here with slamming and stancing various AUDI models, which again (maybe even more so than our rides) makes absolutely no sense to me at all, from an AWD functionality viewpoint (even on supposedly functional, but heft adding 'bagged' systems).

In my youth, I might have thought that this looked 'cool', as road race cars were always a bit lower in ride height, but now I just think it looks ridiculous, even 'cartoonish'.

 

[Rhys1983]

^^^Yes, these cars are not very popular, or well known at all over here (most do not even know, or care in the least about their rallying heritage, save for Ken Block's rallying/Hooning use of them).

You see how many on here just want to slam (if not fully 'stance') their rides to the ground, which (to me at least) makes the car totally useless, and defeats the purpose of why I bought it in the first place.

Most likely the reason why we are not offered any real functional suspension upgrades (either factory ride height, but higher rate linear springs, or affordable, strong, coil over setups which do not slam the unibody to the ground).

There is also a whole movement over here with slamming and stancing various AUDI models, which again (maybe even more so than our rides) makes absolutely no sense to me at all, from an AWD functionality viewpoint (even on supposedly functional, but heft adding 'bagged' systems).

In my youth, I might have thought that this looked 'cool', as road race cars were always a bit lower in ride height, but now I just think it looks ridiculous, even 'cartoonish'.

Yes, I’m struggling to see anything suitable for what we want from our cars!
I did see a company called flatout suspension who do make various rally and track suspension for the fiesta st. I’m not sure if they ship to us in the UK thought?
Have you looked into them or heard anything about how they perform?

 

[M-Sport fan]

Yes, I’m struggling to see anything suitable for what we want from our cars!
I did see a company called flatout suspension who do make various rally and track suspension for the fiesta st. I’m not sure if they ship to us in the UK thought?
Have you looked into them or heard anything about how they perform?

They were suggested to me by one of the serious SCCA RallyCrossers on here, JDG (think; your 'autocross', NOT the 600 AWHP, 2 second 0-60, Global wheel to wheel type bonkers stuff ).

But, when I tried to contact them, they seemed totally disinterested in attempting any builds, and never got back to me after the initial contact.
I guess the market being so very limited for this type of suspension quells any enthusiasm they had to develop and build any.

Same goes for Silver/Neo suspensions, who actually had a member on here who competes in the limited 2 wheel drive class of the American Rally Association in a FiST (John Concha/jcr557) try out a prototype set of their gravel spec coil overs.

I am wondering what a B6 revalve/correct valving match to a set of Swift Spec R springs would cost, and then just use spacers for the front struts, and weight jackers/height adjusters or thicker and denser poly spring pads for the rears, if the setup is too low for my uses.

 

[Rhys1983]

They were suggested to me by one of the serious SCCA RallyCrossers on here, JDG (think; your 'autocross', NOT the 600 AWHP, 2 second 0-60, Global wheel to wheel type bonkers stuff ).

But, when I tried to contact them, they seemed totally disinterested in attempting any builds, and never got back to me after the initial contact.
I guess the market being so very limited for this type of suspension quells any enthusiasm they had to develop and build any.

Same goes for Silver/Neo suspensions, who actually had a member on here who competes in the limited 2 wheel drive class of the American Rally Association in a FiST (John Concha/jcr557) try out a prototype set of their gravel spec coil overs.

I am wondering what a B6 revalve/correct valving match to a set of Swift Spec R springs would cost, and then just use spacers for the front struts, and weight jackers/height adjusters or thicker and denser poly spring pads for the rears, if the setup is too low for my uses.

I did get this back from Flatout suspension today -

To be fair, it does look like a good kit, but I don’t know of many people that have them on their cars to get an idea of what they’re like.

The B6 with the swift spec r springs could work out well, but I noticed that they’re the same rate front and back, so I’m not sure if it would make the car oversteer too much?